BSAR
Well-Known Member
Thats good that she is doing better! I hope she continues to improve!
Resolved! Dotty looking better
- Thread starter mouse_chalk
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Bo B Bunny
Well-Known Member
Poor baby girl! I hope she starts eating better!
OH and tell me this - Could she be picking up on you and Steve worrying? and then worrying herself or the bunny form of that? and not eating cause she's stressed?
OH and tell me this - Could she be picking up on you and Steve worrying? and then worrying herself or the bunny form of that? and not eating cause she's stressed?
If her stomach is full of gas did anyone give her simethicone?
The only thing that I have been thinking is that when my buns are off food I give simethicone, benebac, pine-apple juice andpedialyte. water and don't emphasis the food.
the 2 things that we ( I use)generally use (simethicone and benebac ) weren't used with her.
if you started looking around I'm am sure that you could find a probiotic over there for horses ..and basically most of them can be used on rabbits
I'm sure that the vets will get things going again
but it might be worth it for a few of us from the US to send you some benebac
I once read on etherbun a person who was advised by their vet to use a small amount of extra virgn light olive oil for stasis rather than a petroleum product . The thinking behind it was that it was natural rather than oil-based. I have never used it ;would be too afraid unless I knew of a large number of others that used it.
Ifeel very bad for you and Dotty and esp that she had to stay at the hosital. Poor thing has been through a lot.
At some point after things settle down I will post what is contained in benebac and it can be compared with horse probiotics over there.
i will watch this post all day and hope everything turns out well.
i would be more concerned re. her not being home than her actual physcial condition. but I'm sure that she will be fine.
I'm so sorry that this turned into such a great big bad story
ray:
The only thing that I have been thinking is that when my buns are off food I give simethicone, benebac, pine-apple juice andpedialyte. water and don't emphasis the food.
the 2 things that we ( I use)generally use (simethicone and benebac ) weren't used with her.
if you started looking around I'm am sure that you could find a probiotic over there for horses ..and basically most of them can be used on rabbits
I'm sure that the vets will get things going again
but it might be worth it for a few of us from the US to send you some benebac
I once read on etherbun a person who was advised by their vet to use a small amount of extra virgn light olive oil for stasis rather than a petroleum product . The thinking behind it was that it was natural rather than oil-based. I have never used it ;would be too afraid unless I knew of a large number of others that used it.
Ifeel very bad for you and Dotty and esp that she had to stay at the hosital. Poor thing has been through a lot.
At some point after things settle down I will post what is contained in benebac and it can be compared with horse probiotics over there.
i will watch this post all day and hope everything turns out well.
i would be more concerned re. her not being home than her actual physcial condition. but I'm sure that she will be fine.
I'm so sorry that this turned into such a great big bad story
ray:
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
On my way out the door but wanted to post quickly--
Maureen--the list of ingredients in bene-bac should be in my last post on pg 3. It may be like horse probiotics, I don't know anything about those.
And if you've had good luck with Fibre-plex, Tracy, that's enough for me!
I personally don't like the idea of using oil to lubricate the gut. First, acids and bile in the stomach and high small intestine break up oily stuff so that it may not get into later parts of the intestines, which is apparently where the impaction is. I dunno though. It's probably the fiber in Fibre-plex that makes it work.
Also note: all of my opinions are based solely on what I know about physiology and drugs and medicine, not personal experience. Textbooks and theories don't always work out in real life the way you want.
I guess the zantac could decrease stomach upset from metacam if it can cause ulcers due to increased acid. I don't know exactly how metacam causes stomach upset, so that's totally a possibility.
Muffin just did a hilarious giant dbf and I'm wishing the same for Ms. Dotty. I think simethicone, water, and fibre-plex or an equine probiotic will probably work best, along with making her eat a bit on her own. With a lot of gas in her belly, the simethicone and probably some bunny tummy rubs can help her get back to normal.
[[hugs]]
Maureen--the list of ingredients in bene-bac should be in my last post on pg 3. It may be like horse probiotics, I don't know anything about those.
And if you've had good luck with Fibre-plex, Tracy, that's enough for me!
I personally don't like the idea of using oil to lubricate the gut. First, acids and bile in the stomach and high small intestine break up oily stuff so that it may not get into later parts of the intestines, which is apparently where the impaction is. I dunno though. It's probably the fiber in Fibre-plex that makes it work.
Also note: all of my opinions are based solely on what I know about physiology and drugs and medicine, not personal experience. Textbooks and theories don't always work out in real life the way you want.
I guess the zantac could decrease stomach upset from metacam if it can cause ulcers due to increased acid. I don't know exactly how metacam causes stomach upset, so that's totally a possibility.
Muffin just did a hilarious giant dbf and I'm wishing the same for Ms. Dotty. I think simethicone, water, and fibre-plex or an equine probiotic will probably work best, along with making her eat a bit on her own. With a lot of gas in her belly, the simethicone and probably some bunny tummy rubs can help her get back to normal.
[[hugs]]
I have not used Fibreplex with an impaction or anything major, I just want to clarify that. For what I have used it for, it has been great, but having had a look at the ingredients, I have been having a large rethink as to it's usage and when I would be willing to use it.
I was also just wondering what are the key things that need to be in a probiotic for it to be beneficial to rabbits?
I was also just wondering what are the key things that need to be in a probiotic for it to be beneficial to rabbits?
mouse_chalk
Well-Known Member
Just a quick-ish post since I have to get dinner etc sorted....
She's home! She's been eating some hay at the vets, but not loads I don't think.
The vet wants to keep her on the antibiotics that have been started- she had me inject her while we were there. It was surprisingly ok- not at all as scary as I'd thought it would be. I'm pleased that I now know how to do this.
She doesn't want to use any more metaclopromide, but she will carry on with the Zantac injections- more frequently than before. So we have one syringe loaded to give her later tonight and another to give her in the morning. Then she has a vet appt at our local branch at 12pm anyway with Clara.
Ummm... She wants to keep her on the metacam to address any pain that she might be having from the gas, etc with her guts being so slow as well....
We're to keep giving her critical care and she liked the sound of the 'bunny pesto' so we can continue with that but keep offering her fresh veggies and hay to try and tempt her. Give her enough critical care etc to keep her going but not to fill her up so much that she wont want to eat....
I mentioned the simeticone and she said to go for it. She's never tried it herself but has heard of it being used with bunnies etc etc. I did give her some last night but I did ask a couple of days ago and wasn't sure if it would interfere with what she was having from the vets at the time, hence I hadn't done before then. We'll be giving her some now though.....
Will be back later! Nightmare day and week overall!!
anic:anic:anic:anic:
She's home! She's been eating some hay at the vets, but not loads I don't think.
The vet wants to keep her on the antibiotics that have been started- she had me inject her while we were there. It was surprisingly ok- not at all as scary as I'd thought it would be. I'm pleased that I now know how to do this.
She doesn't want to use any more metaclopromide, but she will carry on with the Zantac injections- more frequently than before. So we have one syringe loaded to give her later tonight and another to give her in the morning. Then she has a vet appt at our local branch at 12pm anyway with Clara.
Ummm... She wants to keep her on the metacam to address any pain that she might be having from the gas, etc with her guts being so slow as well....
We're to keep giving her critical care and she liked the sound of the 'bunny pesto' so we can continue with that but keep offering her fresh veggies and hay to try and tempt her. Give her enough critical care etc to keep her going but not to fill her up so much that she wont want to eat....
I mentioned the simeticone and she said to go for it. She's never tried it herself but has heard of it being used with bunnies etc etc. I did give her some last night but I did ask a couple of days ago and wasn't sure if it would interfere with what she was having from the vets at the time, hence I hadn't done before then. We'll be giving her some now though.....
Will be back later! Nightmare day and week overall!!
anic:anic:anic:anic:
http://www.revivalanimal.com/store/p/1401-BeneBac-Pet-Gel-Powder.aspx
This is off the powder form of bene-bac powder
Dextrose, matodextrin, sodium silica aluminate, dried Bifidobacterium bifidum, dried lacotbacillis fermentum, dried lactobacillus casei, dried enterococcus faecium,dried lactobacillus, plantarum, dried Pediococcus acidlacticil
( I could barely read this off the back of the bottle since the writing is so small but it is close_)
http://www.petfooddirect.com/store/product_detail.asp?pf%5Fid=60551203&dept%5Fid=684&brand%5Fid=807&Page=
Ihave not used the Probios but it is sold inexpensively at farm stores. I am fairly sure that Randy has posted that it can be used safely for a rabbit
This is off the powder form of bene-bac powder
Dextrose, matodextrin, sodium silica aluminate, dried Bifidobacterium bifidum, dried lacotbacillis fermentum, dried lactobacillus casei, dried enterococcus faecium,dried lactobacillus, plantarum, dried Pediococcus acidlacticil
( I could barely read this off the back of the bottle since the writing is so small but it is close_)
http://www.petfooddirect.com/store/product_detail.asp?pf%5Fid=60551203&dept%5Fid=684&brand%5Fid=807&Page=
Ihave not used the Probios but it is sold inexpensively at farm stores. I am fairly sure that Randy has posted that it can be used safely for a rabbit
Simethicone cannot be absorbed by the body so works right within the intestines and won"t Interfere.
Then again you don't want to give it constantly maybe 1-3 times per day
Then again you don't want to give it constantly maybe 1-3 times per day
Hazel-Mom
Well-Known Member
tonyshuman wrote:
Hmm.. according to "Textbook of Rabbit Medicine" By Frances Harcourt-Brown, "Lactobacillus and E.Coli spp. are usually absent of the normal gut flora of adult rabbits,but may be found in rabbits fed on a highcarbo-hydrate, low fibre diet."
She also says that the use of probiotics in adult rabbits remains controversial, as there are no proven benefits in adult rabbits, though experiments have shown that they are beneficial in newly weaned ones. (page 106, paraphrased)
Hmm.. according to "Textbook of Rabbit Medicine" By Frances Harcourt-Brown, "Lactobacillus and E.Coli spp. are usually absent of the normal gut flora of adult rabbits,but may be found in rabbits fed on a highcarbo-hydrate, low fibre diet."
She also says that the use of probiotics in adult rabbits remains controversial, as there are no proven benefits in adult rabbits, though experiments have shown that they are beneficial in newly weaned ones. (page 106, paraphrased)
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure before Randy has said that the lactobacillius and enterococcus are the important bacteria needed in a rabbit's gut. That's why brewers' yeast (saccharomyces cervasiae) and people yogurt (mostly lactobaccilus acidophilus) aren't correct probiotics for bunnies.
Trying to find some other support for this, and came up with this which says it's not lactobacillus in the gut but bacteriodes: http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...4bd16247fcdbb4bc74e6e6a9fde&ie=/sdarticle.pdf
Also this: "Treatments we do not do
Some treatments have the potential to make the problem worse. Probiotics and yogurt have milk starches and sugar that can feed the Clostridium bacteria. Lactobacillus has not been shown to be of any benefit, and if it is stressful to give this orally to your bunny could actually be detrimental. The same applies when you try to feed your rabbit "night dropping". The proper word for night droppings is cecotropes. Hairball remedies can also cause a problem. The enzymes in pineapple are unable to dissolve a keratin mass in the stomach, and might even provied the Clostridium with sugar so it can keep on proliferating in the cecum. " from http://www.lbah.com/rabbits/gistasis.htm (has pics of a necropsy--graphic)
However, with her taking antibiotics she needs to be on some kind of probiotic, I think. The ProBios mentioned by Maureen is best if you can at all get it, but FibrePlex may be ok.
