This Applies to Everyone

[FlickeringHope]

I wasn't totally sure where to put this...but as this applies to rabbit nutrition in general, I figured this would be the best place.

But this isn't a question.

A while ago, I heard, in this post as a matter of fact, that some of you feed "American Pet Diner" to your rabbits, otherwise known by the "nickname" of APD. Well I google'd their site, and researched the ingredients. I was shocked with what I found:

Why are Parabens bad?

Visit this site for information: http://www.edennaturalproductsresource.com/?p=21

as well as this one: http://www.terressentials.com/endocrine.html

Why is Propanediol bad? See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,2-Propanediol

and if Wikipedia isn't your thing, try here: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/propanediol

Used as antifreeze??? And to think, rabbits are EATING that.

But if that site STILL isn't good enough.... http://chemicalland21.com/industrialchem/solalc/2-METHYL-1,3%20PROPANEDIOL.htm

So let's get this straight...so far, rabbits who are eating "American Pet Diner - Timmy" are consuming chemicals(parabens) that are known to cause breast cancer and testicular cancer in humans, as well chemicals that are in cosmetic products, and consuming another chemical used in cosmetic products(propanediol).

But what about cobalt carbonate?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt_carbonate

Ooo, yum! Pottery glaze!

For further proof: http://store.ceramicstoreinc.com/cocacooxcoca.html

Always been potentially harmful....

I don't think I have to update any further on why American Pet Diner's products are probably killing rabbits, instead of "nourishing" them.

I already wrote them a letter, and wrote how I was disgusted they used parabens. Looks like I'll be writing another.

Thanks for reading.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, forgot to mention..it's not just rabbits, it's guinea pigs and chinchillas, too, that are eating that stuff, if they're fed the "Timmy" version of American Pet Diner. For some reason parabens only appear in the "Timmy" version of American Pet Diner. Not the "Alffy". But after I'm over feeling sick, I'm going to breakdown the ingredients in their "Alffy" formulas, too.

 

[Amy27]

I just looked at my bag of Oxbow Organic Rabbit and Nature's Promise rabbit food and both contain the Cobalt Carbonate. I wonder if it is in all rabbit food. Do you have a brand that didn't contain it?

Thanks for doing research on this. It is good to know. Both of the foods I mentioned above didn't have the other things you mentioned.

 

[degrassi]

I'd also be interested if you can find a pellet that doesn't contain any bad chemical ingredients.

I feed Martin pellets and they don't contain cobalt carbonate but it does contain cobalt sulphate http://www.martinmills.com/littleRabbitLessActive.htm

 

[BlueCamasRabbitry]

I looked at the feed tag off my bag of Dels Rabbit Feed 16% and it doesn't have any of the ingredients you listed, including the Colbalt Carbonate. But it does contain Colbalt Sulfate.

Is colbalt sulfate bad?

I'm glad I don't feed APD!

Emily

 

[BSAR]

Wow that is just repulsive to think that those things are allowed to be in animal food, or even possibly human food for that matter!

That is just horrible, I will never feed that to any of my pets! I am thinking of even writing them a letter myself!

 

[FlickeringHope]

That's not a problem, I'm doing research into dog and cat pet foods too, and though I found bad ingredients in the majority of brands, it wasn't anything like this. No cat or dog products use parabens or other toxic chemicals...just ingredients that are "meat leftovers" like byproducts.

I looked it up, Oxbow's Bunny Basics T, and Bunny Basics 15/23 doesn't contain Cobalt Carbonate. No, wait...scratch that... they do. What the hell, Oxbow?

And I was going to suggest Kaytee "timothy Complete Rabbit", but it contains Cobalt Carbonate AND ethoxyquin. Ethoxyquin is otherwise known as BHA, and is a common preservative in dog and cat dry food, and has been linked to cause cancer.

http://www.naturalpetfoodcompany.com/rabprod.htm
This product contains sunflower seeds, and dried carrots, of which the house rabbit society explains rabbit pellets should be pellets only, but it's up to you. It doesn't contain cobalt carbonate, and I'm sure the seeds could be picked out. Plus, their product's fiber content isn't very high.

I just emailed "Supreme pet foods" for a list of ingredients to their rabbit food. They give a summary to what their food contains, but no actual ingredients. So when they email me back, I'll let you know if they're a good brand.

