This Applies to Everyone

[FlickeringHope]

Right - when I lived in NY, what came from the tap was city water. Now that I live in MI, what comes from the tap is well-water. Neither taste very good for me, yet I can tell the difference between kitchen water and bath water, but I much rather prefer water that does NOT come from a tap, period.

The AAFCO is allowed through some pretty nasty pet brands. One of them being Science Diet. Where, through it's byproducts and other hazy ingredients, if you go to consumercomplaints.com, and type it in, there's page after page of people commenting that, only after they started their pet on, their pet started acting funny, or vomiting, or one woman even said her cat got so ill she had to go and get her euthanized.

..Yet the AAFCO passed that brand of food as "a-ok".

So yeah, the ingredients that get put into all sorts of pet products are rather shady.

But seriously, I just don't think our pets should be subjected to our convenient style of living. After all, we did enough damage pulling them out of their native environment and sticking them in cages, away from fresh air, away from living life, really, in my opinion. Why must be further the blow, and give them crap food with crap ingredients, simply because it's easy, and convenient for us?

 

[tonyshuman]

Hi, a few comments here. I have a bit of training in pharmaceutical sciences/toxicology, and I feel I can chime in a bit to help.

1,2-propanediol is not classified as a hazardous substance. Here is the chemical safety information, and you may notice that the Rabbit IV LDLO is 4200 mg/kg. That means that they had to give a rabbit 4.2 grams of the compound per kilogram of the rabbit's weight (so if the rabbit weighed 3 kilos that would be 12.6 grams) in order to see any lethality. Even if a rabbit only weighs one kilo, such as one of the dwarf breeds, only a dose of 4.2 grams or greater has been shown to cause problems. In order for a rabbit to get that amount of 1,2-propanediol they would have to eat a LOT of pellets. You may notice on the wikipedia page that it is used as a "less toxic antifreeze", in several cosmetics, and in many pharmaceutical products. There is a safety diamond on the page. The blue portion of the diamond refers to health risks. This is rated from 0-4, with 0 being no harm and 4 being significant harm. This compound is given a 0 for health risk. Therefore, it is a highly safe compound. It is used to solubilize compounds so that they can be absorbed by the body.

Regarding methyl paraben, it also not hazardous. This scientific paper shows that very high doses are tolerated without any side effects, and it is metabolized by the body, not stored. Concentrations of up to 0.1% are allowed in food for humans. The breast cancer study mentioned where it several tumors were found to contain it is not good evidence of carcinogenicity. Just because methyl paraben was found in the tumors doesn't mean that it caused the tumors. Large-scale studies in mice that were fed high amounts of methyl paraben found that it did not increase the chance of getting cancer (reviewed in article). It is used as a preservative to keep the pellets fresh.

This article demonstrates that propylparaben is not nearly as estrogenic as it is said to be, based on how it affected pregnant rats. Here it is at least 10,000 times less potent than estrogen at its effects. That means that a dose of propylparaben that would have the same effects as a dose of estrogen would have to be at least 10,000 times more concentrated. Doses of up to 0.1g/kg don't have any effect. It is also a preservative that only causes problems at high doses.

I think the reason for cobalt carbonate has already been well described. Cobalt isn't a cheap compound to come by, so the cheaper form saves everyone money.

Please don't think that we don't want you to ask questions, but being scared of some of these ingredients doesn't make sense. The best place to get information is from the scientific literature, not a popular article that reviews a scientific paper and puts a spin on it that creates fear. There are a lot of people making money on "no chemicals added" things that really are just a scam, and they profit from this fear-mongering. These compounds have been tested by scientists in well-designed studies with large sample sizes and found to be safe. Just because the name isn't something you've heard of before and is clearly a synthetic chemical doesn't mean it isn't safe. In particular, propyl paraben is actually made by plants, so it's not really a synthetic chemical at all.

 

[Pipp]

FlickeringHope wrote:

And some of the best ways to supplement their vitamin needs is through veggies and greens.

We normally take the opposite tact here, the pellets are good for supplementing the hay and veggies diets.

There's always the option of mixing. Many owners of more exotic species of pets(degus, for one), have advised mixing foods in order to obtain the proper amount of vitamins and minerals.

As noted, huge point in my book. Variety is the key to rabbit nutrition. And safety.

Sure, there's the issue of having the ability to go and get veggies on a daily basis. Not unless you grow your own, which is often a ton more convenient(but a good sort of convenient...) than spending $20 or more on gas to pick up veggies and greens that are only going to last a week - if that.

Humans should be eating way more fresh produce than they commonly do, the rabbits can have the leftovers and bunnies and slaves alike will be a whole lot healthier. Cabbage, carrots, etc, last a long time, they're always good to supplement. I don't like the thought that a lot of people react to strongly to sites that don't recommend either. The recommendation is to avoid large amounts and/or a steady diet of them. Grass and dandelions are technically veggies. Parsley is usually pretty easy to get. People can be creative.

I apologize to anyone that may have thought I was coming off as a know-it-all, or just irritating in general...

Not at all! We :hearts people who research.


sas :bunnydance:

 

[naturestee]

While it's good to look at the ingredients in our pets' foods (and ours), it's important to look beyond the surface of the information about the chemicals added to the foods. Looking just at Wikipedia (which generally has good chemical data)...

Parabens
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraben#Toxicology

Used in pharmaceuticals, foods, and cosmetics for humans.

Well, I should point out the example that Methylparaben, which is in APD's ingredient list, occurs naturally in blueberries and is antimicrobial. Parabens are "rapidly absorbed, metabolized, and excreted," meaning that possible toxic effects are minimized and studies on animals have have shown them to be practically non-toxic. Do keep in mind that safety studies use ridiculously high amounts of the chemical over long periods of time. This is to understand the risks to chemical industry workers (like me in a past job). Also, during that fast metabolism the parabens quickly become less estrogen-mimicking, reducing the possibilities of risks of cancer, etc.

Most of the paranoia about parabens comes from mass-email warnings, which I inherently distrust.

My personal feelings (and semi-professional verdict) is these are not a problem.

1,2 Propanediol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1,2-Propanediol

First, yes it is used as antifreeze but as a less toxic one than the typical chemical used. Toxicity mainly happens when large amounts are taken, as in children drinking a good bit of it. It is generally recognized as a safe food additive. However, it may have effects on cats that are not understood yet and is not allowed as an additive for cat food. It is not carcinogenic, genotoxic, or a sensitizer. Allergic skin reactions may happen but this is generally from creams and such that use a fair bit of it.

My thoughts: safe in the quantities used, but not for cats. I'd have to examine the actual research but rabbits are commonly used in toxicity research so any species-specific sensitivities there would likely have been found and noted.

Cobalt Carbonate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt_carbonate

Well, it's the very last ingredient in the list meaning that is used in the smallest amount. Like Saudade said, it is a vital mineral. This version is a simple salt and neither half of the salt would cause issues in the manner used.

My thoughts: safe in the quantities used.

-------------------------------------------------------

While I'm not about to give industry a free pass on pet food, I really don't see a problem with the additives in APD. Obviously it's not a choice if someone wants a 100% chemical-free diet for their rabbits, but if that is their choice then they have a lot of researching to do to be able to provide a balanced pellet-free diet as that will most likely be needed.

Do keep in mind that it's easy to panic over chemicals and additives when you don't understand them. If you don't have a good working and educational knowledge in biology and chemistry it's easy to see something as bad when in the proper uses it's just fine.

If you want to talk about bad pet foods, let's talk about Small World, most Kaytee foods, Hartz, LM Farms, and a whole bunch of other companies that trick pet owners into buying sickening junk food pellets and treats for their pets.

:twocents

 

[Pipp]

FlickeringHope wrote:

The AAFCO is allowed through some pretty nasty pet brands. One of them being Science Diet. ...

So yeah, the ingredients that get put into all sorts of pet products are rather shady.

This brings up another 'pet' peeve of mine -- Science Diet pays big bucks to Vets who recommend and sell their products. They've developed a not-overly-blatant but effective system that makes it hard for Vets to not carry the stuff.

And you can't underestimate corporate PR. Take for instance the Swiffer 'Urban Legend' campaign. Somebody started lobbying about their products being dangerous to pets, and mentioned that one of the ingredients was used in antifreeze which was toxic. Swiffer spun that into a rallying cry heard around the world that Swiffer's cleaner did NOT contain antifreeze and it was perfectly safe for pets.

I have yet to use the junk on my floors without my pets going off their food for the day. Cats and rabbits. That to me is a whole lot more evidence than their press release. Yet whenever I post something about that, I'm inundated with PMs, emails and links to the Snopes page about it being fine for pets. Its such overkill, it makes me think I can put it in a bowl and leave it out for the cat. Or it would if I didn't know better.

Snopes, btw, only regurgitated the press release that was sent to them by the company that manufactured the product -- something they do very often. They are NOT professional journalists or researchers on that site. They're just 'helpful'. "Sure, let me ask the company about that." And somehow in this modern age, that has become the 'expert' source for all things controversial. :X

The Internet and the economical demise of pro media providing true professional investigative journalism is opening the door for the Science Diets of the world.

It really is buyer beware. Its just really really complicated and time consuming to conduct proper investigations and studies, and figure out who to believe.


sas

 

[slavetoabunny]

All I know is that I have been feeding APD to my girls since they were 4 months old (they will be 6 years in November) and I couldn't have any healthier buns. I won't be changing anything.

 

[Saudade]

Thank you so much claire and naturestee, it's great to have people on the forum with the wealth of knowledge like you two...
I would of written up something similar but I was just leaving for a graduation exam when I noticed.

 

[Wabbitdad12]

Saudade wrote:

Sorry I would like to make a point here that Cobalt Carbonate is vital in Vitamin B12 production in the intestines. It has it's uses and in the quantities used (None of your links provide a ratio or amount) will be for those purposes.

Try contacting the manufacturers of the products before you jump to conclusions.

Also on the topics of cancer causing preservatives, everything you ingest, from the most organic carrot to diet cola, can and will cause cancer. I'd like to know how the research was done to find that these specific preservatives are cancer causing.

*edit* After conferring with pharmacist, these chemicals are fine in small doses, but just like any other chemical on the earth is dangerous in large quantities.

I would have to agree. Chemicals in their concentrated form, i.e. full strength, will have health effects. Everything you eat or drink can cause health issues if ingested in high quantities.

The FDA is charged with the enforcement of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act. The Act does require that pet foods, like human foods, be safe to eat, produced under sanitary conditions, contain no harmful substances, and be truthfully labeled.

 

[BethM]

slavetoabunny wrote:

All I know is that I have been feeding APD to my girls since they were 4 months old (they will be 6 years in November) and I couldn't have any healthier buns. I won't be changing anything.

I'm with you, Patti.

I switched to APD earlier this year, and my bunnies seem healthier than they've been in the 3 years I've had them.

I am very interested in food issues, and am very strict about what I put into and on my body, and what I will and won't feed to my rabbits. I do a lot of reading about the issues before putting them into practice, and I feel that the APD is fine for my rabbits.