Worried for my bunny boy (RIP)

[tonyshuman]

You are doing a really great job for Jacub. You've been feeding him and getting him all these things he needs, which has been a lot of work.

If the vet says the bacteria are susceptible to Baytril, it may just work. It's just not as aggressive an antibiotic as we like to see used for ear infections. I really would like to hear Randy's opinion on this, since the vet did the right thing and did the culture and sensitivity test, but has come up with an antibiotic that we don't like very much around here. The reason we don't like it is because most vets won't do a culture and sensitivity, they'll just prescribe Baytril and hope that works, which it doesn't, usually. Also, as a scientist, if they cultured the bacteria and were able to kill it with Baytril, it would make sense that Baytril would work for Jacub too.

Where did you learn about the vet? Is he/she in our vet listings, or those of the HRS?

Could you ask to give it sub-Q instead of oral? That increases the concentration that gets to the infection, and gets it there more quickly than oral adminstration.

I really want to stress that you've gone through a lot in taking care of him, and you've worked your butt off to get him back eating. There will be up and down days, and it's possible that the Baytril may work. Just because we've seen Pasturella that's resistant to it in the past doesn't mean Jacub has that resistant bacteria. You're really doing a good job for him.

edit: and what Dawn said is good too. It's possible he doesn't know that penicillin can be used in rabbits, since it absolutely can't be used orally in rabbits. Sub-q is good though.

 

[MagnoliaDee]

aurora369 wrote:

I would print off some articles about how to effectively treat an ear infection with penicillin injections. Bring the article to the vet and request to try that treatment protocol. Request to be taught how to administer sub-q injections at home (not too hard once your taught how) and to be provided with enough drugs to do a full treatment.

Do you feel that your vet is open to different options? Some vets react well to ideas from owners who have done research, and others not so much. Hopefully yours will be open to suggestions.

--Dawn

I can definitely print off some articles. I don't get the feeling that she's open to other ideas, as she's shot down every one I've told her about thus far. Do you know of any good articles that you can point me to? I've been trying to look for stuff on the internet about what we're going thru, but having a hard time.

 

[MagnoliaDee]

tonyshuman wrote:

I'm going to speak with her about injectibles... and she what she says. I hope also that Randy posts his thoughts on the latest as well... I tried sending him a PM but he has that disabled. By Sub-Q do you mean injectibles?

The vet we go to is just "known" as the best in town. I don't believe there are any really rabbit saavy vets in town tho... I took my girl buns to London for their spay as I wan't comfortable getting it done locally. London would be the next closest possibility to look for a rabbit saavy vet, but that is 2+ hours away. Other than that would be Michigan.

You are doing a really great job for Jacub. You've been feeding him and getting him all these things he needs, which has been a lot of work.

If the vet says the bacteria are susceptible to Baytril, it may just work. It's just not as aggressive an antibiotic as we like to see used for ear infections. I really would like to hear Randy's opinion on this, since the vet did the right thing and did the culture and sensitivity test, but has come up with an antibiotic that we don't like very much around here. The reason we don't like it is because most vets won't do a culture and sensitivity, they'll just prescribe Baytril and hope that works, which it doesn't, usually. Also, as a scientist, if they cultured the bacteria and were able to kill it with Baytril, it would make sense that Baytril would work for Jacub too.

Where did you learn about the vet? Is he/she in our vet listings, or those of the HRS?

Could you ask to give it sub-Q instead of oral? That increases the concentration that gets to the infection, and gets it there more quickly than oral adminstration.

I really want to stress that you've gone through a lot in taking care of him, and you've worked your butt off to get him back eating. There will be up and down days, and it's possible that the Baytril may work. Just because we've seen Pasturella that's resistant to it in the past doesn't mean Jacub has that resistant bacteria. You're really doing a good job for him.

edit: and what Dawn said is good too. It's possible he doesn't know that penicillin can be used in rabbits, since it absolutely can't be used orally in rabbits. Sub-q is good though.

 

[tonyshuman]

Here are our rabbit-savvy vet listings in Ontario.
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=12548&forum_id=9

If your vet is open-minded, bringing in articles may help.

Here are a few good ones, from some rabbit experts:
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/tilt.html
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-8/head-tilt.html
http://www.rabbitnetwork.org/articles/jilly.shtml
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=485&S=5&SourceID=43

To be totally honest, re-reading these articles, enrofloxacin (Baytril) comes up pretty frequently as an acceptable treatment. It may just work. Don't give up hope: mention that you're worried that Baytril isn't as strong an antibiotic as is typically used in cases of head tilt, but if he won't go for another stronger antibiotic, just give the Baytril and look for improvement. If he doesn't improve some in a week, it may be time to change meds.

[[big hugs]]

 

[MagnoliaDee]

Thanks Claire for all the help! I just created a pen for Jacub so I can monitor how many poops he's having. And see how much hay he is eating. I was having a very tough time with his feeding, and a dear friend of mine reminded me of the bunny burrito. Tried that and tho he was pretty pissed off by the end I did manage to get the full 8 cc's into him! Feeling much better thanks to that!

 

[Flashy]

You are definitely doing a great job for him, for sure, so please don't ever feel you're doing anything wrong. You are fighting tooth and nail alongside him.

Head tilt can be a difficult one to treat, for a variety of reasons (like of knowledge of anti-bios, lack of knowledge of correct treatment paths, etc). Maybe you could agree with your vet to try Baytril for X amount of time and if that doesn't work, to switch to something else stronger (and that would be an injectable).

You're doing great. Keep us updated

 

[MagnoliaDee]

Thanks Tracy... I appreciate it! It pretty easy to get disheartened when seeing him stuggling so. But I'm happy that he took some pellet this morning, and veggies... even if he wouldn't accept the critical care for anything. I put him in a pen of his own last night so that I could monitor his poops... he made 70+ overnight... that's got to be a good sign!

I'm wondering how to know when to stop the critical care... he's eating some pellet, some hay, veggies, pumpkin, water, etc. on his own... and he's really fighting me on the critical care. I was able to get two meals into him yesterday. Any thoughts?

Here is Jacub as of last night in his new pen...

 

[MagnoliaDee]

o'kay I just re-read what Clair wrote above about when to stop forced feedings... sounds like we can consider stopping. I will still try to see if he'll take it... he may take 1 or 2 a day... we'll have to see. But he is pooping... and good I think... so I think we're thru the worst of it... I hope and pray!

I was soo worried when he wouldn't take the food that he'd starve to death... or go backwards on the stasis. Putting him in a pen of his own has really helped me to understand how he's coming along. I was able to know exactly how many poops he had overnight... I counted every one lol. And I was able to know how much water he took also.

Do I need to continue with the tummy massages? He's not cool with them anymore either.

Thanks again!

 

[Flashy]

I do agree. If that were my bun, if they were eating something by themself, then I would stop the force feeding. Maybe just try offering the critical care as well as a lovely bunny buffet all the time, and keeping it all as fresh as possible.

If he is eating and pooing and drinking and weeing and generally imprving then I would say you can leave the tummy massages unless he goes backwards. You could give him a heat source to lie on which can help the tummy if it feels rough for him.

He's an asbolute cutie and he's so lucky to have such a wonderful bunny mummy

 

[MagnoliaDee]

I'm back from the vet now, and it was a completely different experience than I was expecting. Praying really does help.

Firstly, I got an appointment with my vet, and I wasn't charged for spending time with her. Second, as soon as we were in the room, and she was looking at Jacub, she said that after talking with me on the phone she did some more research and decided that she'd like to try a different approach with Jacub... a more agressive one... Pen G. We're going to do the oral Baytril as well... which I pick up tomorrow. She's giving him more Metacam for pain management. And she decided that she didn't want to do the ear cleaning with him... just a light one with a q-tip. But it was seeming to stress him out a bit so she decided not to proceed. I asked about getting something for neasea... like Baytril, and she had no problem with that. I also mentioned being shown how to give Sub Q fluids. And again, she was all go for that as well... brought the stuff in, showed me how to do it, took her time and allowed me to try inserting the needle and feeling how hard to push the syringe, etc. I was shaking pretty badly, so she switched it to a butterfly needle... which is good, I don't want to be shaking a needle into him while I'm doing it. I'll get hubby to help me do his first one tonight. He gets 50 ml every day for 5 days. Oh, and he got more metacam for pain management too... another 10 days.

Beyond that I asked her if she's had many vestibular cases, and she said she did in Toronto, and 2 in Windsor. I asked her if Jacub was one of the pretty bad cases, and she said his was one of the worst she's personally treated. I asked about prognosis, and what if he doesn't get better, and we talked about euthanization (of course, we're doing our very best first). I hope that doesn't sound harsh, but I've never had to do it, and want to prepare myself for the possibility.

I also asked for a copy of the culture, again no problem. He has Heavy growth of Pastuerella Species and Moderate growth of Staphyloccoccus hominis subsp. hominis. According to the report they are both suseptable (or however you say it) to Pen G.

All in all it was a very good visit I think. I think we're doing the right treatment... and I hope that Jacub does well with it all.

Once I got home, I put Jacub in his pen to give him a respite from all the stress of the visit (multiple pokes, and rolling pretty badly, not to mention the car ride itself)... went back down a bit later to check on him and he was munching on hay. He's such a VERY good boy.

Please keep your fingers crossed that I do o'kay with all of this... it's pretty scary, and as always, keep sweet Jacub in your prayers, and hope that we see a positive result from all of this!!

 

[Flashy]

Oh that DOES sound more positive. So what is he on/going to be on?

Rabbits can live quite happily with head tilt, once the initial infection is treated and better. Some are left with a residual tilt of varying degrees and they can still be happy, still have a friend, still have a good quality of life. It really depends on the rabbit. My girl has been left with a residual tilt that has improved greatly.

You can also do things like physio with him, and massages when you know that his infection is starting to go, which can help his neck and head and the strength of the muscles too.

 

[MagnoliaDee]

Tracy... I didn't know you've dealt with tilt as well. I'm sorry for that... but very encouraged to hear that she is doing well after treatment. I actually have seen a few bunnies with head tilt... we have a good group of bunny friends from another forum and I got to meet a few folks who were/are involved in rescue, and they all had at least one tilt bunny. Tho it looks sad, I do know that as long as we get this under control then we have a shot at a happy life. My vet did mention the massage and the possibility of acupuncture... which we will look into once we're in the healing process. I soo want the best for him. If all of you met him, you'd really love him and I'm not just saying that b/c I'm his mom. =)

 

[tonyshuman]

This really sounds a lot better!! I'm excited about the Pen G, and that you can now give fluids! Now, onward to treatment!

 

[MagnoliaDee]

I agreee... I just went down and little sweetheart was just laying there looking disheartened... so I ran a few pieces of hay past his nose, and he took them and ate them! I have already given him his first Pen G shot... and later tonight he'll get the rest of his Sub Q fluids.

Now onwards to healing!!

 

[pumpkinandwhiskersmom]

Just saw this post....so sorry that you've been through it with your little guy. He is ADORABLE, and you've done a terrific job nursing him back to health. I totally agree that prayers are amazing...add ours to all the others that are being lifted up for your and Jacub. Also, welcome to the Forum....it is one of the most wonderful places in cyberearth!

 

[MagnoliaDee]

Thank you a bunch for the prayers and welcome!

 

[MagnoliaDee]

The fruits of my labour... :yes:

 

[tonyshuman]

Hehe! So glad to see that!

 

[MagnoliaDee]

Thanks Clair lol!!

We gave Jacub his Sub Q fluids tonight and I was very happy with how that went esp. given how much it sucked at the vets, and how nervous I was! The butterfly needle was MUCH nicer... and I don't think he even felt it going in. He squirmed a bit as I did the injection... but mainly he was just sooo good about it. Tonight he's flopping less I think, and having better control. I hope we see some improvement on his tilt before too long.

He gets the Penn G every 48 hours for a week, then twice a week for two weeks, then once a week for two weeks... this will cover about a 5 week span. ::: fingers crossed :::

 

[ani-lover]

ok, i have personally dealt with this for about two years with one of my rabbits, seems like your vet is pretty good and cares about what they're doing. i don't have time to read all of the posts in this thread right now but i will. i haven't had the GI stasis problem but i had the vestibular disease problem with mine and can also help. my rabbit was in the rolling stage and had the head tilt. for right now i just have a few questions, have you gotten a blood test at all and are you still using baytril?