Burgess Excel contains no parabens, preservatives, food coloring, ethoxyquin, corn, cobalt carbonate, or propylene glycol. ...But they're in the UK.

That's all I could find for right now. For those that mentioned cobalt sulfate, I'll look into that in just a few.

EDIT: Okay, cobalt sulfate....

"It is used the preparation of pigments, as well as in the manufacture of other cobalt salts. Cobalt pigment is used in porcelains and glass. Cobalt(II) sulfate is used in storage batteries and electroplating baths, sympathetic inks, and as an additive to soils and animal feeds.[3][/sup] In the past, cobalt(II) sulfate was used to improve the stability of foam in beer and to treat some forms of anemia not responsive to other treatments.[4]"

[/sup]and....

"Cobalt(II) sulfate has been shown to be toxic and slightly carcinogenic upon inhalation in mice.[5][/sup] It has also been shown to be a mutagen in salmonella.[6][/sup] It was once added to a beer by the Quebec brewing company Dow in order to improve the head, resulting in 16 deaths and numerous cases of cobalt sulfate poisoning."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt(II)_sulfate
This is probably where wikipedia got its information from: http://chemicalland21.com/industrialchem/inorganic/COBALT SULFATE.htm

So...yes.. I'd say it was also a bad ingredient, :/

 

[BlueCamasRabbitry]

FlickeringHope wrote:

EDIT: Okay, cobalt sulfate....

"It is used the preparation of pigments, as well as in the manufacture of other cobalt salts. Cobalt pigment is used in porcelains and glass. Cobalt(II) sulfate is used in storage batteries and electroplating baths, sympathetic inks, and as an additive to soils and animal feeds.[3][/suP] In the past, cobalt(II) sulfate was used to improve the stability of foam in beer and to treat some forms of anemia not responsive to other treatments.[4]"

[/suP]and....

"Cobalt(II) sulfate has been shown to be toxic and slightly carcinogenic upon inhalation in mice.[5][/suP] It has also been shown to be a mutagen in salmonella.[6][/suP] It was once added to a beer by the Quebec brewing company Dow in order to improve the head, resulting in 16 deaths and numerous cases of cobalt sulfate poisoning."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt%28II%29_sulfate
This is probably where wikipedia got its information from: http://chemicalland21.com/industrialchem/inorganic/COBALT%20SULFATE.htm

So...yes.. I'd say it was also a bad ingredient, :/

:shock::shock:

Ohmygosh....That's awful. Ugh.

I too am curious as to see if there is any rabbit food without bad ingredients?

Could these ingredients cause problems in our bunnies though? Surely a vet might have some input on this if one can get ahold of a vet to ask them. :expressionless

Emily

 

[FlickeringHope]

Sure, the cobalt sulfate and cobalt carbonate are usually listed as the very last ingredients. And usually, in pet foods, ingredients are listed in order of the quantity the food contains. Most of these companies that use cobalt ingredients, their pellets would probably only include trace amounts of it, that may, or may not have little to no effect on your rabbit.

But honestly? In my opinion? I'm not comfortable with it. It's kind of like the constant debate on beet pulp. I've looked; and there doesn't seem to be any evidence either way that beet pulp as an ingredient is either good, or bad, for our pets to consume. It's one of those, "If it makes you uncomfortable, avoid products that list it." That's my standpoint on cobalt carbonate and cobalt sulfate. Knowing what these ingredients are, I'd much rather prefer feed my guinea and rabbit pellets that don't use it.

So far, the only company that doesn't use any of those chemicals, or bad ingredients, is Burgess. But they're in the UK. Here's the site URL:

http://www.burgesspetcare.co.uk/products/rabbit/burgess-excel-rabbit-adult-oregano.html

I'm currently waiting for a response from "Supreme Pet Food", I'm waiting for them to email be back a list of ingredients that comprise their pet food.

 

[FlickeringHope]

Found some other brands that sound okay:

Marshall's Peter Rabbit:
http://www.rabbitmart.com/shop/index.php?page=shop-flypage-29668

Here's the actual manfacturer website: http://www.marshallpet.com/peters/peters_nutrition.html

FM Brown's "Natural Rabbit Food:
http://www.rabbitmart.com/shop/index.php?page=shop-flypage-21804

Here's the actual website: http://www.fmbrown.com/bird_TraditionalSmAnimalFood.htm

Before anyone asks.... I looked up "cobalt proteinate" - and the results are good. Turns out, the reason most pet food companies use cobalt carbonate, or cobate sulfate, is to give the animals system the mineral "cobalt", completely disregarding the fact that those two versions, seem to be unhealthy.

Here's a website that breaks down common minerals in pet foods and what their use is: http://www.jhbiotech.com/animal_products/proteinates.htm

I couldn't find any other sources on it that said anything beyond that.

Oh, yeah, and the reason I posted the "rabbit mart" links to those two products, was so you could review the ingredients. Because the actual websites didn't list the ingredients.

So, those are the three foods I've found so far, where the ingredients don't worry me.

FM Brown's Natural Rabbit Food, Marshall's Peter Rabbit Food, and Burgess.

The links to those three, in case anyone missed them:

http://www.fmbrown.com/bird_TraditionalSmAnimalFood.htm
http://www.marshallpet.com/peters/peters_nutrition.html
http://www.burgesspetcare.co.uk/products/rabbit/burgess-excel-rabbit-adult-oregano.html

 

[Saudade]

Sorry I would like to make a point here that Cobalt Carbonate is vital in Vitamin B12 production in the intestines. It has it's uses and in the quantities used (None of your links provide a ratio or amount) will be for those purposes.

Try contacting the manufacturers of the products before you jump to conclusions.

Also on the topics of cancer causing preservatives, everything you ingest, from the most organic carrot to diet cola, can and will cause cancer. I'd like to know how the research was done to find that these specific preservatives are cancer causing.

*edit* After conferring with pharmacist, these chemicals are fine in small doses, but just like any other chemical on the earth is dangerous in large quantities.

 

[Pipp]

Thanks Dave, this really is a unwarranted 'scare' and while not totally 'urban legends', data like this can be applied to almost anything.

People have said they will stop buying some good brands of rabbit pellets in favor of lesser brands based on misconstrued data.

Thanks for looking out for the rabbits, Pel, but this is very complicated can of worms that really doesn't apply -- or even if it does apply, the alternatives are just as likely to have other issues that somebody else can zero in on.

Even if you stop feeding pellets altogether and go for just fresh veggies and hay, there will be somebody who can point out various growing practices or a myriad of other things to make that sound scary too.



sas :lookaround

 

[Pipp]

FlickeringHope wrote:

I already wrote them a letter, and wrote how I was disgusted they used parabens. Looks like I'll be writing another.

This is a great thing to do. Pet food companies need to know that people are paying attention and that they need to find less chemically invasive ways of manufacturing the food.

I will reiterate the caution that looking at protein, fiber counts and the like are far more important to rabbit health. FAR more rabbits die from bad nutrition and GI issues than from additive-caused cancers. APD and Oxbow are good brands.


sas

 

[FlickeringHope]

APD isn't a good brand - they use parabens in their product. While "cobalt carbonate" may not be harmful, parabens definitely are, no matter which way you look at it. Besides, Dave, as I mentioned in my most recent post, cobalt proteinate can be be used to prevent against cobalt deficiencies, cobalt carbonate or cobalt sulfate are completely unnecessary to use.

 

[jamesedwardwaller]

FlickeringHope wrote:

I wasn't totally sure where to put this...but as this applies to rabbit nutrition in general, I figured this would be the best place.

But this isn't a question.

A while ago, I heard, in this post as a matter of fact, that some of you feed "American Pet Diner" to your rabbits, otherwise known by the "nickname" of APD. Well I google'd their site, and researched the ingredients. I was shocked with what I found:

Why are Parabens bad?

Visit this site for information: http://www.edennaturalproductsresource.com/?p=21

as well as this one: http://www.terressentials.com/endocrine.html

Why is Propanediol bad? See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,2-Propanediol

and if Wikipedia isn't your thing, try here: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/propanediol

Used as antifreeze??? And to think, rabbits are EATING that.

But if that site STILL isn't good enough.... http://chemicalland21.com/industrialchem/solalc/2-METHYL-1,3%20PROPANEDIOL.htm

So let's get this straight...so far, rabbits who are eating "American Pet Diner - Timmy" are consuming chemicals(parabens) that are known to cause breast cancer and testicular cancer in humans, as well chemicals that are in cosmetic products, and consuming another chemical used in cosmetic products(propanediol).

But what about cobalt carbonate?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt_carbonate

Ooo, yum! Pottery glaze!

For further proof: http://store.ceramicstoreinc.com/cocacooxcoca.html

Always been potentially harmful....

I don't think I have to update any further on why American Pet Diner's products are probably killing rabbits, instead of "nourishing" them.

I already wrote them a letter, and wrote how I was disgusted they used parabens. Looks like I'll be writing another.

Thanks for reading.

EDIT: Oh, yeah, forgot to mention..it's not just rabbits, it's guinea pigs and chinchillas, too, that are eating that stuff, if they're fed the "Timmy" version of American Pet Diner. For some reason parabens only appear in the "Timmy" version of American Pet Diner. Not the "Alffy". But after I'm over feeling sick, I'm going to breakdown the ingredients in their "Alffy" formulas, too.

oh,.dear..has alot homework been done here??..well darne//you want people informed but why start a stampede,,keep abreast of changes in food/feed,..call the manufacture or a-micro biologist,//,i feed purina rabbit chow and i am not aware of any recalls in/for my areas./..i wonder if we would eat our food after visiting a slaughtering plant/or a petting zoo//--.in all seriousness though this is good information but probably won,t change anything-unless there is blatent disreguard for animal health-involved.....sincerely james waller:wave:

 

[FlickeringHope]

People speak of wanting to give their pets an "all natural" diet, so how is it natural if there's cancer-causing ingredients and other crap stuff thrown in there? Seriously. Even if more rabbits diet from GI issues, cancer-causing ingredients should NOT be overlooked, and they should, in my opinion, be avoided at all costs.

 

[FlickeringHope]

No, it probably won't change anything. But I thought it was worth to mention, that, APD specifically, seems to care the least about pet care health, concerning all the ingredients and agents they've thrown into their products.

Thing is, our bodies are more "advanced" than other critter's. We stand more of a chance ingesting or coming into contact with cancer-causing, and other nasty ingredients and chemicals, than little animals do. Their systems are 100x more sensitive than our's are.

While we can eat hot dogs and other "mechanically-separated" poultry by-products, and ingest parabens in our food, and live, normal, healthy lives...Rabbits, guinea pigs, or chinchillas can't. On some chinchilla pages I've visited, it's even been advised not to give them tap water, because their systems are just THAT sensitive to the chemicals in tap water.

 

[FlickeringHope]

Honestly, what I really think? I think it's convenient. It's convenient for the massive amount of companies to use easy ingredients they can get their hands on. If "Cobalt Carbonate" is easier to get a hold of than "Cobalt Proteinate", manufactures are going to choose the cobalt carbonate, because it's more convenient.

If it's more convenient to use parabens as mold inhibitors in pet products, rather than doing the research and finding a more natural ingredient that will do the same thing, manufacturers will choose the parabens because they're easier to get a hold of.

If it's easier to get a hold of cobalt sulfate, rather than cobalt carbonate, again, manufacturers will choose the first, because it's more convenient.

Pet food companies rarely manufacture food that's purely of the pet's sake. If it's not convenient, and if the ingredients are easy to get a hold of, most manufacturers will substitute for lesser-quality, and more dangerous chemicals.

Look - my point wasn't the amount of, for example, cobalt carbonate that's in the food, my point was that they're using it at all when they could use a more natural, chelated form of it.

That's something that a LOT of pet food companies do. They may care for the well-being of the pets they're feeding, but they're not willing to go the distance, for the extra mile, to form a pellet that's completely beneficial for the rabbit, or guinea pig, or chinchilla, or cat, or dog...etc etc...

Food coloring is used in pet food to appeal to our eyes. Not our pet's eyes, but our's. Ethoxyquin, otherwise known as BHA or BHT, is often used in pet food as a preservative. It's unhealthy, it's dangerous, but it's convenient for manufacturers to get a hold of when they don't have the desire to look at other possible, but more natural ways of preserving their product's freshness.

 

[Pipp]

The problem is you're recommending some really crappy pellets here just because they don't contain certain chemicals. But there are so many other things to consider, the post ends up being detrimental for that reason alone.

I don't have the time to outline the many many content issues that have already been brought up on this forum, and chemistry is certainly not my field of expertise (and I really really welcome your input on this forum for that reason if nothing else, LOL!) but off the top of my head, indoor rabbits need pellets with a form of vitamin D3, and I remember issues with silica, and then there's the interactions between ingredients -- one vitamin/mineral/enzyme needs another to produce the proper effect -- and a lot of brands that may not contain additives WILL be prone to mycotoxins, and that will kill your rabbit a whole lot faster than the additive.

There is just a WHOLE lot more to consider.


sas

 

[Pipp]

I do like your post about putting pressure on pet food companies. But I don't think people should lie awake at night thinking their rabbits are going to die because they've had them on APD. And I really don't want to see rabbits suffering major deficiencies because people are basing their purchases only on additives.

I'm very curious to see what studies have been done. The only good thing that comes from rabbits being common lab animals is there is usually no shortage of research on things that affect them, even though its a byproduct of human study. Its just unfortunate that because it's 'only pet food' that the information won't be targeted or specific to pet food. But I would expect that some data exists somewhere.

Your reference to tap water brings up a whole other point -- the content of EVERYTHING rabbits eat and drink varies so much from area to area, you can go stark raving bonkers trying to micro-manage this stuff. One field of hay can be drastically different from another, ditto with all plants. And water content. Sensitivities also cannot be micro-managed. I break out in a rash when I touch tomatoes or carrot tops. I get gas when I eat MacIntosh apples, but not Fuji. I really doubt individual rabbits are much different.


sas :expressionless

 

[FlickeringHope]

Understood. Trust me, as much as my post, or my personality in general may grate on your nerves, I really do understand that.

I've been researching into pet food products for a long time now. I've researched ingredients to avoid, and ingredients to look for in dog and cat pet food, and have been, as of late, looking into the ingredients in common herbivore pet food. Vitamins and minerals, are, without a doubt, important. And some of the best ways to supplement their vitamin needs is through veggies and greens.

When I think of most pet food companies, I see the manufacturers standing there with a great big boiling cauldron - they start off good, some hay, some vitamins, some minerals... but then they look around, see they have leftovers of all sorts of other ingredients and chemicals, and just start tossing those in, too.

So what do we do? Your pet's food should be something that you feel good giving them, that, without a shadow of a doubt have no concerns that it's bad for them. One of the most important things to do is read the label; that's a piece of advice that has been stressed now for years upon years, but some just don't do it. It never really... came up.

There's always the option of mixing. Many owners of more exotic species of pets(degus, for one), have advised mixing foods in order to obtain the proper amount of vitamins and minerals. For instance, for a rabbit you could take a pelleted food that contains mostly vitamins and minerals, with a pelleted food that contains mostly hay or other like ingredients, and mix them at a certain ratio. Maybe 50/50, or 70/30, something like that.

But no one seems to think to do that. Look, I won't lie, consumers and pet owners are as equally at fault for wanting convenience as manufacturers are. Many owners feed their dogs and cats dry kibble, because it stores well, and it's convenient to scoop some out of the bag and into their bowl - completely missing the fact that cats are obligate carnivores, and dogs are carnivores, and in order to truly thrive need MEAT, not meat by-products, not meat meal, but real meat.

It's convenient to open up a bag of rabbit pellets and pour them a bowl and toss in some hay. What isn't convenient is looking back to where the ancestors came from, and what they ate, and replicating it. If dogs and cats can be fed a real, natural, ancestral diet, why can't rabbits, or guinea pigs, or chinchillas?

Sure, there's the issue of having the ability to go and get veggies on a daily basis. Not unless you grow your own, which is often a ton more convenient(but a good sort of convenient...) than spending $20 or more on gas to pick up veggies and greens that are only going to last a week - if that.

I apologize to anyone that may have thought I was coming off as a know-it-all, or just irritating in general, I mean I'm used to that, my concern often gets misunderstood as just trying to be a pain in the ass. Honestly, I'm just trying to help. And honestly, I think people should be just as attentive to replicated their rabbit's ancestral diet as much as people are attentive to replicating their cat or dog's ancestral diet.

Will it likely happen? Not likely. Yet I can't help but dream.