Trying to find some other support for this, and came up with this which says it's not lactobacillus in the gut but bacteriodes: http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...4bd16247fcdbb4bc74e6e6a9fde&ie=/sdarticle.pdf
Also this: "Treatments we do not do
Some treatments have the potential to make the problem worse. Probiotics and yogurt have milk starches and sugar that can feed the Clostridium bacteria. Lactobacillus has not been shown to be of any benefit, and if it is stressful to give this orally to your bunny could actually be detrimental. The same applies when you try to feed your rabbit "night dropping". The proper word for night droppings is cecotropes. Hairball remedies can also cause a problem. The enzymes in pineapple are unable to dissolve a keratin mass in the stomach, and might even provied the Clostridium with sugar so it can keep on proliferating in the cecum. " from http://www.lbah.com/rabbits/gistasis.htm (has pics of a necropsy--graphic)
However, with her taking antibiotics she needs to be on some kind of probiotic, I think. The ProBios mentioned by Maureen is best if you can at all get it, but FibrePlex may be ok.
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
From Diana Krempels: http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html
She doesn't want us to quote her article--you have to go read it yourself--but sections I.E on oily laxatives and II.E. on Lactobacilius are helpful.
Oily laxatives--sometimes the problem is a dry clump of stuff and the oil just prevents that dry clump from getting rehydrated and moving. Lactobacillus--not a normal resident of the GI tract, but can help, not sure why.
She doesn't want us to quote her article--you have to go read it yourself--but sections I.E on oily laxatives and II.E. on Lactobacilius are helpful.
Oily laxatives--sometimes the problem is a dry clump of stuff and the oil just prevents that dry clump from getting rehydrated and moving. Lactobacillus--not a normal resident of the GI tract, but can help, not sure why.
there is a lot of controversey on probiotics
I didn't read the provided here links today but many experts feel that the probiotics are destroyed in the gut of the rabbit and are useless.
I became reconvinced because Randy uses them and promotes the use
I have had good results myself
so it won't hurt
I didn't read the provided here links today but many experts feel that the probiotics are destroyed in the gut of the rabbit and are useless.
I became reconvinced because Randy uses them and promotes the use
I have had good results myself
so it won't hurt
Hazel-Mom
Well-Known Member
If I remember right, Randy uses them becaus Lactobacillus acidifies the gut, and that can be beneficial in aiding rabbit digestion. He doesn't use them to recolonize the guts, which makes sense, since they contain bacteria which aren't normally found in rabbits, plus they don't generally survive the acid in the stomach anyway.
If Dotty is getting Zantac, though, which is an acid reducer, I wonder how helpfull they are in her case.
If Dotty is getting Zantac, though, which is an acid reducer, I wonder how helpfull they are in her case.
mouse_chalk
Well-Known Member
angieluv wrote:
We gave her 2ml last night. Is that an ok dose? She's about 14lbs....
Thanks guys for all the info re probiotics. I must admit my lacking-in-sleep-state is somewhat baffled by it all but I'm working through it
I did find this, on the Protexin site (just went there to look at what else they sell really), and wondered if it was any better:
http://www.protexin.com/vet/product.php?id=17
I've not seen our vets use it but it is available to buy online...
I will have to research more about horse probiotics. Not sure if I can get anything in time for this incident (I REALLY hope it doesn't go on long enough for me to order and receive goods online!) but if I can get some stuff for the future knowing it's good, I'd be happy. The bunny box of tricks can always do with extra stuff....
I will read through the other stuff and do some researching.....
We have to give Dotty the next injection at 11pm. I'm a little nervous at doing it without the vet there, but I feel fairly confident that I managed it first time at the vets office, and it went well. Provided Steve holds Dotty still. I have always watched them carefully when they do injections and noted how they do it, so I wonder if that helped...
I honestly really love this vet, Vicky. We have seen her before, I think once with Chalk when she was sick, and a while back when Snowy hurt her paw. She really does seem to know her stuff about bunnies. We were chatting for a good while about various antibiotics, simeticone, etc. She's going to be at our local branch on Saturday so we'll see her again if we go back there. Some of the bloods should come back tomorrow, and she said she will call us personally either tomorrow or Saturday to tell us the results. She also loves bunnies! And she didn't laugh when I told her about RO! Plus we asked for more Metacam and she gave us a huge bottle instead of a little one, since it's all being paid for by insurance, we thought we might as well do a sneaky stock up. Plus 2 bags of critical care.
Thanks Maureen
We gave her 2ml last night. Is that an ok dose? She's about 14lbs....
Thanks guys for all the info re probiotics. I must admit my lacking-in-sleep-state is somewhat baffled by it all but I'm working through it
I did find this, on the Protexin site (just went there to look at what else they sell really), and wondered if it was any better:
http://www.protexin.com/vet/product.php?id=17
I've not seen our vets use it but it is available to buy online...
I will have to research more about horse probiotics. Not sure if I can get anything in time for this incident (I REALLY hope it doesn't go on long enough for me to order and receive goods online!) but if I can get some stuff for the future knowing it's good, I'd be happy. The bunny box of tricks can always do with extra stuff....
I will read through the other stuff and do some researching.....
We have to give Dotty the next injection at 11pm. I'm a little nervous at doing it without the vet there, but I feel fairly confident that I managed it first time at the vets office, and it went well. Provided Steve holds Dotty still. I have always watched them carefully when they do injections and noted how they do it, so I wonder if that helped...
I honestly really love this vet, Vicky. We have seen her before, I think once with Chalk when she was sick, and a while back when Snowy hurt her paw. She really does seem to know her stuff about bunnies. We were chatting for a good while about various antibiotics, simeticone, etc. She's going to be at our local branch on Saturday so we'll see her again if we go back there. Some of the bloods should come back tomorrow, and she said she will call us personally either tomorrow or Saturday to tell us the results. She also loves bunnies! And she didn't laugh when I told her about RO! Plus we asked for more Metacam and she gave us a huge bottle instead of a little one, since it's all being paid for by insurance, we thought we might as well do a sneaky stock up. Plus 2 bags of critical care.
2ml at a time is fine for such a big girl
I just reread this page again and realized that none of us really know what's going on with her
we're just throwing out ideas.
I think what is confusing is that she was doing well after surgery and then at about the time that she should have been just fine ..she wasn't. (confused emoticon)
Maureen
I just reread this page again and realized that none of us really know what's going on with her
we're just throwing out ideas.
I think what is confusing is that she was doing well after surgery and then at about the time that she should have been just fine ..she wasn't. (confused emoticon)
Maureen
Jenson
Well-Known Member
Keeping Dotty in my thoughts and sending healing vibes! Feel better soon big girl.
TinysMom
Well-Known Member
I am heading out in about 8 hours and won't be online till probably March 4th....but I want you to know that I'm going to be sending my thoughts and prayers to Dotty that she gets better. In the short time she's been here - she's become one of my favorites (what can I say - I LOVE the big bunnies!)
mouse_chalk
Well-Known Member
angieluv wrote:
It's why I've been so paranoid as well. Last time we had a bunny that wasn't eating for a length of time, it was Chalk with her burst abscess and peritonitis.... I feel better though knowing that there's no sign of that.
I just WISH I knew what it was. I wish bunnies could talk lol, so she could tell me what was wrong and what she wanted me to do to fix it! I'd be on it in seconds.....
Going shortly to feed her some 'bunny pesto' (what I've named my mix of basil, carrot tops, and water lol), a bit of critical care and the injection..... And simeticone....
Lets hope Dotters (someone called her that here somewhere and I can't stop calling her that now!) is better in the morning....
That's exactly it lol. And that's exactly what's puzzling our vets too.
It's why I've been so paranoid as well. Last time we had a bunny that wasn't eating for a length of time, it was Chalk with her burst abscess and peritonitis.... I feel better though knowing that there's no sign of that.
I just WISH I knew what it was. I wish bunnies could talk lol, so she could tell me what was wrong and what she wanted me to do to fix it! I'd be on it in seconds.....
Going shortly to feed her some 'bunny pesto' (what I've named my mix of basil, carrot tops, and water lol), a bit of critical care and the injection..... And simeticone....
Lets hope Dotters (someone called her that here somewhere and I can't stop calling her that now!) is better in the morning....
slavetoabunny
Well-Known Member
ray: for Dotty.
