Need Advice Re Buttercup

[SOOOSKA]

Hi, Chris brought Buttercup for his 6 month appointment today to a Rabbit savy Vet.

Both Chris and I have thought in the past couple of weeks that Buttercup has gained a little weight around his tummy. We really weren't too concerned as he had lost weight at Xmas time when he was having the mucous in his stools.

So today Dr. A tells Chris he can't feel any of Buttercups organs as he has alot of fluid in his abdomen. He did asperate a small amount of the fluid.

He said it was "Ascites" cause could be Heart failure, Liver tumour or failure, or a tumour in the abdomen. This was alot for me to take in all at once.

Now here is what he is suggesting we do:

Screen Diagnostic Blood work

Xrays 2 views

Anesthetic - Brief Procedure

Abdomenocentesis

Ultrasound Abdomen

So my understanding is Buttercup is quite sick (but he is acting normal right now)as it can be any of the above. The Doctor said he may just need Water pills for the rest of his life.

Chris is really leary about putting him through so much at his age (he'll be 10 in a couple of weeks). It has nothing to do with the cost which are really steep but like I said we'd spend any amount of money for him to be better.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Susan

 

[naturestee]

Oh boy. Well, here's what Wikipedia has to say:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ascites

I don't recall any other forum rabbits having this, but I could be wrong. And not everyone is so vigilant in taking their buns to the vet either. Good thing you are!

Did the vet think his heart sounded normal?

I'd start with the blood work and see what that tells you. It won't require any anesthesia, etc., to take a blood sample and shouldn't be too stressful for him. That would tell you whether he has liver or kidney problems (Wikipedia says liver problems are a common cause of ascites) and could show whether there other problems too. At the very least it could narrow down the list of possible causes andyour vet might be able to choose a smaller number of procedures he'd like to do so Buttercup isn't put through as much stress.

Don't be afraid to ask for a second vet to look at him too. It never hurts. But I'd wait until the bloodwork is done and you have an initial diagnosis. Right now, all you know is the symptom but not what is causing it.

:hug:

 

[Maureen Las]

I agree with Angela ...doing the blood work will most likely tell a lot.
if it is congestive heart failure I have heard of buns on diuretics for fairly lengthy periods of time.

The other procedures although expensive are not particularly invasive and probably would not stress him out to much.

it would be up to you how far you want to go butjust take it one day at a time

it is trulya shock when the bun shows no symptoms of illness yet is sick. He is a fairly old guy and has had a great life.

Sorry about this Sooska and i know that you'll keep us up-dated.

 

[AngelnSnuffy]

I'm sorry to hear this Susan. I just wanted to add, you'd just need an x-ray to determine heart failure, it will show an enlarged heart and will also show if there is fluid surrounding it. Does Buttercup ever experience fast breathing when at rest at all?

Best of luck to you guys. Keep us posted.

 

[Haley]

Oh Susan, Im so sorry to hear that Buttercup isnt well. Im praying our little boy will be ok. I know how special he is to you and Chris (and to all of us!). Its so scarey when they arent well- especially not knowing what it is. :nerves1

I agree with the others that I would go ahead with the blood test and possibly an xray right now. Both should be able to be done without anesthetizing, which will be less stressful.

I also agree about possibly seeing a second vet (maybe the one Nad uses?) just to see what they say. I know me seeing different vets is what saved Max's life when he was sick. A second opinion cant hurt.

Does he appear to be in any pain? Is he still very active?

I'll pray for Buttercup tonight. Its killing me to think of the little guy being sick ray:

 

[AngelnSnuffy]

Haley wrote:

Both should be able to be done without anesthetizing, which will be less stressful.

On this comment alone, I just want to stress, it happened and I did not know it would be done! (Yes, I did sign forms before leaving. I had no intention BunBun would be put out.) BunBun was kept for some testing upon taking him in for fast breathing, and they put him out and did an x-ray while I didn't know. But, since he was unharmed, I didn't pitch a fit( I signed the forms) It was my first rabbit before even having the forum.

There are some positions needed for x-ray that they are needed to be put out, say for a heart x-ray? They need to be flat on the surface. The vets cannot keep them that still for the best composite. Therefore, a need to put them out for it.

I highly recommend you ask questions. I highly recommend the x-rays, but ask about this prior. This mistake I made caneducate you all. (I only just now remembered that!:shock

 

[ra7751]

Hi Susan,

Sorry to hear about Buttercup. You know that I see this type of thing all the time. Based on what you said the doctor wants to do....I would say you have a very skilled doctor. Since you seem to be like me....I would do everything suggested. The blood work will give a base line to see how the organs are responding either to the condition or to treatment. There will most likely be regular blood panels performed in order to see the progression or hopefully the remission of this issue. I suspect based on the diagnosis suggested by your doctor that he is considering pulmonary edema to be the most likely cause of this concern....it's generally known as congestive heart failure (CHF). This condition can be caused by several things....and unfortunately...due to the declining efficiency of organs in older animals,age is probably going to factor in. For those that don't know whatCHF is...it's an abnormal build up of fluids in the body cavity. It causes internal pressure on the vital organs...primarily the heart and lungs and forces them to work harder to perform their job. The centesis procedure will check for any infections (bacterial, viral or otherwise) among other things. It will pull a "virgin" sample of the fluid from the abdomen (a similar procedure is sometimes performed with urinary tract issues to extract urine directly from the bladder). The ultrasound will check for soft tissue issues like a fatty tumor or abscess. All the rads will most likely be able to see fluid in the lungs and around the heart.

As far as the anesthesia....there is risk in everything. Even taking something "safe" like a Tylenol has risk. The key is to determine if the benefit outweighs the risk. Personally, I think I would sedate Buttercup in order to get an accurate view of what is going on. We pretty much know we have a very talented vet....and in the hands of a skilled vet, sedation in a rabbit now is pretty routine (but still has some risks). We have sedated senior buns as well as cottontails weighing less than 40g with no problem. And sometimes the sedation doesn't have to be a full sedation....Valium or Ketamine (Special K) will sometimes put them on a "magic carpet ride" and they will be flying high enough that you can do whatever you need to do and they really don't care. There are also injectable anethesias (something that was taboo just a year or so ago) that can be safely used in rabbits. One shot puts them under.....and one shot of reversing agent brings them right back up. Just another option that can be looked at if full sedation is required.

The only thing I could suggest that was mentioned but I didn't see it being done is the diuretic. Lasix is a good thing in these situations. Healing vibes headed to Buttercup.

Randy

 

[SOOOSKA]

Thanks everyone for your replies and well wishes for our Baby Buttercup.

I really think we will end up doing all the tests and procedures the Vet suggested, this way we will at least know what we are dealing with.

Buttercup breathing seems normal but I will definetely pay much closer attention to his breathing.

Susan & Buttercup:apollo:

 

[LuvaBun]

Oh Susan, I'm so sorry to hear Buttercup has problems. At least he is OK in himself, which is a good start.

I don't really have anything useful to add - I too would have the tests done to find out what is going on.

Praying for Buttercup and you and Chris!

Jan

 

[LuvaBun]

Hi Susan, how's Buttercup doing? I've been thinking about him and hope he's OK (you too, of course )

Jan

 

[SOOOSKA]

Hi Jan thanks for asking.

He seems to be ok at the moment. He goes in next Wednesday for all the tests and to have the fluid drained. I'm so worried about him having a General Anesthetic (sp?).

I think I'm going to measure his tummy to see if it's getting bigger. Honestly it's so hard to tell, sometimes it looks bigger than other times.

He's having his 10th Birthday party tomorrow (one week early, we're celabrating his and mine together).

Susan

 

[Haley]

Im glad to hear he's still doing ok. Give him lots of birthday kisses from his Aunt Haley. I love that little boy.

I'll be praying for him this week.

 

[SOOOSKA]

So we are bringing Buttercup in tomorrow (August 6) for 10:15 am. for his tests and to have his abdomen drained of the fluid.

Please everyone say a prayer that everything goes ok. Both Chris and I will be with him.

Thanks

Susanray::dancingorig:

 

[AngelnSnuffy]

I hope all goes well Susan! Poor Buttercup.

ray: and :hug:for you and Chris! You guys are awesome bun parents!

 

[Maureen Las]

ray:I really hope that everything goes well tomorrow, Susanink iris:

 

[Haley]

Thinking of Buttercup tonight.. I'll be saying a prayer tonight and tomorrow morning for my favorite little boy.

Give him a kiss from me, will you Susan? Tell him Im praying he will be ok.

ray:Haley

 

[LuvaBun]

I will be thinking and praying for you all tomorrow. Good luck, Buttercup!

Jan

 

[SOOOSKA]

Thanks everyone for your prayers.

We just got back from the Vets, of course they were running late. He did the Ultra Sound and Xray. The xray really didn't show anything bad, I guess he took the xray before he drained the 270 cc of fluid from Buttercup. He did say that his heart looked normal. Supposidly the US also looked normal, he even got a second opinion from one of the other Vets on duty.

They are sending a sample of the fluid to the lab to be tested. They tried to get blood but had a hard time getting it so what they did get they are sending it out also to the lab.

We have to go back in a week to get more results. He did mention about giving Lasix to him in the future. Randy he mentioned it as a liquid, have you heard of it coming in liquid form?

So as of right now we still don't know what is causing the fluid in his abdomen. Buttercup looks so much better now with all that fluid drained, the poor guy must have been so uncomfortable . He's resting at the moment, drank alot of water, ate a little bit of greens and also some hay.

Susan

 

[naturestee]

270 cc?:shock:

I'm glad he's doing ok even with all the fuss. Hopefully the test results won't show anything too bad.

 

[polly]

Ouch poor guy glad he is feeling well enough toeat I hope they can find out wha is going on and help :hug: