(RIP)12wk old bun with runny poos

[Bonsai]

Hello!

I was gone for the past few weeks and some of you may recall I was getting a Netherland Dwarf. Well, I got him two weeks ago! He's sweet, to a point - still trying to earn the little brat's trust.

Until today, he's been happy and healthy. This afternoon, I woke up VERY late. I've been sick the past week and it has been no fun; I sleep at weird hours and no matter how many alarms I set, I seem to sleep through them all. I'm very stubborn about the care of my rabbits and since they are outdoors bunnies, I make sure to keep them adequately cooled. Heidi, my first rabbit, loves her frozen 2 liters. Totoro, my new Nethie Dwarf, doesn't think much of them. I don't know if he uses them when I'm gone, but he stays out on the wire portion of his cage (he has a very large wood-bottomed part that is blocked off with his litterbox, copious amounts of hay, water, etc so he is not on the wire unless he wants to be!) a lot of times. Probably because we've had a nice breeze the past few days.

Anyways, I overslept today which means neither bun got their frozen water bottles until about 3pm - meaning they'd been in our heat for about 3 hours. Heidi seemed okay; a little hot, but she was inquisitive and bossy as always. Totoro, however, seemed a bit lethargic. He was lying spread out with his head on one of the wooden planks supporting the wire part of his cage and wasn't reacting much to my presence. I wrote it off as the heat and continued as normal, cleaning his and Heidi's cages, stocking new straw in both and giving them their litterboxes. Totoro perked up a little and was curious about what I was doing, but wasn't running around the blocked in part of his cage periscoping like usual. He was still nibbling and throwing a few pieces of straw like he normally does when I clean his cage, though.

I decided I'd wait a couple hours and check on him again, leaving him be for a bit while I did other things. When I went to check on him, I noticed his butt had hairs on it that were matted together - they hadn't been when I left a few hours before. Upon further inspection, he had walked through some of his own, very mushy poops. I got the carrier, lured him inside it, and brought him inside. I cleaned his butt off, which he did NOT appreciate, and I left him a saucer of his pellets and his bottle of water in the carrier.

He seems to be "okay". He's not as inquisitive and active as usual but he is still a bit nosy, and was curious enough about the carrier to go from the wired part into the closed in part to investigate. So he isn't so lethargic he just can't be bothered to move, he's just lethargic enough to worry me.

What should I be doing right now? I'm going to offer only pellets and water - he won't touch hay. I'd offer just hay and water but I'd rather he eat something rather than nothing. I'm going to call a vet in the morning but some financial stuff went down today and yesterday that leaves us so strapped even our own dinners were very bare.

So I don't know if I'll be able to take him to a vet. Basically, I'm asking for home remedies or things I should try to do to keep him comfortable until seeing a vet is feasible. Trust me, I don't like this either!! Just don't beat me up for it, I already feel terrible. We didn't expect what happened this week to happen, but it did, and there's not much we can do about it.

Here's some more details:

- He is eating Purina Show Formula (what the breeder was feeding him, he has been fine on it)

- I clean his cage with 1 part vinegar to 2 parts water solution, and cage is cleaned every 2~3 days

- He is 85% trained to his litterbox. All pees are done there, most poops are made there (or in his food bowl...)

- He is NOT caged with any other rabbits

- Heidi is being transitioned to Purina Show Formula and has no adverse reaction, leading me to believe it is not the bag of food causing upset

- I have been giving him a clover or two every other day as a treat, to kind of gain his trust. I did this with my other rabbit, but could it be the clovers messing with my little man's tummy?

- His bedding is straw; could he be eating straw and upsetting his stomach?

Sorry for all the writing there, I'm just scared. I feel like the worst bunny owner. I have no idea what the problem is but I want it fixed so much. I hate that my little guy is sick.

For your patience, here's a picture of my Totoro:

PS - no, that wire in the back cannot hurt him, its very dull

 

[Maureen Las]

Although GI disturbances are not uncommon in young rabbits I would guess that this runny poop is a GI disturbance from the heat. Here is RO's library info on over heating and how to keep a rabbit cool.
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f22/heat-stress-23105/


You stated that he doesn't eat hay but not why? Maybe it is because he is filling up on pellets and isn't hungry and/or he has not been exposed to really good quality grassy hay. Most rabbit will eat hay if it is high quality and if they are hungry enough. It is really really vital to work at incorporating hay into his diet as it is the cornerstone for good nutrition and GI health in a rabbit. A 3 month old rabbit can eat alfalfa hay which most rabbit LOVE and the ideal would be to mix long stemmed green grass hay with alfalfa.
I would eliminated the clover treat for the time being as clover can be gasey.

I would make sure to keep him cool the next several days and that may resolve your problems. If you can get a probiotic like benebac and give a dose that also would be helpful. Probiotics for horses like Probios can also be given to a rabbit.
If the runny poop and behavior changes persist you need to get him to a vet .
I hope that he is back to his normal self tomorrow

Since he is an outdoor rabbit there is always the danger of fly strike when a rabbit has runny poop so you need to keep him very clean and inspect him every day . .

 

[Bonsai]

Thank you very much, Angie!

I think it was the heat, too, and I'm going to try and keep him inside until he's got normal poos again.

He just simply won't eat hay! Not sure why, honestly. I've tried two brands on him; his first night here, I didn't have pellets so he was offered just timothy hay but I don't think he had even touched it. Hard to know whether that was just him being overwhelmed by new place or him just not wanting the hay. He'll nibble it but with him being so tiny, I have a hard time figuring out whether he's eating much or not LOL. I hate to limit his pellets since he's a baby and I've always read not to, but should I do so?

I hope he's okay tomorrow, too! I'm so worried. I'm going to make a pot of coffee in a moment - there's no way I'm gonna be able to sleep with my little dude sick. On the Probios, what should the dosage amount and frequency be for a Netherland Dwarf his age? I'm pretty sure he's under 1lb in weight. I'll call around to local feed stores/horse-related stores and see if I can find any. We have several, with all hope I can find some!

Fly strike is what really concerns me. ): That's why he was brought straight in when I noticed the runny poos on his butt. No way I'm letting any of my babies get fly struck! Lol.

 

[Bonsai]

Wanted to update you guys! Totoro got progressively a little more active last night as the night went on. I did have to clean his butt a second time and this morning, I checked and... Well... He's gonna have to have a shallow bath for his bum. I thought I had cleaned it off better but apparently not. I'm going to search the house for an acceptable shampoo. We have some scentless "all pet" shampoo, but I'm wary of using it. Is there anything in the shampoos that I should look for that would be hazardous/poisonous to my little guy? I'd like to avoid shampoo, but I do not think water alone will wash this off and things online say to use shampoo! x_x

At least, though, it appears Totoro has not had anymore loose stools. At least not like he had last night/yesterday evening. Still keeping him in until I see some nice, round poops, though.

 

[Bonsai]

Finally found the shampoo! It was under our bathroom sink this whole time lol.

The shampoo I have is "Top Performance Soothing Suds". I have the large, industrial bottle that requires dilution so I'll dilute it for sure before use. It says "Fragrance-free, hypoallergenic, and tearless". "Extremely Gentle and Mild", and "dye-free, pH-balanced". I don't have the ingredients on the bottle for whatever reason, but I believe this is the ingredient list (found on an online listing!):

Ingredients are deionized water, sodium trideceth sulfate, cocomidopropyl hydroxysultaine, disodium laureth sulfosuccinate, PEG-150 distearate polyquaternium 7, DMDM-hydantoine, tetrasodium EDTA

Would this be okay to use on him? Just a tablespoon in the water, too... I planned on giving him a bum bath this morning then giving him until the evening to fully dry (or tomorrow morning, really). My room is "so-so", not cold or hot. So I don't think he'll chill. He has a plush towel to cuddle up to, too. c:

 

[Bonsai]

Decided to go ahead with the shampoo. He didn't appreciate the experience... I flipped him over and checked his belly/bottom and he seems okay now. He still smells poopy. :/ But I'm hoping he'll clean what remains of it off. Trying to convince head of household to let me keep him inside a few days to see if he improves... Honestly, he isn't bothering anything - you can't smell the poop unless you stick your head in front of his cage. So I don't know how he's such a bother. D: But oh well.

He is peeing as normal, drinking plenty of water, and caught him nibbling hay. So I think he's feeling a bit better, though this whole bath business seems to have upset him LOL. He tolerated it better than I thought he would, for sure.

I covered my vent with a blanket so there's no draft. I'll uncover half if it starts feeling TOO warm in here and place him on the side of the room that its covered on.

Is there anything else I should be doing for my li'l' guy right now?

 

[Maureen Las]

I am really not familiar with that shampoo but it sounds like it would be fine. I would dilute it down as much as you can using just enough to get the poop off. You are right that it is hard to get it off when it is stuck to the fur. The problem really would be if he grooms himself and ingests the residue. I have given butt baths ( at our shelter ) in a large tub using the long spray wand and running the water horizontally under the bun so the bottom and the feet are getting wet but most of the bun remains dry. I always try to get all the soap off which is not always easy.
It would be easier to give benebac in small individual tubes to try to dose Probios but if you do use Probios use just a tiny amount off your finger. Benebac is sold at places like Petco or Petsmart in the small mammal area. Do not get Benebac for birds as it is not the same thing although the dog /cat product is OK. Just give one dose

I would try to give him some alfalfa hay and maybe cut back some on the pellets.
If he still has runny poop today I would be concerned and take him to a vet . I do agree that keeping him inside with you for now is a really good idea. Maybe he will end up to be an indoor bun :sunshine:
There is a product called the Biosponge that is very effective in binding toxins in a young animals GI tract but it would not be immediately available although your vet may have some... ( if the loose poop continues)

 

[majorv]

He's a cutie! Did the breeder keep his rabbits in a climate controlled barn, or outside?

 

[Maureen Las]

We were writing at the same time so I just read your last post. is his poop still loose?

 

[Bonsai]

@Angieluv: I rinsed as much as he'd allow me to. He started struggling and I was afraid he'd hurt himself or get free of my hands and jump off our counter! This is the first time I've given a bun a bath and since I had no one who would help me, it was very stressful for both of us.

In the end, I coddled him against my chest and dried him off as I resituated his carrier's bedding. I checked the bedding and I saw pee stains so I know he's been peeing and tiny bits of somewhat loose poops. Very small poops, about the size of half his normal droppings. There were no new poop on his tummy and belly, it was just left over from last night. He's kinda dark colored on his feet and his tail/genitals so it was hard to tell last night if I was getting it all off!! I found small bits of fur he had pulled out on his own in his carrier (I feel terrible about that) so I think he got some of the worst of the stuck poo off himself. The bath was because I could feel some hardened bits on his bum and tummy, so I wanted to make sure it was all off. His water was very dingy (it clouded almost immediately) so I think I made the right call.

Should I get some baby cornstarch to use after this? I don't want to give him another bum bath unless I absolutely must - I really do not like him being wet and I am 100% sure he doesn't like it either, hehe.

I've still got to call about the Probiotic; my other rabbit decided to throw ALL her straw out and upturn her litterbox so all the aspen and straw would fall out all over the place lol. Needless to say, it was quite the clean up and took me a while.

Anywho, his poop is not nearly as bad anymore but his appetite is also still a bit subdued so that could be why. I've put a bunch of hay in there and a small handful of pellets; going to get him out of the carrier after my nieces leave and see if a change of scenery helps him any. Plus I need to scrub the carrier out.

Should I do something to whet his appetite? I think he's mostly just stressed from everything that's happened since yesterday evening. He is alert, he was playing with his hay bowl earlier. Just a little slower than usual, like when you're getting over a cold or something.

Also - I'm hoping he winds up being a house bunny, too, haha. My cat has already come to terms with him. The first hour was full of "what's this" and him sitting on top of the carrier trying to get a good look. Finally, he seemed to get his fill and just laid next to me. xD Not that I trust him alone with him, of course! Love my Milo but I don't trust him with a prey animal smaller than him lol.

