Princess's and Prince's of the Fancy....

[BlueCamasRabbitry]

Bo B Bunny wrote:

BSAR wrote:

Bo B Bunny wrote:

BSAR wrote:

Bo B Bunny wrote:

BSAR wrote:

My 4h leader is a good person to turn to. She has experienced this before and she knows what to do so that you don't have to go to the vet.

Wasn't she the one that told you it was ok to breed that older doe?

No she was not. Please dont bring that into this.

If she was involved with that - it's going to be important to note.

And I said she wasn't. So..... besides that has NOTHING to do with this.

Don't cop an attitude with me. I remember that the 4H leader WAS involved with that somehow. NO ONE likes this situation and believes the doe needs to go to the vet. It's gotten several people upset at how this was handled.

No the 4-H leader was not involved with that. That was our old 4-H leader who didn't know anything about rabbits and she wouldn't ever say anything about breeding like that. That was a friend of ours who said it.

Emily

 

[BSAR]

Bo B Bunny wrote:

BSAR wrote:

Bo B Bunny wrote:

BSAR wrote:

Bo B Bunny wrote:

BSAR wrote:

My 4h leader is a good person to turn to. She has experienced this before and she knows what to do so that you don't have to go to the vet.

Wasn't she the one that told you it was ok to breed that older doe?

No she was not. Please dont bring that into this.

If she was involved with that - it's going to be important to note.

And I said she wasn't. So..... besides that has NOTHING to do with this.

Don't cop an attitude with me. I remember that the 4H leader WAS involved with that somehow. NO ONE likes this situation and believes the doe needs to go to the vet. It's gotten several people upset at how this was handled.

Our current 4h leader had nothing to do with Lily!! Neither did our last 4h leader since she didn't know anything about rabbits.

We will talk to our current 4h leader and our mom about going to the vet with Minnie tomorrow.

 

[naturestee]

Penicillin is safe to give if the person is properly trained and the dose is correct. Pipp is rightfully concernedabout yougiving shots without any training. Please have a vetor vet tech show you! I also agree that it should be given subcutaneously (sub-q)= under the skin, not inthe muscle. Shots in the muscle can be dangerous if done wrong and should be left to professionals.

Needles should be changed each time for the same reason they do in hospitals- prevent contamination. Wouldn't you freak out if your doctor reused an old needle on you, even if it had been used on you previously? There is no good way to clean a needle 100% and even if there's no other patient to cross-contaminate, the body fluids that are on the needle create a perfect place for bacteria to breed.

Please read Pam's post!

 

[Sabine]

I am glad you're taking her to the vet. It is probably better to have a specialist to look at her then and there rather than trying to follow conflicting advice given from a distance. And the one advice, going to the vets, at least is something everyone agrees on! I hope Minnie is going to get through this alright. i wish you all the best.

 

[Bo B Bunny]

Alright then. I knew it was someone you knew.

Just remember that a lot of 4H leader/breeders do tend to worry about not going to the vet over the whole "pet" aspect. You only have a few bunnies where they might have hundreds..... We just don't want to see her suffer and/or die.

 

[Pipp]

BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote:

Pipp wrote:

Ack!! Do NOT give the penicillin into the muscle!

 
Okay, see this is why I'd rather just stick to my leaders' advice.

First penicillin is ok to give, now it's not. I haven't given her any and now I guess I wont. At least I have it on hand in case it's needed though.

Emily, you're smarter than this.

Its obviously okay to give it when USED CORRECTLY and WHEN NEEDED.

You don't know if she has retained a kit or parts of a kit. As Pam said, penicillin won't help.

Your 4-H leader can not be counted on to know for sure. She's come up with some pretty bad advice so far. If you'd rather listen to her over an ARBA judge, I have serious concerns with your judgment.

I think an 18-gage needle is too big for a rabbit, but penicillin can get clogged. I've had good luck mixing the stuff with saline, but this isn't a usual procedure, so let me check into it.

ETA: Naturestee's post is great. Let's stick with that.


sas

 

[BlueCamasRabbitry]

Pipp wrote:

BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote:

Pipp wrote:

Ack!! Do NOT give the penicillin into the muscle!

Okay, see this is why I'd rather just stick to my leaders' advice.

First penicillin is ok to give, now it's not. I haven't given her any and now I guess I wont. At least I have it on hand in case it's needed though.

Emily, you're smarter than this.

Its obviously okay to give it when USED CORRECTLY and WHEN NEEDED. So is it needed? My mom's boyfriend has given shots before. I'm not sure if he's given them to animals, but I'm sure it wasn't humans

You don't know if she has retained a kit or parts of a kit. As Pam said, penicillin won't help.

Your 4-H leader can not be counted on to know for sure. She's come up with some pretty bad advice so far.Thats interesting. What is her "bad advice"??If you'd rather listen to her over an ARBA judge, I have serious concerns with your judgment.

I think an 18-gage needle is too big for a rabbit, but penicillin can get clogged. I've had good luck mixing the stuff with saline, but this isn't a usual procedure, so let me check into it. Okay

ETA: Naturestee's post is great. Let's stick with that.


sas

Well my mom just said we can't take her to the vet. She doesn't care what anyone on here is saying and we've told her everything over and over again. She just wants to stick with whatour 4-H leader says but I don't want too.

Emily

 

[BlueCamasRabbitry]

Okay, question...

Should we give her the Penn or not?
How much? It came in a 100 ml bottle. She weighs 8-ish lbs. That drug calculator didn't help at all, because it doesn't measure in mil, it measures it some other form I've never even heard of.

The syringe is 12 ml.

ETA: On the bottle it says "intramuscular injection only" ???? Should we still give it to her Sub-Q, though?

Emily

 

[Maureen Las]

BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote:

Okay, question...

Should we give her the Penn or not?
How much? It came in a 100 ml bottle. She weighs 8-ish lbs. That drug calculator didn't help at all, because it doesn't measure in mil, it measures it some other form I've never even heard of.

The syringe is 12 ml.

ETA: On the bottle it says "intramuscular injection only" ???? Should we still give it to her Sub-Q, though?

Emily

I have been gone all day and have just come back to this thread.

It is very disconcerting to see this kind of behavior going on in the infirmary
I am not used to it .

If members ask for advice then we attempt to give answers . Most members are receptive to it. You have been given answers and are not receptive .

The rabbit needs a vet

intramuscular pencillin will kill your rabbit so don't give it; the vet can instruct you on subqutaneous injections .
You can work this out with your mom
End of story

 

[Starlight Rabbitry]

BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote:

Okay, question...

Should we give her the Penn or not?
How much? It came in a 100 ml bottle. She weighs 8-ish lbs. That drug calculator didn't help at all, because it doesn't measure in mil, it measures it some other form I've never even heard of.

The syringe is 12 ml.

ETA: On the bottle it says "intramuscular injection only" ???? Should we still give it to her Sub-Q, though?

Emily

This whole reason right here is why she should have been taken to the vet in the first place. The vet would have been able to give you antibiotics and shown you how to properly administer them.

I also feel that no matter what anyone says on here, you aren't going to listen and will just consult your 4-H leader. Well, I just have to tell you that I am glad you have a leader to turn to. Let me just say this: from a previous post it seems as though your 4-H leader has to o.k. a vet visit. IT IS YOUR RABBIT! So far, you seem to have put her life in jeopardy. I really hope she is going to be o.k.

BTW, I have been raising Dutch and Jersey Woolies since 1991...that's 18 years of knowledge and I still have to bring animals to the vet on occassion as I need anitibiotics sometimes. I do not trust anything that isn't straight from my vet.

I really hope your 4-H leader would join as I would like to hear her expertise.

Sharon

 

[Pipp]

12-gage is definitely huge, so hold off on the penicillin. The feed store stuff is meant for large animals. Hang tough, I'll consult with a few people for you.


sas :expressionless

 

[BSAR]

Anything yet Pipp?
We haven't given her any and tomorrow we are going to talk to our mom about taking her to the vet in the afternoon.

Hopefully she will say yes, I emailed my 4h leader twice about Minnie but she still hasn't replied. So if she hasn't by 8:00 pm then I will call her.

 

[tonyshuman]

First, remember that the penicillin-G procaine solution that you have is meant for large livestock. This treatment is by no means the best option (which would be taking her to a vet and having the vet supervise the treatment), but it may possibly work. I would personally never give antibiotics to a rabbit without veterinary supervision. However, we are going to do the best we can to help you.

The bottle should say how many "units" it has per mL. The concentration of an antibiotic is frequently described by the number of "units" as opposed to grams or milligrams. In any case, you will want to follow the dosing instructions given on this page:
http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~jwmoore/bicillin/bicillin.htm
Thus, assuming she is more than 2.5 kg (5.5lb), you will want to give her 150,000 units of the drug diluted with an equal volume of sterile saline subcutaneously (not intramuscularly). The link in the library on giving sub-q fluids should help you see how to do this, since having a vet or vet tech instruct you is out of the question.

An 18-gage needle should be fine although a bit large. You can ask nicely and explain the situation at a pharmacy if you go to buy sterile saline for dilution of the penicillin G. Also, please do not re-use the needle. This can introduce bacteria into her system, which she definitely does not need. At the very least, sterilize it with rubbing ethyl alcohol (not isopropyl or methyl) between uses.

Please also note Randy's comments in this post:
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=34065&forum_id=16

To me, this treatment is like assuming that you might have a broken leg because you fell down the stairs, and instead of going to the doctor waiting several days and deciding to treat it by wrapping it in plaster-coated strips of cloth. The treatment may make sense medically, but you do not have the training to determine if anything is wrong, what might be wrong, and what the best treatment is if there is something wrong.

I strongly encourage you to take her to the vet. You can call and ask to bring her in so they can look at her sometime during the day when they have a spare moment--that way it wouldn't cost as much as an emergency appointment. If that is completely out of the question, please use the suggestions we have listed.

 

[BSAR]

Well we would make an appointment for later in the day. After me and my sister get out of school. Is that an emergency appt.?

 

[BlueCamasRabbitry]

tonyshuman wrote:

First, remember that the penicillin-G procaine solution that you have is meant for large livestock. This treatment is by no means the best option (which would be taking her to a vet and having the vet supervise the treatment), but it may possibly work. I would personally never give antibiotics to a rabbit without veterinary supervision. However, we are going to do the best we can to help you.

The bottle should say how many "units" it has per mL. The concentration of an antibiotic is frequently described by the number of "units" as opposed to grams or milligrams. In any case, you will want to follow the dosing instructions given on this page:
http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~jwmoore/bicillin/bicillin.htm
Thus, assuming she is more than 2.5 kg (5.5lb), you will want to give her 150,000 units of the drug diluted with an equal volume of sterile saline subcutaneously (not intramuscularly). The link in the library on giving sub-q fluids should help you see how to do this, since having a vet or vet tech instruct you is out of the question.

An 18-gage needle should be fine although a bit large. You can ask nicely and explain the situation at a pharmacy if you go to buy sterile saline for dilution of the penicillin G. Also, please do not re-use the needle. This can introduce bacteria into her system, which she definitely does not need. At the very least, sterilize it with rubbing ethyl alcohol (not isopropyl or methyl) between uses.

Please also note Randy's comments in this post:
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=34065&forum_id=16

To me, this treatment is like assuming that you might have a broken leg because you fell down the stairs, and instead of going to the doctor waiting several days and deciding to treat it by wrapping it in plaster-coated strips of cloth. The treatment may make sense medically, but you do not have the training to determine if anything is wrong, what might be wrong, and what the best treatment is if there is something wrong.

I strongly encourage you to take her to the vet. You can call and ask to bring her in so they can look at her sometime during the day when they have a spare moment--that way it wouldn't cost as much as an emergency appointment. If that is completely out of the question, please use the suggestions we have listed.

So where can I get Saline solution stuff? The bottle of Penn says it has 300,000 units per ML. So, if my math is correct, wouldn't that be .5 ml to equal 150,000 units? And then of course mix it with .5 ml of Saline solution?

Emily

 

[Pipp]

A 12-gage is way too large. Pam uses a 20 gauge, I think Randy uses 21 or 23?

Pam also says that the recommended dosage is 1 ml per 100 pounds of body weight. Most people use .2 to .4 cc's for an average 4 lb. rabbit.

Do you have anybody who can show you how to do the injection? A nurse? We have a video, hopefully someone can pull it up, but you really should have someone show you.

To get a smaller needle means a vet visit regardless.

The saline isn't urgent. You may have the needle clog, but just try again.

How is the rabbit now?

If you have photos of the 'partial' kit, can you send them to Pam? The main concern is whether a kit or parts of a kit have been retained.

sas

 

[BlueCamasRabbitry]

Pipp wrote:

A 12-gage is way too large. Pam uses a 20 gauge, I think Randy uses 21 or 23? Curious, how is a 12-gauge needle bigger than a 20, 21 or 23? Plus, I said that the needle has an 18 on it...not a 12. I don't know why someone said it was a 12-gauge?

We do have another needle, it's alot skinnier, longer than the one we got from the feed store. Unfortunately the package it was in is long gone, so I don't know how big it is.

Pam also says that the recommended dosage is 1 ml per 100 pounds of body weight. Most people use .2 to .4 cc's for an average 4 lb. rabbit. How do I convert ml to cc's?

Do you have anybody who can show you how to do the injection? A nurse? We have a video, hopefully someone can pull it up, but you really should have someone show you. My mom's boyfriend has given injections to animals before.

To get a smaller needle means a vet visit regardless. Like stated above, I do have a smaller needle, but I'm not sure what size.

The saline isn't urgent. You may have the needle clog, but just try again. So you don't really need the saline?

How is the rabbit now? She was eating when we left; we gave her carrots, banana, fresh grass. Kinda just sitting one spot and hopping just a little. I think she might have back dysplasia and I told my mom that we need to take her to the vet to get painkillers. this time she didn't say no, so hopefully we will be able to take her tomorrow. I mean, me and my sister are the ones paying for this, not her. If we want to take her, she shouldn't say no.

If you have photos of the 'partial' kit, can you send them to Pam? The main concern is whether a kit or parts of a kit have been retained. I just have a picture of the first kit, is all. The one that had no head...

sas

My answers are in bold, Sas

Emily

 

[Pipp]

Yeah, if she's not hopping much, definitely just head to the vet and ignore the rest of the post. She may have internal damage. At best, she could be in pain from the stuck kit removal. (You may have to ask for painkillers).

But the vet will check her over. Just ask for instructions re: giving a shot for future reference. (Or watch closely and ask a lot of questions).

Good luck with her. And good on ya for caring and doing the right thing. I hope she's okay. ray:

Please let us know how it goes!


sas :hug2:

PS: Still send Pam the pic of the kit, and also print it or put it on your phone or whatever and take it with you to the Vet's.

 

[devotedmommy]

Hello, I hope your Minnie is feeling better. I have not really been raised in a 4H community I know of the organization but not really specifics. I thought they teach and prepare you for these situations and teach how to care for sick animals? Do they just teach how to breed? How come you guys need your mom's permission if you have the money for a vet? I am not trying to be rude I am sure you are worried about your Minnie just like everyone else. I just don't understand.

 

[Pipp]

devotedmommy wrote:

Hello, I hope your Minnie is feeling better. I have not really been raised in a 4H community I know of the organization but not really specifics. I thought they teach and prepare you for these situations and teach how to care for sick animals? Do they just teach how to breed? How come you guys need your mom's permission if you have the money for a vet? I am not trying to be rude I am sure you are worried about your Minnie just like everyone else. I just don't understand.

It's not easy preparing for and treating all ailments. 4H leaders are just community volunteers. They may be knowledgeable, or not so knowledgeable. Or they may just be operating under older beliefs passed down from their own mentors. The area of rabbit health is certainly not black and white. Opinions differ. People may have different ways of doing things, and both may have elements that are 'right' or 'wrong', but unless one follows the latest veterinary and scientific medical journals religiously, it's probably just an opinion. There are LOTS of vets who don't.

And I would think that there is a level of respect expected between a parent and a child. I don't think if I was that age I'd go against my parents wishes just because it was my money. I would hope to be able to work it out with them in a reasonable manner, however.

I do believe Emily has this under control. It's best that we refrain from further comments (aside from solid medical information that may be relevant) and let the girls work it out and report back to those of us concerned.

:thanks:


sas :clover: