Harper's in emergency surgery

[MyBoyHarper]

I did talk to the vet about pain meds. He said Metacam would slow his Gi tract and asprin is a blood thinner and bad for post-surgery.

I tried the slurry but he only got it all over himself. I am giving him nutri-cal but he really needs fiber right now... I'm getting so aggrivated because he can only eat (or attempt to eat) his pellets when the collar is off. He can only have the collar off when I am sitting next to his cage because he eats at the staples. But when I take the collar off, he won't eat the pellets. It's becoming a stressful and aggrivating situation!

 

[naturestee]

There's probably not much poop because he's not getting much in his system. Have you tried flavoring the pellet slurry so it tastes yummy? You can use a little canned pumpkin, unsweetened apple juice, banana, etc.

Also, are you syringing fluids into him? If he's not drinking much with the collar on yet, he'll need it. And they can help keep the stuff in his intestines moving smoothly.

Also you could ask the vet if gut motility drugs would be a good idea. I have no idea what their effect would be after a surgery, but some work on the intestines while others work on the stomach and upper part of the small intestines. Maybe there's one that would help without hurting his stomach.

 

[MyBoyHarper]

Actually he's drinking a lot of water now...more so than BEFORE the surgery, which I am very happy about. In fact, he's drinking from his bottle right this moment.

He's been nibbling some hay, but no pellets. I tried the slurry, but can't get any to come through the syringe. I even mixed it with nutri-cal, but it keeps getting stuck... any suggestions on that?

 

[Haley]

arent you supposed to put the nutrical on the top of the paw so they lick it off? or am I thinking of something else..?

 

[MyBoyHarper]

With Harper I just give it to him in a syringe. He likes the taste so he's good about eating it. As far as fiber goes,I am going out first thing in the morning to get him some canned pumpkin.

 

[Haley]

how's harper doing today?

 

[MyBoyHarper]

Eating a few pellets last night with his collar on, and a tiny bit of hay. Still drinking a good bit of water, thank goodness. No poops whatsoever, and he spit the canned pumpkin out his mouth. I called the vet about the poops and lack of eating, and I keep getting, "It's normal". I'm starting to get aggrivated but I have no money to take him elsewhere. This vet lets me charge it to a charge account at the clinic, and my credit card is maxed out (over the limit now, actually). I even sold two of my textbooks for classes to get money for his surgery, so I am flat broke. I just keep watching him and hoping the vet is correct.

 

[Haley]

hmm..the poops thing really worries me. Did he say how long to wait before panicking? Did you try heating the pumpkin up just a little? Or maybe mixing the pellets with banana or something?

About payment, you should really think about getting VPI pet insurance.I know you and I were talking about it before in another thread a while back. I ended up getting it for Max and Basil. It has been a lifesaver.I know it wont help you now, but for future problems, its rally worth it (and only 12 bucksa month per rabbit). PM me if you want some more info.

I really hope Harper can get that gut moving. Poor little dear.

 

[JimD]

Hi MBH,

How's harper feel about hand feeding. That's how I got Binkie to finally start eating some pellets.

My buns love rolled oats ....maybe he'd be interested. Try mixing them in with some pellets. They're good fiber (but lack any good nutrition)....won't make him fat and it might be enough to get his innards gettin' along.

I also mixed in little bits of dried papaya with the pellets. I don't think it helps with anything other than making the bun have a "happy mouth".

Or maybe hand feeding some fresh veggies.....parsley has a way of prompting my buns to eat.

He's probably still sore, but maybe some mild activity and lite massage would help.

Prayers and good thoughts being sent.

jim

 

[MyBoyHarper]

I still have all the brochures from VPI and will be getting it very soon for any future (hope not!) problems. As far as the poops go, I have called the vet every morning and he keeps saying it's normal and to be expected. If he hasn't pooped by Monday, I am not calling anymore. I am bringing him to the clinic and demanding that he be re-examined. He is acting fine and active however, which I am thankful for.

I didn't heat up the pumpkin (might've been the problem...) but I'll heat some up and try again in a minute.

Oh god this entire ordeal has been so stressful.I have tests all next week and I need to find someone to borrow a book from now that I sold mine. And I haven't been to any classes either, so I am definitely behind on notes, homework... everything! I'm so aggrivated but I'm trying not to be aggrivated with him because I know it's not his fault. It's just an all around stressful situation.

 

[MyBoyHarper]

Hey Jim, I tried hand feeding him some banana and pellets, and he bit me each time I tried. He's not much for the hand-feeding thing. He hates the syringe too and mainly just nibbles on a tiny (and I do mean tiny) bit of hay. He's slurping down the water though, so at least he's well hydrated.

I put him outside to run in the yard twice yesterday. He ran a little but mainly wanted to just sit in the shade. So after a while I took him inside, but I have a feeling it's due to him still being a bit sore.

 

[Pipp]

MyBoyHarper wrote:

I put him outside to run in the yard twice yesterday. He ran a little but mainly wanted to just sit in the shade. So after a while I took him inside, but I have a feeling it's due to him still being a bit sore.

Didn't the vet tell you to keep him confined? Bunnies need to be kept very still after surgery, for at least a week. They shouldn't really even be hopping much less running.

Stomach surgery is different from normal stasis, I wouldn't think they'd prescribe exercise or massage. Stasis after that kind of surgery is common.

Good thing he's drinking. I'd try and spice up a slurry mix withwhatever it takes to get him to eat it -- banana, oats,anything.

You may have toforce feed him, being extremely careful about holding him around histummy, you'll have to use a towel in a bunny burrito.

If he's not eating because of the pain, which is likely, pain meds maybeabsolutely essential.If he's drinking, askthe vet to give himBanamine (if he's not on any other drugs, it's not compatible with many) or Ketoprofen. (If the Banamine doesn't work right away, try something else).

Additional: I bought a honkin' big feeding syringe for Pipp. Depending on the size of your existing syringe, you may want to try cutting the end off. Also, I think it's an ingredient in Metamusil? that makes the consistency of the slurry a lot easier to administer, I'll have to look that one up. Stay tooned!

I hope he's okay.

sas ray:

 

[MyBoyHarper]

Thevet said that after 3-4 days he could go ahead and get a little exercise. He didn't run around much but did enjoy the fresh air. He seemed more active after we came in from being outside.

I'll mention to the vet Monday when he opens back up about pain meds. As far as the slurry goes, I've tried all sorts of things, including all kinds of different veggies, and he refuses it. I did spot him eating a few pellets earlier with his collar on, so that's a good sign.

I have heard that stasis is common after this type of surgery, which just worries me even more... if it's not one it's the other!

 

[JimD]

Pipp wrote:

MyBoyHarper wrote:

I put him outside to run in the yard twice yesterday. He ran a little but mainly wanted to just sit in the shade. So after a while I took him inside, but I have a feeling it's due to him still being a bit sore.

Didn't the vet tell you to keep him confined? Bunnies need to be kept very still after surgery, for at least a week. They shouldn't really even be hopping much less running.

sas ray:

My bad.

I meant morethat, since his surgery was last Tuesday, he might be able to handle some "easy-does-it" moving around...not necessarily running around outside though.
I should have been a little clearer about the massage, too. Not on or around the surgery site, but more of a thearaputic massage...face,ears, between the shoulders, long gentle strokes from nose to tail,etc. It might relax him or at least give him a nice sense of security.

 

[Pipp]

Hey, as long as he's drinking alot, he seriously hasthe most important part down!

The fluids and the Nutri-Cal should keep him going. And great that he's eating even a few pellets.

I found the references re: the slurry mix going through the syringe:I'd been talking to a vet school prof up here who recommended mixing it with psyllium, the drug found in Metamucil becaise it not only provides fiber, it makes the consistency syringeable.

There was a bit of controversy about this, though (and about administering lots of fiber to stasis buns at all), and indeed, our own Pam Nock once pointedout thatpsyllium/metamucil shouldn't be used in stasis buns because it pulls fluids from othertissues.When the subjectcame up on Etherbun, this was the exchange: (I'll reproduce the post here, seeing as Susan always gives me permission when Iask, and Pam is aMod here, so she won't mind!)

Pam Nock:

> One site specifically mentioned that metamucil should not be used in
> rabbits with GI stasis because of the amount of fluids it pulls from
> other tissues into the gut.

Susan:

There are different types of fiber, which complicates the issue of
whether fiber "pulls" fluids. Oxbow's Critical Care, which so many
people use with stasis rabbits, contains 21-15% fiber. Oxbow
suggests that you rehydrate CC with 1.5 parts water per part of dry
powder.

One of my favorite rabbit vets had his stasis clients use of a
pellet slurry which includes a certain amount of psyllium among its
ingredients (see www;carrotcafe.com Powdered Pellets). However,
when using psyllium, it is *crucial* to hydrate it thoroughly
*before* feeding it. If you don't do so, it might well draw fluids
from the rabbit's GIT.

I did an experiment and found that psyllium husk will absorb 14
times its volume in water *over time* (about an hour, if I remember
correctly but maybe more time) but then it is saturated and will not
absorb any more. So one would want to be sure to use *lots* of water
with it to avoid the possibility of "pulling fluids". Frances
Harcourt-Brown points to methylcellulose and psyllium as well as
"ground up lignified material" as contributing to *cecal impaction*
(p. 277). She also advises providing *indigestible* fiber to
rabbits with GI hypomotility and/or hairball (p. 263) as well as
giving oral fluids. FHB defines indigestible fiber as particles
larger than 0.3- 0.5mm and is not passed into the cecum. It is
mostly composed of lignin and cellulose. Lignin is present in large
quantities in wood, hulls, and straw. (p. 27)


So again, Harper's less likely to be affected because he's drinking. Your boy knows what's good for him!

sas

 

[Pipp]

JimD wrote:

My bad.

I meant morethat, since his surgery was last Tuesday, he might be able to handle some "easy-does-it" moving around...not necessarily running around outside though.
I should have been a little clearer about the massage, too. Not on or around the surgery site, but more of a thearaputic massage...face,ears, between the shoulders, long gentle strokes from nose to tail,etc. It might relax him or at least give him a nice sense of security.

Yup, I guess the vet agrees.

MyBoyHarper wrote:

Thevet said that after 3-4 days he could go ahead and get a little exercise. He didn't run around much but did enjoy the fresh air. He seemed more active after we came in from being outside.

Pipp was supposed to stayquiet for a week, after her spay,and I think thesecond day she jumped off the bed. Darn near gave me a heart attack! I guess she didn't hear what the vet said. It was impossible to slow her down, I gave up, and no ill effects.

With poor little Harpersliced open stem to stern, one would think he'd need even less action, butit is a balance.Ifmild exercise perks him up,great! And having to have the collar on, heneeds all the distractions he can get, so the petting/massage sessions wouldprobably be verywelcome.

Give him an extra pat for me!

sas

 

[MyBoyHarper]

Well, that makes me feel a bit better, and I am definitely glad he is drinking as much as he has been drinking. I did warm him up some more of the canned pumpkin and this time he ate a little bit. I filled a 10cc syringe and he probably downed about 5cc. Better than nothing!

 

[Haley]

Thats great! I always heat the pumpkin up just a tad, and sometimes add a little honey to entice the buns

Get well soon Harper

 

[JimD]

Pipp wrote:

Hey,as long as he's drinking alot, he seriously hasthe most important part down!





There was a bit of controversy about this, though (and about administering lots of fiber to stasis buns at all), and indeed, our own Pam Nock once pointedoutt hatpsyllium/metamucil shouldn't be used in stasis buns because it pulls fluids from othertissues.When the subjectcame up on Etherbun, this was the exchange: (I'll reproduce the post here, seeing as Susan always gives me permission when Iask, and Pam is aMod here, so she won't mind!)

Pam Nock:

> One site specifically mentioned that metamucil should not be used in
> rabbits with GI stasis because of the amount of fluids it pulls from
> other tissues into the gut.


sas

That makes really good sense.

I wonder if the rolled oats would also pull fluid. :?

 

[Pipp]

JimD wrote:

That makes really good sense.
I wonder if the rolled oats would also pull fluid. :?

Hmmm, great question. That may explain something that's puzzled me about how rolled oats aregood for diarrhea. (And apparently so is banana, but one would think for different reasons).

Now that I'm looking around, I'm seeing a number of warnings about not using Metamucil with blockage or total cecal impaction, but recommendations (when adequately hydrated) using it for GI stasis with no blockage.

Good reasons for always seeing a vet for a proper diagnosis -- although I'll still go for home treatment the first day or two, the first step being hydration, anyway.

I've always recommended soaking the Critical Care or homemade slurry for at least 10 minutes (which is something my vet never did tell me,I'm not sure if it's in the instructions or not, either), I think I'll increase that time frame when the subject comes up again.Soak soak soak!

sas