@Majorv: Thank you! The breeder kept her bunnies in two different barns. Weaned babies in one barn and older does and bucks in a separate one. There were fans in there and such and none of the buns seemed uncomfortable, the ammonia was a bit strong though. All the rabbits were clean though!

 

[Nancy McClelland]

Instead of hay, try giving him alfalfa for his first six months.

 

[Bonsai]

Thank you, Nancy (Or Larry)! I'll get her a bale as soon as finances allow. They run about $9 per small bale here; the last farmer bale of alfalfa I got was untouched by my picky Heidi so I'm hesitant to try another and will go for a petstore one. xP

Also, I have discovered the light discharge in Totoro's eyes is getting a bit worse. His eyes now have a slightly angry red edge and I'm 99% sure it is weepy eye. I found online a little rabbitry page suggesting a chamomile + saline concoction. Would just saline mix be okay or would the chamomile help too? I hate to irritate his eyes, he's been squinting them more today than usual. ): I plan on making something to use in the morning; so tired right now I'm afraid of messing the mixture up.

Also, this is the page on weepy eye I was reading:

http://4dfarmandrabbitry.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/natural-treatment-of-weepy-eye/

Again I must ask myself, why do my animals have to worry me so?!

 

[Maureen Las]

Weepy eye is conjunctivitis /pink eye and at this point I would not try natural remedies without a correct diagnosis. I think that he needs a vet visit with a rabbit knowledgeable vet. Eye problems often are symptoms of other issues like a blocked tear ducts and/or teeth issues.
If it is conjunctivitis from a bacterial infection he will need prescribed antibiotics.

 

[Bonsai]

Would it be okay to try a saline mix in the meanwhile and see if that helps? If nothing else, it would just keep his eyes cleaned, right? My main problem is that the only savvy vets I've found are an hour away and that one, I'm not even sure about because I got mixed responses when I asked them about rabbits to verify knowledge. I kinda live in the middle of nowhere in my state and while I think the world of my rabbits, the rest of my family is a little less sympathetic when I mention driving hours out to see a vet.

I think I know an exotics vet who may be able to take care of his eyes here in town; I think he just doesn't perform surgeries, only general treatment. I'll give a call in the morning and see if I can get little guy in on Monday; he is usually booked solid on Saturdays.

 

[Bonsai]

Wanted to update you guys!

I found a rabbit vet about 30 minutes out that I can take Totoro to Monday if he's no better. I think he's doing a bit better - I mean, he's pooping. He wasn't doing that yesterday. Everything remains a little mushy but I've been microwaving some pellets every once in a while to offer him and he seems to really like that, he comes straight to it and nibbles. He's drinking plenty of water.

The vet at the clinic, over the phone, said he'll definitely need antibiotics for his eyes if it is indeed pink eye - which I highly suspect it is. His prices were very affordable and I'm really optimistic. c: He seemed like he really knew what he was talking about over the phone - immediately asked what I'd been feeding, about changes, etc. I haven't made the appointment yet but he said I could call Monday morning and make it if I still have a ride there and Totes needs it.

Totoro is very alert and active, though. He is digging on the sheet like crazy, haha. I'm sitting in the bathroom with him for a few hours today; I'll be doing the same everyday until he's better. Maybe with some luck, he'll become a house bun. I think he likes the prospect of it already - he's already wanting in my lap without me putting him there, haha. I'm just happy he's moving - that's good to get the gut moving, right? I'm scared he's going through stasis so I'm very eager to get him eating and moving - and especially pooping!

 

[Maureen Las]

I am so glad that you found a vet!. If there should be discharge from his eye and/or his eyes get sticky you can use sterile saline drops to wash them out ( like the kind that are sold in the contact lens section of the pharmacy. Just plain saline drops without additives.)

There is a type of food that is sold by Oxbow called Critical Care that is very useful for times when rabbits are in stasis or have some other physical problem and are not eating well. It contains everything a rabbit needs including probiotics and hay fiber . It is not sold in stores but can be ordered in select stores on-line ( or bought at a vet office) . I had a rabbit who could not eat regular food (hay and pellets) because of severe dental problems and he ate this food solely for years and was healthy. Usually Critical care is for short-term use.
I know that you do not have this available to you right now but just wanted you to know that it is a good idea to keep Critical care on hand for emergency use. Something that you might want to think about .
Lambert vet supply sells it without a prescription and at a lower cost than I have seen ...

http://www.lambertvetsupply.com/Critical-Care_p_2171.html

 

[Bonsai]

I didn't expect to find this vet! He didn't have a listing in the phonebook (unless I overlooked it, which could be the case) the several times I've gone on a Bunny-Vet frenzy, haha. He was very knowledgeable over the phone when I called so I feel really good about it. The one in the other city I mentioned before... They were kinda rude lol. They also claimed you fast rabbits before a surgery!! I ran and never looked back on that one. That's a deal-breaker for me.

The vet told me to try those but when I found some in our bathroom, it had all the additives. Would it be possible to make my own with warm water an non-ionized salt? We use sea salt regularly because my grandpa has congestive heart failure and can't have the normal stuff. xP So I could easily make some with that, couldn't I? It'd only be to keep his eyes kinda cleaner; they're a bit crusty now and I didn't want to clean with just water.

Thank you for the link to critical care! I'll definitely order some very soon. Right now, Totoro is eating sorta. I gave him a dose of Simethicone (first dose) at about 6:20 PM my time - he's due for another dose in about 25 minutes. He took most if not all of a 1ml dose and he seems to be feeling better! I'm going to put him back in the bathroom a bit in about 2~3 hours - after his last dose of simethicone. He's nibbling a little bit of hay and drinking tons of water so I'm feeling really good right now. He made me feel terrible earlier, he had such a look of resignation when I was giving him the gas drops. Had his little ears pulled back and his cheek puffed up, hehe. He actually seems to like the taste of the drops, though; they do smell kinda sweet. He wasn't a problem to dose after he tasted it lol.

Also, how does one properly "bunny burrito"? I spent about 20 minutes wrangling with him and he is very wriggly!! I'm so scared of hurting him. I finally managed to get it but I think there must be an easier way than what I'm doing lol.

 

[Maureen Las]

A home made sterile saline solution is risky to put in eyes ..would recommend picking up a bottle of sterile saline drops at drugstore.
http://www.emedicinehealth.com/normal_saline_eye_wash_solution-health/article_em.htm

One bunny burrito from you tube; it is not as easy as it looks ;-( but gives a general picture

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOWNlaRyMRo[/ame]

 

[majorv]

If necessary, you can make your own eye wash but you need to either use distilled water or boil water and let it cool...it has to be sterile. You might search the internet for making an eye wash, to get the proper salt to water ratio.

If you can't secure him in a towel then you might be able to get on your knees, with him between them. Your legs crossed so he can't back up and then hold his head up a little to get the gas drops in.

 

[**SRonchi1]

He is a real cutie!! When I give a butt bath I put one hand over to the two front feet and my other hand on his two back feet & flip them on there back on an angle so only the genital area and tail is getting wet. I wet with warm water first them put them on a towel, squirt a little shampoo on the fingers you use to hold the back legs & complete the process again. When you have finished pop him back on the towel, turn the water on again & rince him off using the same technique. They can get a lil stressed out when they get a full body bath. Unfortunatly the best way to help him out is just continually washing his bum off to keep it nice and clean. I had a poopy butt with my 8week old mini lop but hers was due to veggies I had introduced and the rule with that is too cut out all greens & up fibre hay etc. I would not worry about giving him clover as the best way to clear up his poopy bum would be by increasing his fibre with hay & pellets. I would say he was getting GI stasis from the heat as buns don't do great in hot weather as they tend not to eat when they are hot. Maybe give him a bowl of water with ice blocks in as well as his drip bottle so he can get more water in to prevent dehydration. Definatly keep him inside to keep an eye on him- How could you husband not want that gorgeous face around!

Oops sorry didn't see all your other posts :/