Princess's and Prince's of the Fancy....

[Bo B Bunny]

Starlight Rabbitry wrote:

BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote:

Please pray for her.
Gosh, why isn't anyone who is helpful on???
Emily

I just want to point something out. You both ask for people's help here and there are lots of EXPERIENCED breeders and owners here that are trying to help you and all you want to do is listen to your leader? There is something wrong here.

I think this is a huge part of the problem here. They ask, we all respond, worry, try to think of things to do to help them and then it's like we're ignored.

Also, I have to agree on the breeding. We have sheep and a goat and bunnies and my son is in his 10th year of 4H... I would LOVE to have lambs and to have kept his ewes to breed from 2 years ago.... but we don't have the facilities for it, we don't know enough about this stuff, and I can't afford a C-section for a ewe. He has to buy his lambs.

 

[Flashy]

I truly hope Minnie is ok.

 

[pamnock]

BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote:

No. She is extremely knowledgeable in this kind of stuff. It's not like she's making this up. We already told you guys that she's saved many does by giving them the stuff we're giving Minnie. She knows what she's doing and has MUCH more knowledge that many doctors I've EVER spoken too.

Why can't anyone understand that?


Emily

I can understand that you have an adult who is willing to take the time to help you out to the best of her knowledge.

As far as the information we have been provided with, the doe appears to be in no imminent danger and no animal welfare statues are being violated.


We are here to help and support, not to alienate. Once again, we have a number ofposters reacting emotionally and providing no realassistance in this situation except for posting extensively and making it more difficult to to pick out the critical information that we need to address this situation.

I would have liked to have seen the doe go to the vet to be certain that she hasn't retained any pieces of kits.However, this isn't always evident on a sonogram, so doesn't guarantee anything but a big bill.

If she is showing any signs of infection, I would most certainly like to see her go to the vet, but I haven't seen anything in the poststhat I read that indicated she is suffering from an infection. Thehome remedies being offered by the 4-H advisor arenot hurting anything and certainly do not justify the disrespectful attitude being generated towards her. This is a shameful example to our younger members.

At this point, she hasn't beentaken to the vet and appears to be fine. Girls, please keep us updated on her condition so that we can offerfurther adviceif needed.




Pam

 

[Bo B Bunny]

pamnock wrote:

I can understand that you have an adult who is willing to take the time to help you out to the best of her knowledge.

As far as the information we have been provided with, the doe appears to be in no imminent danger and no animal welfare statues are being violated.


We are here to help and support, not to alienate. Once again, we have a number of non-breeders reacting emotionally and providing no realassistance in this situation except for posting extensively and making it more difficult to to pick out the critical information that we need to address this situation.

So it's normal to have a kit stuck in the birth canal for 3 or more hours? and having them 2 days apart?

I think the real concern that someof us "non-breeders" have is that she could very well have had an infection.

 

[Maureen Las]

BSAR wrote:

The vinegar water helps to strengthen the uterine walls and also helps with vinegar, I don't know why we still have to give it to her then.

Minnie's stomach isn't as swollen any more and she is acting so much more like herself. We aren't going to breed her in the future.

The reason my 4h leader has been saying don't take her to the vets unless we really think it is necesary is because she doesn't want us spending hundreds of dollars on Minnie, because she won't be able to be bred again.

We can always go out and buy a new brood doe.
And yes we have wanted to take Minnie to the vet but my mom keeps saying no, she is listening to my 4h leader not anyone on here.

Thisis good leadership in 4H?????
Maureen

 

[NorthernAutumn]

Redundant...

Was just asking whether penicillin is still a go, or if the "wait and see approach" is being adopted instead (keeping in mind lack of visual indicators for infection...)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is what I see as the challenge at this point in time:

- Pipp, Pam, Tonyshuman, angieluv, polly, Starlight Rabbitry, and others (breeder and non-breeder alike) all indicated on pages 4-5 of this thread that it would be best to have a dose of penicillin properly administered to Minnie.

- It was felt that while not overly harmful, vinegar, sugar water and Vitamin C are not aggressive enough to effectively combat any potential infection.

- If no one was able to give the penicillin effectively, the recommendation from these experienced people was to take Minnie to the vet so that the shot could be given safely. (Advice as of Sunday)

-This is a week later. Minnie has not recieved a shot of penicillin yet. Thus, the advice given was not taken. OK... so what next?


- The girls have told us that there appears to be swelling of the abdomen and genitalia.
- Minnie is apparently eating well, and hopping more readily than on Tuesday, when she appeared to be suffering back dysplasia.
- No body temperature readings have been done, and no nasty smell is evident.

The question is, can you visually assess whether or not an infection has occured?

- information from the last few pages from the same members suggests that no, you cannot necessarily visually see if infection has occured.
- posts 112, 113, 114 all suggest possible infection indicators, most of which cannot be seen by eyes.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We are now debating whether to err on the side of caution by now getting proper antibiotics (ie. penicillin) into Minnie. However, if cost is prohibitive from seeking a vet's help, should the penicillin injection be done now? The girls have the penicillin. Do they administer the shot now?

OR

Is it advisable to wait and "see", (recognizing that infection is not always shown on the body or in behaviour)? How will the girls know for sure if she is infected? Are we suggesting that Minnie's body should combat potential infection on its own? If so, then let's state that.

(I think we all agree that Vitamin C and sugar/vinegar water is not the best available remedy. NO harm will stem from it, though.)


If the vet is out of the question due to financial limitations...
What is the next step? Wait and see, or penicillin (given by the girls)?



***Breeder vs. non-breeder isn't really the point, IMO
Most of members assumed that the penicillin would have been given on Sunday. As it was not, members promoted the vet, in accordance with the opinions given by the aforementioned knowledgeable people.
Both breeders and non-breeders are encouraging that everything is being done that can be/should be done (financially and health-care wise).

 

[whaleyk98]

Bo B Bunny wrote:

pamnock wrote:

I can understand that you have an adult who is willing to take the time to help you out to the best of her knowledge.

As far as the information we have been provided with, the doe appears to be in no imminent danger and no animal welfare statues are being violated.


We are here to help and support, not to alienate. Once again, we have a number of non-breeders reacting emotionally and providing no realassistance in this situation except for posting extensively and making it more difficult to to pick out the critical information that we need to address this situation.

So it's normal to have a kit stuck in the birth canal for 3 or more hours? and having them 2 days apart?

I think the real concern that someof us "non-breeders" have is that she could very well have had an infection.

Ok, Im a little confused. I understand that this forum is to help and give information. This :PAM wrote:"We are here to help and support, not to alienate. Once again, we have a number of non-breeders reacting emotionally and providing no realassistance in this situation except for posting extensively and making it more difficult to to pick out the critical information that we need to address this situation."
to me sounds like we are supposed to sit down and shut up and keep our worries and opinions to our selves.Help was asked for and was gladly given...or tried to be given anyway. A lot of people were taken back by the "disposable" comment and for the lack of gratitude with the help from all these experienced peoplefor thissituation.A lot of great advice was given..which was ignored, and a lot of people were saying the same thing to these girls over and over which was this rabbit probably needed to see a vet. All of this which apparently fell on deaf ears. I am a breeder,so the comment of non breeders doesnt apply, but we are all in agreement, breeders and non, that this rabbit should have seen a vet for her own safety. We were all concerned for Minnie and what her outcome would be. Im very happy to hear that she is doing well, but I cant believe that because people are getting offended or upset about this situation that we are being told not to act emotionally to this?? What? How can you NOT? Yes we ARE here to help and support but if you are NOT willing to take the help that you ask for...then dont ask. If you are going to get upset because someone turns out to actually care what happens to the rabbit then maybe you shouldnt ask. I dont know....maybe Im just a bit emotional today. I probably took something the wrong way.....Forgive me if I have said too much.And again, Im glad to hear that Minnie is doing well. JMO

 

[BSAR]

whaleyk98 wrote:

BSAR said:

"The reason my 4h leader has been saying don't take her to the vets unless we really think it is necesary is because she doesn't want us spending hundreds of dollars on Minnie, because she won't be able to be bred again.

We can always go out and buy a new brood doe."

I was also very taken back by this statement . :shock:"We can always go out and buy a new brood doe":?Well thats not very fair to Minnie right now is it? Thats like saying that its ok to let her suffer and die because you can just go buy another one! She cant breed again so oh well. Thats what people running puppy mills or backyard breeders say..:shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock::shock:

I don't like that idea either! I wanted to take her to the vet but she is way better now. I am don't even think she has the infection. Her stomach is almost back to normal.

That is what big time breeders do because obviously they don't have money to take them to the vet one after another. That is what my 4h leader is saying, she says if we keep the bad ones it will make us look bad. I don't care because at least I love the animals. And we are only breeding Mini Rexes now so who cares.


Sorry if it doesn't make much sense but I don't feel like explaining it all the way.

 

[BlueCamasRabbitry]

NorthernAutumn wrote:

Emily, I am very sorry that you find this discussion so upsetting. However, on the Internet, most people consider TYPING IN ALL CAPITALS and using BOLD to be rudely yelling at someone. I don't think that is what you are trying to do, I hope? no no no no. Definitley not. When i reply like this, I type in bold so you can see what i say to what you said

I understand that you are upset. RO members are too. We all want the best for Minnie. We are all trying to give you our best ideas to make sure she gets better.

However, she is your rabbit. Not mine. It is not my responsibility to make the choices, but I want to be sure that you guys have all the information you need in order to make your choices well.

Whatever you decide is what will happen. Good luck to you both.


edited for clarity

 

[pamnock]

Bo B Bunny wrote:

So it's normal to have a kit stuck in the birth canal for 3 or more hours? and having them 2 days apart?

I think the real concern that someof us "non-breeders" have is that she could very well have had an infection.

I have dealt with a number of cases of "stuck" kits. Dystocia is not uncommon. In most cases, the remains pass without incident. Ideally, I would have liked to have seen the doe taken to the vet because the 24 hourtime frame within the onset of birthis the optimal time to intervene.

The concern that the doe had an infection was speculation.

The 4-H leader is helping the girls and feels that medical intervention is not necessary at this time.



Pam

 

[BlueCamasRabbitry]

pamnock wrote:

BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote:

No. She is extremely knowledgeable in this kind of stuff. It's not like she's making this up. We already told you guys that she's saved many does by giving them the stuff we're giving Minnie. She knows what she's doing and has MUCH more knowledge that many doctors I've EVER spoken too.

Why can't anyone understand that?


Emily

I can understand that you have an adult who is willing to take the time to help you out to the best of her knowledge.

As far as the information we have been provided with, the doe appears to be in no imminent danger and no animal welfare statues are being violated.


We are here to help and support, not to alienate. Once again, we have a number of non-breeders reacting emotionally and providing no realassistance in this situation except for posting extensively and making it more difficult to to pick out the critical information that we need to address this situation.

I would have liked to have seen the doe go to the vet to be certain that she hasn't retained any pieces of kits.However, this isn't always evident on a sonogram, so doesn't guarantee anything but a big bill.

If she is showing any signs of infection, I would most certainly like to see her go to the vet, but I haven't seen anything in the poststhat I read that indicated she is suffering from an infection. Thehome remedies being offered by the 4-H advisor arenot hurting anything and certainly do not justify the disrespectful attitude being generated towards her. This is a shameful example to our younger members.

At this point, she hasn't beentaken to the vet and appears to be fine. Girls, please keep us updated on her condition so that we can offerfurther adviceif needed.




Pam

Thank you, Pam.

We will keep you updated. In fact, I'm going to take a video of her today so you guys can see how she is.

I Felt her belly yesterday and it's no longer distended and is back to normal. We let her out of her cage while we were cleaning and she was having a lot of fun. Getting into things and she even gave Sippi a kiss right before she tried climbing back into her cage cuz she was hungry (which Mandi then put her in her cage)

Emily

 

[BlueCamasRabbitry]

bunnybunbunb wrote:

"The reason my 4h leader has been saying don't take her to the vets unless we really think it is necesary is because she doesn't want us spending hundreds of dollars on Minnie, because she won't be able to be bred again."

Omg, so because Minnie can't breed again she isn't worth it? You can just buy another doe to refuse medical care to?That's what our 4-H leader believes, not us. We completely disagree with this. We would NEVER do that to Minnie. You have to understand that our 4-H leader treats her rabbits like livestock, she eats them, too. WE do not think of our rabbits as livestock; we think of them as pets.

As for the other time you where told to take a rabbit to the vet, that I remember, was on SC. Your rabbit got an eye infection and you IGNORED it. All you did was clean it. Yet another case of untreated infection, I think I see a pattern. Ugh, where are you getting that I ever had a rabbit w/ eye infection? We've never had a rabbit with an eye infection so please do not assume. And how do you know about SC? Were you ever on it? Why do you have to be so rude? You're acting like I treat my animals like s***. I do NOT appreciate the comment "Yet another case of untreated infection. I think I see a pattern." Please do explain that to me.

If you do not have the money to take a rabbit to the vet you odviously do not have the money to breed properly. We have the money. Obviously you didn't read the post that said we have $800. Lets say you have a litter born and something happens and part of the babies are say attacked once weaned? No vet care. What if you have a doe that had trouble birthing and ripped a few legs off? Suffering babies.Or like something I went through where a doe ATE all her babies but one and left it with no legs, tail or ears and part of it's skin gone? What then since you do not have the money to take them to get them put down? You really shouldn't assume things that you dont know. I never said I had no money. I'm asking you nicely, do not come to my posts again, as all you seem to do is be extremely rude.

If you have money but your mom will not let you use it to treat a rabbit you should not be breeding till you can.

 

[BlueCamasRabbitry]

Starlight Rabbitry wrote:

BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote:

Please pray for her.
Gosh, why isn't anyone who is helpful on???
Emily

I just want to point something out. You both ask for people's help here and there are lots of EXPERIENCED breeders and owners here that are trying to help you and all you want to do is listen to your leader? There is something wrong here.

In my own opinion, I think that you girls are best suited to doing rescue work or just being pet owners. You really shouldn't be breeding anymore. I understand that everyone learns and that you have to start somewhere. When I first started I had a mentor whom I trusted but I also had many other people who I listened to also. I did a TON of online research as well as read every book out there. I have contacted the American Rabbit Breeders Assoc. too many times.

I really hope that you stop breeding rabbits till you become a little more responsible. Responsible breeders take their rabbits to the vet when it risks the life of the rabbit. Obviously some things can be mended with home treatment but there are some things that a vet should be seen for.

Rabbit breeding is by no means meant to be profit making. I can't begin to tell you the amount of money I have invested and have lost. Time off of work, vet bills, sleepless nights. Currently, I am helping hand raise a litter that I think mom just isn't producing enough milk. Thank heaven that I have the experience to deal with that.

My point in this post is to ask you not to come on here and tell us that our advice is not as good as your 4-H leader's when you asked for the advice in the first place.

Sharon


Edited for spelling.....I'm tired

Kay first off, I asked for advice here and when NO ONE was responding I called my leader. Ok?

I don't understand why you have to be so rude. By saying we shouldn't be breeding; that's not up to you. We ARE responsible. WE ARE NOT backyard breeders.

Jesus. I'm so done with this.

Emily

 

[bunnybunbunb]

BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote:

bunnybunbunb wrote:

"The reason my 4h leader has been saying don't take her to the vets unless we really think it is necesary is because she doesn't want us spending hundreds of dollars on Minnie, because she won't be able to be bred again."

Omg, so because Minnie can't breed again she isn't worth it? You can just buy another doe to refuse medical care to?That's what our 4-H leader believes, not us. We completely disagree with this. We would NEVER do that to Minnie. You have to understand that our 4-H leader treats her rabbits like livestock, she eats them, too. WE do not think of our rabbits as livestock; we think of them as pets.

As for the other time you where told to take a rabbit to the vet, that I remember, was on SC. Your rabbit got an eye infection and you IGNORED it. All you did was clean it. Yet another case of untreated infection, I think I see a pattern. Ugh, where are you getting that I ever had a rabbit w/ eye infection? We've never had a rabbit with an eye infection so please do not assume. And how do you know about SC? Were you ever on it? Why do you have to be so rude? You're acting like I treat my animals like s***. I do NOT appreciate the comment "Yet another case of untreated infection. I think I see a pattern." Please do explain that to me.

If you do not have the money to take a rabbit to the vet you odviously do not have the money to breed properly. We have the money. Obviously you didn't read the post that said we have $800. Lets say you have a litter born and something happens and part of the babies are say attacked once weaned? No vet care. What if you have a doe that had trouble birthing and ripped a few legs off? Suffering babies.Or like something I went through where a doe ATE all her babies but one and left it with no legs, tail or ears and part of it's skin gone? What then since you do not have the money to take them to get them put down? You really shouldn't assume things that you dont know. I never said I had no money. I'm asking you nicely, do not come to my posts again, as all you seem to do is be extremely rude.

If you have money but your mom will not let you use it to treat a rabbit you should not be breeding till you can.

If you like I can get a few of the people that where on sc at the same time to come on so no one thinks I am lying. Some are already members here and where in on the post telling you to get the rabbit to the vet when you refused to get the eye checked out. Yes, I was on sc.

Ok, you have money, however if your mom will not let you use it on a rabbit that needs to see a vet it is not you do not even have it. What I said is until you are allowed to use your money for vet care when needed you should not be breeding.

I was not rude until I saw you clearly where ignoring people. Yes, you got the penicillin but have you gave her any? She may not have an infection now but all this has probably weakened her immune system and she may get sick later due to it.

I will post where I feel I need, no matter who the post is by. I am not going to sugar coat things, you asked for help and we tried to help. Now people are getting mad and it is not just me, I have the messages from other people who feel the same as I do.

Samantha

 

[Pipp]

Actually Samantha, you've been asked not to post in this thread by it's creator, we ask that you respect that.

And the Infirmary advice was to NOT give the rabbit penicillin. The length of the thread caused a lot of us to just respond to questions in posts and not view the whole story. A vet may have administered (or instructed on) such treatment, but its something not recommended for the inexperienced.

As for the topic in general, it's done.

A few final comments... a new thread should have been started in the Rabbitry or Infirmary in the first place under a title indicating that assistance was needed. That's first and foremost. The doe was particularly endangered during the first 24 hours, she would have been better served by vet treatment at that time for her comfort and safety.

Because the discussion wasn't readily identified as a health issue, and because of the length of the thread, it got off-track re: answering specific posts (ie: the use of penicillin, etc) rather than the treatment of the rabbit.

There are deep philosophical differences between the farming and pet communities, neither side should be vilified or ridiculed for their beliefs.

Opinions and experiences are welcome, but we ask that people don't lengthen, confuse or inflame any issues with redundant, misinformed or aggressive posts.

Its also not our business how much money someone has or what they're choosing to spend it on, or what health care they believe in.

All we can do is offer our own experiences and research.


:thanks: