My Foster will ONLY eat greens and has Snuffles.......

[Bunster.love]

Obviously, ONLY eating Greens is a concern for many reasons. He has a stubborn flareup of his snuffles - he has been actively noisy for a few months now - though it is not in his lungs and he does not have any discharge. Trying anoJust starting a different antibiotic - but thats another story.... aside from that...... His diet - He only PICKS at a few pellets and only takes a few bites of hay. Our vet has examined his teeth (with otoscope) and has said they are fine. Can she be overlooking something? This is a bun who used to eat hay & pellets without a problem. He has dark rust urine (understandable with all the greens). I know dehydration is also a factor - but hes not badly dehydrated. His poops have been well formed & pretty normal sized lately. He LOVES treats - so I would take a recommendation on what I can supplement him with to help his lack of eating hay. I was thinking homemade hay cookies Any recipes that are exceptionally high fiber & pallatable? How long can he eat ONLY greens? And how much? He initially had lost weight, giving him LOTS of greens, he has gained a little back . My plan is to give him as much as he needs to keep his more consisitent.......

 

[Preitler]

What greens?

I moostly feed fresh forage - grasses, weeds, leafs... - most of the year, imo the most natural diet, and they barely touch any hay at those times, the fresh stuff just is more yummy. Hay is just a convinient - and in winter necessary - replacement for the fresh version of it.
Mine only get a few pellets as treats.

Pee color, different to humans, isn't really an indicator for hydration, and even rather light pee can darken quickly when in contact with air. When on a mostly greens diet most don't drink much.

What exactly are the symptoms of those "snuffles"? Noisy doesn't mean it's that, my girl snors like a champ...

 

[JBun]

Did the vet take any head or chest xrays? With the rabbit favoring soft foods and having a suspected case of an ongoing upper respiratory infection, it seems likely the infection is either dental related and causing mouth pain while chewing harder foods, or spread to somewhere in the head that causes significant enough mouth/jaw pain to affect the rabbits appetite. Destruction of the nasal cavity from the ongoing infection, or infection spread to the bone, are a few possibilities.

https://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Respiratory/Bacterial/URI.htm

https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Snuffles

https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=11131&id=3843938

If the antibiotic azithromycin hasn't been tried yet, that might be something to consider. Though in rare instances some rabbits can have severe negative digestive reactions to it, and it can't be used in those cases, for the most part it doesn't cause significant issues and can be a very good and very effective antibiotic for rabbits because it penetrates the bone and tissue so well to get right to the infection, and usually relatively quickly.

I've had really good results with it treating various stubborn infections in my rabbits and really only saw some mild stomach cramping for a couple hours after administering the dose, then my rabbits were fine and resumed eating normally. Usually after only 2 or 3 days, I saw significant improvement with the infection clearing up visibly (and audibly), almost completely.

But it does depend on the bacteria present, on whether it would be effective. And for treatment, only the higher dose (50mg/kg) for an extended treatment period (3-4 weeks) worked at getting rid of the infection completely. The lower dose of 30mg/kg for 2-3 weeks just ended up in the infection returning after the antibiotic was stopped. Given on a semi empty stomach seems to work best at preventing a negative digestive reaction from occurring.

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/azithromycin

Since your bun is favoring soft foods, you could try soaking the pellets in warm water to make a pellet mush, and see if your bun will eat that on his own from a dish. Or use critical care or other recovery food mix, just more expensive. It does need to be made up fresh and shouldn't be left out all day (bacterial growth issues). If your bun won't eat the softened mush on his own, you may need to start syringe feeds, which is something your vet should have already advised on if they're a decent rabbit vet.

https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Medicating_your_rabbit

https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/syringe-feeding-guide/

Garden/store bought greens alone (excluding foraged plants) aren't enough nutrition and your buns health will start to be affected. They're usually too high in water content, and too low in indigestible fiber and protein, to provide adequate nutrition to a rabbit long term. Fresh grass and forage are possibilities to supplement with if you have access, though these do need to be introduced gradually and one item at a time. I would also suggest to offer a salt lick until your bun is eating pellets or a pellet mush which has added dietary sodium, as only greens with all that excess water content, may cause a depletion of sodium levels in the body due to the excess urination.

https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/everything-you-have-always-wanted-to-know-about-foraging-for-rabbits/

https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/articles/free-food-for-rabbits/foraging

http://bunnyapproved.com/foraging-101-collecting-fresh-greens-for-your-rabbit/

If your vet didn't do xrays and didn't advise on starting syringe feeds to make up for the selective eating and lack of pellet/hay eating, I'd have concerns about how knowledgeable they are with rabbits. If they aren't very experienced or you have concerns, it may be worth finding a more knowledgeable rabbit vet for a second opinion. Though I guess being a foster, the vet choice is decided by the organization you're fostering for. So maybe discuss a different vet with them if you feel a better rabbit vet is needed.

https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Choosing_a_rabbit_veterinarian

https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/New_York

 

[Bunster.love]

What greens?

I moostly feed fresh forage - grasses, weeds, leafs... - most of the year, imo the most natural diet, and they barely touch any hay at those times, the fresh stuff just is more yummy. Hay is just a convinient - and in winter necessary - replacement for the fresh version of it.
Mine only get a few pellets as treats.

Pee color, different to humans, isn't really an indicator for hydration, and even rather light pee can darken quickly when in contact with air. When on a mostly greens diet most don't drink much.

What exactly are the symptoms of those "snuffles"? Noisy doesn't mean it's that, my girl snors like a champ...

First - off - Thank you for your replay.
I attached a video if it will play. Turn up the volume! It is not teeth grinding as it may sound....he does it more when excited or stressed. You can see he is excited for treats & will take a crunchy treat (thats why I was thinking healthy cookies)

I know the pee color is not a prime indicator for hydration - rather poop size & visible signs is more what I go by. I never knew it was the exposure to the air that causes it to deepen in color...Interesting.

So would "cat grass" suffices as forage & replace hay? I know its the "barbs" on the hay that is helpful for their teeth because they need to grind it. I don't know what is safe to pick other than people safe leafy greens (collards, radish greens, kale spinach etc & carrot tops.)

 

[Bunster.love]

Did the vet take any head or chest xrays? With the rabbit favoring soft foods and having a suspected case of an ongoing upper respiratory infection, it seems likely the infection is either dental related and causing mouth pain while chewing harder foods, or spread to somewhere in the head that causes significant enough mouth/jaw pain to affect the rabbits appetite. Destruction of the nasal cavity from the ongoing infection, or infection spread to the bone, are a few possibilities.

https://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Respiratory/Bacterial/URI.htm

https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Snuffles

https://www.vin.com/apputil/content/defaultadv1.aspx?pId=11131&id=3843938

If the antibiotic azithromycin hasn't been tried yet, that might be something to consider. Though in rare instances some rabbits can have severe negative digestive reactions to it, and it can't be used in those cases, for the most part it doesn't cause significant issues and can be a very good and very effective antibiotic for rabbits because it penetrates the bone and tissue so well to get right to the infection, and usually relatively quickly.

I've had really good results with it treating various stubborn infections in my rabbits and really only saw some mild stomach cramping for a couple hours after administering the dose, then my rabbits were fine and resumed eating normally. Usually after only 2 or 3 days, I saw significant improvement with the infection clearing up visibly (and audibly), almost completely.

But it does depend on the bacteria present, on whether it would be effective. And for treatment, only the higher dose (50mg/kg) for an extended treatment period (3-4 weeks) worked at getting rid of the infection completely. The lower dose of 30mg/kg for 2-3 weeks just ended up in the infection returning after the antibiotic was stopped. Given on a semi empty stomach seems to work best at preventing a negative digestive reaction from occurring.

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/azithromycin

Since your bun is favoring soft foods, you could try soaking the pellets in warm water to make a pellet mush, and see if your bun will eat that on his own from a dish. Or use critical care or other recovery food mix, just more expensive. It does need to be made up fresh and shouldn't be left out all day (bacterial growth issues). If your bun won't eat the softened mush on his own, you may need to start syringe feeds, which is something your vet should have already advised on if they're a decent rabbit vet.

https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Medicating_your_rabbit

https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/syringe-feeding-guide/

Garden/store bought greens alone (excluding foraged plants) aren't enough nutrition and your buns health will start to be affected. They're usually too high in water content, and too low in indigestible fiber and protein, to provide adequate nutrition to a rabbit long term. Fresh grass and forage are possibilities to supplement with if you have access, though these do need to be introduced gradually and one item at a time. I would also suggest to offer a salt lick until your bun is eating pellets or a pellet mush which has added dietary sodium, as only greens with all that excess water content, may cause a depletion of sodium levels in the body due to the excess urination.

https://rabbitwelfare.co.uk/everything-you-have-always-wanted-to-know-about-foraging-for-rabbits/

https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/articles/free-food-for-rabbits/foraging

http://bunnyapproved.com/foraging-101-collecting-fresh-greens-for-your-rabbit/

If your vet didn't do xrays and didn't advise on starting syringe feeds to make up for the selective eating and lack of pellet/hay eating, I'd have concerns about how knowledgeable they are with rabbits. If they aren't very experienced or you have concerns, it may be worth finding a more knowledgeable rabbit vet for a second opinion. Though I guess being a foster, the vet choice is decided by the organization you're fostering for. So maybe discuss a different vet with them if you feel a better rabbit vet is needed.

https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Choosing_a_rabbit_veterinarian

https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/New_York

First off - thank you also for your reply. This was kind of where I was going with the whole snuffles thing (worried about an actual dental problem) But I guess without xrays - it may not be discoverable. We spare no expense when it comes to getting our buns treated. We have invested over $2500 recently on one of our buns and many others that have run into the $1000's... The exploratory type of stuff is a little harder to justify when we have so many others we at least know what our $$ are treating and I am going at the recommendation of our vet. I may inquire into xrays.

The latest med we are starting on is "Chloramphenicol" 250MG. I actually have to wear gloves to protect myself from exposure. Too soon to know if it will have any impact, I know our vet wants me to give that a chance. I did do 3 months on Enrofloxacin (55MG 2x day) to no avail. I have included a video - turn up the sound. Note how anxious he is for a treat, and there is no discharge that I have noticed either.

Also, can you give me some examples of what "fresh forage" would be? I am in Upstate NY. Also the tip on the salt lick is helpful!

 

[JBun]

Thick bladed grasses (what grass hay is composed of as a dried grass). This will be a primary source of fresh forage. Lawn grass can be ok, but in limited amounts as it's very rich, hand cut (not from lawn mower clippings), and needs to be herbicide/pesticide and chemical free, from a clean area away from the road and possible contamination, free of animal urine/feces contamination, and needs to be gradually introduced into the diet because it is a richer grass.

https://learningstore.extension.wisc.edu/products/identifying-pasture-grasses-p176

https://efotg.sc.egov.usda.gov/references/public/VT/Forage_and_Pasture_Plant_ID_Presentation.pdf

The Harcourt-Brown link in my above post, has quite a bit of forage info, though if you aren't familiar with plant ID, it's safest to stick with plants that you can absolutely positively ID. Like dandelion, broad and narrow leaf plantain, raspberry/blackberry leaves, tree leaves like willow and apple. My rabbit goes nuts for willow leaves! So if you live in a rural or suburban area, there should be some options. The chemical and contamination free areas will apply to all foraged plants. Also avoid any plants in a known area with consistent wild animal traffic (particularly fox, skunk, and raccoon), as feces from wild animals can carry harmful parasites.

Another thing to keep in mind is if your rabbit isn't vaccinated for RHDV, even if there haven't been any recent cases in your state, there still may be a slight risk of forage plants being carriers. Just something to be aware of. If there are any recent cases (in the past year) in your state or area, definitely don't use forage, or if you have any concerns about it's safety.

https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Rabbit_hemorrhagic_disease

https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/articles/free-food-for-rabbits/foraging

A few more plant and food links.

https://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Food/Branch/Branch_en.htm

https://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Food/Food_main.htm

 

[Bunster.love]

Thick bladed grasses (what grass hay is composed of as a dried grass). This will be a primary source of fresh forage. Lawn grass can be ok, but in limited amounts as it's very rich, hand cut (not from lawn mower clippings), and needs to be herbicide/pesticide and chemical free, from a clean area away from the road and possible contamination, free of animal urine/feces contamination, and needs to be gradually introduced into the diet because it is a richer grass.

https://learningstore.extension.wisc.edu/products/identifying-pasture-grasses-p176

https://efotg.sc.egov.usda.gov/references/public/VT/Forage_and_Pasture_Plant_ID_Presentation.pdf

The Harcourt-Brown link in my above post, has quite a bit of forage info, though if you aren't familiar with plant ID, it's safest to stick with plants that you can absolutely positively ID. Like dandelion, broad and narrow leaf plantain, raspberry/blackberry leaves, tree leaves like willow and apple. My rabbit goes nuts for willow leaves! So if you live in a rural or suburban area, there should be some options. The chemical and contamination free areas will apply to all foraged plants. Also avoid any plants in a known area with consistent wild animal traffic (particularly fox, skunk, and raccoon), as feces from wild animals can carry harmful parasites.

Another thing to keep in mind is if your rabbit isn't vaccinated for RHDV, even if there haven't been any recent cases in your state, there still may be a slight risk of forage plants being carriers. Just something to be aware of. If there are any recent cases (in the past year) in your state or area, definitely don't use forage, or if you have any concerns about it's safety.

https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Rabbit_hemorrhagic_disease

https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/articles/free-food-for-rabbits/foraging

A few more plant and food links.

https://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_diseases/Food/Branch/Branch_en.htm

https://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Food/Food_main.htm

Thank you . That is helpful. It seems that "forage" is a widely used term so that helps. Just so frustrating bc he will eat hard bisquits and seems starving when I go to give him one or his greens. But has no interest in hay or pellets. (??!!!)

Any Opinion on the video?

 

[DDDAAA]

in regards to hay cookies, we mix hay dust/fines with pellets and rabbit safe herbs/weeds and that works very well for us. We use mint, rosemary, basil, dill, roses, thyme, wheat grass, oat grass and dandelion that we grow so we know there aren't any pesticides sprayed on them. there's no rhyme nor reason to how much nor how many herbs and weeds we put in, we just sort of grab whatever because they all eat the stuff on a daily basis anyway - but be very slow and careful when adding new food to your bun's diet, that can be quite dangerous. We grind the pellets in a coffee grinder until it's a powder, then we put the pellet powder into 3 gal pail and start slowly adding water until it makes the right consistency (if it's too dry we add more water, if it's too wet we add more pellet powder). Then we mix in the hay fine/dust, flowers and weeds. We place the little "bunny blobs" (1" balls) around the house in their favorite places, so they can find them whenever they like. We use a food safe bucket with a special lid and the stuff stays fresh for at least 3 days in room temperature, but they'd probably be good longer if sealed and in the refrigerator. Like I said, it works well for us, maybe it'll work for your bun, too.

 

[JBun]

Thank you . That is helpful. It seems that "forage" is a widely used term so that helps. Just so frustrating bc he will eat hard bisquits and seems starving when I go to give him one or his greens. But has no interest in hay or pellets. (??!!!)

Any Opinion on the video?

Yes, I think forage is just a broad term for rabbit safe plants not store bought or cultivated in a vegetable garden.

Are you referring to the snuffly sound he's making? It does sound like congestion from sticky infection in the nasal passage to me. Even though you aren't seeing discharge, it can just mean it's further up the nasal passage, that it's very thick so it's not running out the nose, and/or there isn't enough infection being produced yet that discharge out the nose would occur. But the wetness from the snuffly sounds he's making, does make it sound likely that there is sticky pus from infection in there to me.

I don't know if your vet tried to get a look at it or how a URI was determined for your bun. For my rabbits that have had a URI without visible discharge, my vet was able to spot the white discharge indicating an infection in the nasal passage, by sticking an otoscope up in there and verifying it visually that way.

One thing that you may find helpful, that was extremely helpful in thinning out and controlling the discharge initially for one of my rabbits with a URI, before the antibiotics took full effect, was using children's benadryl.

I had one rabbit that started having copious white sticky nasal discharge that was making breathing difficult for him, and the benadryl cleared it out that same day. I think it was given every 8-12 hours, from what I remember, until he didn't need it anymore. It really proved so helpful in helping him breath better. I think the 2mg/kg dose was used. And I did have to make sure to buy the one with no artificial sweeteners in it. There are some brands and flavors with artificial sweeteners. It was cherry flavored benedryl brand, with sucrose (regular sugar) only. No sorbitol, sucralose, or saccharine. So you may want to ask your vet about trying it, to see if it's helpful for your rabbit. Here's some dosing info regarding it's use.

https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Common_drug_dosages_for_rabbits

Meloxicam may be another med to try if you aren't already. If the change of appetite is really being caused by mouth or head pain while chewing, having pain relief may help alleviate that some and get him eating those other foods better.

I can't say why he'll eat the cookie and not the hay and pellets. Maybe he's like us humans when it comes to dessert, and it's worth enduring the pain to eat something especially yummy Or maybe the cookie isn't as hard as pellets and breaks up more easily while biting down, that it causes less pain to chew.

And just to be sure the selective appetite doesn't have another cause unrelated to his current illness, you may want to double check the hay and pellets to make sure they haven't gone bad with mold (sour/musty smell, white dust, black/white spots, dampness), and that's why he won't eat them. That would mean it's nothing to do with his current ailment causing further issues. But if you have other rabbits and they eat the hay and pellets fine, spoiled food is unlikely as the cause for his selective eating.

 

[Bunster.love]

in regards to hay cookies, we mix hay dust/fines with pellets and rabbit safe herbs/weeds and that works very well for us. We use mint, rosemary, basil, dill, roses, thyme, wheat grass, oat grass and dandelion that we grow so we know there aren't any pesticides sprayed on them. there's no rhyme nor reason to how much nor how many herbs and weeds we put in, we just sort of grab whatever because they all eat the stuff on a daily basis anyway - but be very slow and careful when adding new food to your bun's diet, that can be quite dangerous. We grind the pellets in a coffee grinder until it's a powder, then we put the pellet powder into 3 gal pail and start slowly adding water until it makes the right consistency (if it's too dry we add more water, if it's too wet we add more pellet powder). Then we mix in the hay fine/dust, flowers and weeds. We place the little "bunny blobs" (1" balls) around the house in their favorite places, so they can find them whenever they like. We use a food safe bucket with a special lid and the stuff stays fresh for at least 3 days in room temperature, but they'd probably be good longer if sealed and in the refrigerator. Like I said, it works well for us, maybe it'll work for your bun, too.

I will try that (so you don't bake them, just let them dry?) I have seen some recipes that have either applesauce or banana (obviously introducing sugar) ....but I AM trying to get him to eat...... and Thank you.

 

[DDDAAA]

no we don't bake them, we were thinking about it but we couldn't find detailed enough information on nutritional breakdowns of cooking the plants, and we were concerned it might alter the nutritional content enough to turn good food into essentially junk food for our buns. They usually eat them while they're still pretty moist, but the hay pieces stay crunchy. Our guys don't seem to like bananas or applesauce so we never tried those, but they sure do love different herbs (especially mint and rosemary) and old fashioned oats (oatmeal).

 

[Bunster.love]

no we don't bake them, we were thinking about it but we couldn't find detailed enough information on nutritional breakdowns of cooking the plants, and we were concerned it might alter the nutritional content enough to turn good food into essentially junk food for our buns. They usually eat them while they're still pretty moist, but the hay pieces stay crunchy. Our guys don't seem to like bananas or applesauce so we never tried those, but they sure do love different herbs (especially mint and rosemary) and old fashioned oats (oatmeal).

True - didn't think about how it may affect it.