what just happened??

[Imbrium]

I heard a scuffle in the living room that went on for a little bit. my first thought was "bunny 500" (feet slipping on tarp), but I couldn't imagine how they could possibly be doing a bunny 500 in their tiny 2x3x1 grid "recovery" cage... so I went out to look. when I got out there, they seemed fine and were just standing there like "hi, mom" but I realized my foot was in something wet. I scolded that they'd better not have found a way to pee that far out the side of the cage and flipped the overhead light on to confirm I had just stepped in water and figure out how it got there.

well, it *was* water... and it was all over the place, including all over the bunnies. they had very obviously crashed into the waterer and sloshed a good bit of water out of it, which I'm about to have to finish cleaning up (such a mess!). a mini-500 could explain that... but it can't explain the other mess I found. there are tufts of hair all over the place! I counted at least 8 or 9 of them, and as of a couple hours ago, I had no molting bunnies... so either someone started explosively molting with suspicious timing, or they got into an actual, hair pulling fight .

they both got spayed tuesday and have never fought before that, so I was under the impression their hormones never kicked in (they're 5 mos). I asked the vet to make sure they couldn't become hormonal shortly after the spay (in that window it normally takes for the hormones to dissipate) if they weren't hormonal beforehand and explained that they'd always been together but never fought - he told me it would be smooth sailing from here on out.

is it possible that the hormones WERE there before (and would therefore still be there now) but that they never provoked an actual fight because the bunns had SO much space to get away from each other and now they're cramped in a tiny cage?

I'm not sure what to do... should I separate them? they've been without a divider in the temp cage for over 24h and this is the first incident (and they've been silent since). I'll definitely sleep in the bunny room again tonight - excessive foot-on-tarp noise should wake me up because it registers as "bunny in distress" noise (it woke me up from another room when Nala got her head stuck in a grid as a baby).

 

[whitelop]

Maybe it is a space thing. They're used to SO much space normally, so maybe being this close together and not being able to separate like usual is bothersome.
Or, because they did just get spayed, maybe they don't feel great. One could have gotten snippy with the other and then it escalated.

I hope they're alright and there aren't any boo boo under where the tufts of fur are missing. I hope their little stitches are intact too!
Sorry I wasn't of much help, I just hope they're alright and they'll continue to get along!

 

[katherine at sacred stories]

:?

Hmmmm. That IS a mystery. I agree with what Morgan said--maybe it's a space thing combined with not feeling well. I've also read that sometimes bonds are affected when one goes to the vet and comes back smelling differently. Could it be that, although they were both at the vet, they each picked up different smells somehow?

Hope they're ok and that all goes smoothly from now on

 

[agnesthelion]

Wow. I agree, mystery here.

I can't think of anything to add here except to ditto Katherine and Morgan. Small space, feeling crappy, new vet smells.......I would say not to seperate them just yet but definetly keep an eye on them.

Was it a full moon last night??? Archie out of the blue humped Agnes like crazy last night! I didn't have a fight but it was odd to see because he hasn't even attempted a hump in so long?

Crazy buns last night!!!!

 

[LakeCondo]

Unless you're there 24/7 it probably would be safest to separate them until they both are healed, at least when you're not there.

 

[Nancy McClelland]

I've always been amazed at how much mischief ours get into.

 

[Imbrium]

ugh, freaking bunnies.

last night, when I went to clean up, I also found that it was a combination of water and - in some spots - pee on the floor... and whoever peed also managed to get some of it IN the water bowl, so I had to clean out their waterer for a second time that night. I got everything cleaned up and then got ready for bed and as I came back, I saw them start up again. nala walked towards gaz... took a couple steps towards her and then gaz just took off running and did a couple laps around the temp cage, spashing water everywhere AGAIN.

I looked them over; couldn't really tell by looking at the fur tufts who they came from, but looking at the bunnies this morning once they'd dried off, it seemed to be from nala's lighter/longer areas (skirt/mane/cheek) which matched up with the "gaz gone crazy" theory (because I seriously didn't understand what prompted her to run the time I was watching).

they were fine overnight while I was in the pen, but when I went to the kitchen in the morning, I heard another scuffle while I was in there. when I came back, I saw them try to get into it again - nala kind of lunged at gaz and gaz freaked out. I wanted to go back to sleep (had only gotten about 5 1/2 hours at that point), so I stuck nala in the first floor of their condo with a litter box, food bowl, water bottle and some hay. they're sharing a wall but can't actually get at each other... and ofc now they're acting like they want to be back together, which isn't going to happen.

I *really* hope that it's just frustration over going from 120+ square feet of space to only 6 and they'll be fine in a week when they're unrestricted!

to top off my own frustrations, my bag of alfalfa ran out yesterday, so last night I opened a box of six mini-bales that I'd ordered from petco and found that ALL six were the "sticks and fluff" cut that they won't eat anything but the leaves from. I ended up giving them grass hays instead and hoping they'd still eat plenty of it (thankfully, they did - normally they *really* prefer alfalfa) so that I wouldn't have to open any alfalfa bags. I'm gonna go to petco in just a bit and see if I can exchange them for a better cut.

oh, and someone put a tiny hole in my air mattress, causing a slow leak >.> I have no idea how to find it to patch it up, either, since it's not like I can submerge the thing in water to find the leak

I haven't given 'em metacam today, I figure if they feel good enough for high-speed chases around the cage, they don't need it. it's probably better if they don't feel up to running anyway. if they look to be in pain later, I can always give them some then.

 

[Mariah]

Hmmm, well I've been going through the whole bonding process with my two. Kiwi was spayed over a year ago. Papaya was neutered about 7 weeks ago. Before he was neutered they would fight so I had to keep them seperated. 6 weeks after the neuter and 5 months since I've been tying to bond, they bonded

Bunnies have their hormones until about 3-8 weeks after the neuter or spay, so if it were me, I would keep them seperated for a couple of weeks but let them out to play only when you can sit and watch them.

Mine too were ripping each others fur out and when I would catch them fighting they would run from me and keep attacking each other! Rotten bunnies!

Another reason to keep them apart right now is to make sure they heal properly...

 

[Blue eyes]

LakeCondo wrote:

Unless you're there 24/7 it probably would be safest to separate them until they both are healed, at least when you're not there.

Agreed.

 

[Imbrium]

Mariah wrote:

Bunnies have their hormones until about 3-8 weeks after the neuter or spay, so if it were me, I would keep them seperated for a couple of weeks but let them out to play only when you can sit and watch them.

Mine too were ripping each others fur out and when I would catch them fighting they would run from me and keep attacking each other! Rotten bunnies!

Another reason to keep them apart right now is to make sure they heal properly...

thing is, they *shouldn't* still have their hormones because - as far as I can tell - they NEVER had them to begin with. because they had never acted hormonal or fought pre-spay, which my vet said meant "smooth sailing" after the spays and because I read that they heal better/faster if they have a bonded friend to snuggle with after a surgery, I put them back together as soon as I was sure they were both eating and pooping properly. (when they were separated, they had a 2x3x1 NIC cage with a 2-panel divider down the middle so they could still snuggle through it). I don't know what's up with them.

the bigger ordeal right now is hay. I went to petco to hopefully exchange the stupid "sticks and fluff" cut hay for good alfalfa. they had NO alfalfa at ALL. so I returned my six mini-bales for a refund and figured I'd find hay elsewhere. I checked petsmart and THREE walmarts and all I could find at any of them was the stupid "sticks and fluff" alfalfa cuts :banghead. the third walmart didn't even carry alfalfa at all!

three hours later (after traversing 1/4 of a huge city looking for decent hay), I'm at home feeding them the oxbow alfalfa hay that came in the hay variety pack that I got the oat hay, orchard grass, botanical hay and meadow hay from (it also came with one timothy and one alfalfa). unfortunately, that alfalfa is "sticks and fluff" MINUS the fluff, making it even worse. darn hay companies!! I also ended up with a pretty bad headache because I was so worried about getting food for my bunnies that I forgot to eat breakfast (in my defense, I didn't think I'd be gone longer than 45 mins).

so it looks like I'll be staying up late tomorrow morning to call around to feed stores to try to track down some softer alfalfa for my babies.

to top it off, when I was going out to the boonies to the third walmart, I failed to pay any attention to traffic on the opposite side of loop 1604. had I done so, I would've noticed the wretched construction going on and would've taken the back way home... but nope. so I got stuck in bumper to bumper traffic as they forced it down to one lane and then proceeded to force everyone off the highway. two miles or so of riding the clutch, staring at flashing lights and brake lights while starving and headachey an hour after my ADD meds have worn off was stressful as hell. that's not enough to give me a panic attack since I'm good at controlling them now, but it certainly had me on the verge of one . I'm SO glad to be home!

the only upside is that on the way to the third walmart, I realized I was almost out of gas and stopped to fill up... and it was $3.53/gallon for 93 octane! that's like 30c cheaper than I pay in my neighborhood, so I saved about 4 bucks on a full tank.

 

[ldoerr]

If I were you I would stop worrying about trying to find more alfalfa and start to look for a good bale of Timothy. Your girls are old enough to where they do not need alfalfa.

I hope that they rebond soon. I know how the scuffles can be, I delt with it but worse with my girls before I got them spayed. They are now the best of friends and never leave eachothers sides. I am sure that your girls will be back to that in no time at all.

 

[Imbrium]

I've always heard 6-7 months for weaning them over to grass hays. besides, I've already taken away their beloved condo, inflicted major surgery on them, crammed them into tiny cages and somehow upset their super-tight bond - I think forcing them to give up their beloved alfalfa and stick to grass hays all in the same week is more stress than they need. also, I need enough alfalfa to make a gradual transition and I already have quite a bit of timothy and other grass hays sitting around. I'm not gonna buy a huge bale of alfalfa or anything, just enough to last them the next couple months until I wean them off of it.

 

[ldoerr]

Ok did not understand the situation fully I know that you will do the best for those cute balls of fluff

 

[Imbrium]

yeah, they're only JUST 5 mos old... plus, rough week for all of us, heh, and it looks like they'll be caged separately for another week until they're off restrictions from the spay

if our guesses are right that it's the cramped quarters causing the problem, hopefully a little time apart and a quickie re-bonding will be all it takes to get things back to normal.

 

[JBun]

Sounds like they're cage crazy and just sick of being cooped up. Poor babies You may want to just put their cages right next to each other, maybe even close enough so they could groom each other through the bars. That way they can be near each other if they want. I bet you can't wait til their confinement is up

You may still want to call around to feed stores. You may want to consider just getting a whole bale. A 50 lb bale may cost you $10-15 which is way cheaper then the little bags. They may even sell you a partial bale if you ask. Just check the quality of it before you buy it cause, as I'm sure you've learned, hay quality can vary quite a bit.

 

[JBun]

Oops, double post.

 

[HolyHandGrenade]

93 octane? Clutch? What do you drive? *ears perked up because I'm in the same situation looking for good prices on premium gas because my car requires it*

Good luck with the hay. I haven't given my fluffball any alfalfa, but perhaps I should grab some. She's still got 2 months left where she can have it, but I keep forgetting and buying just Timothy.

 

[Imbrium]

I drive a 2005 RX-8... manual transmission because I can't drive automatics. well, I can if I HAVE to, but it's as awkward as someone who's very unaccustomed to stick driving one of those. it freaks me out every time the car shifts and I had nothing to do with it, lol. kinda like that feeling you get in your legs if you're up REALLY, really high and look down over the side. it just feels like something is WRONG. I've known I wanted to drive stick ever since I was like 5 years old (my dad's truck was a standard and I always thought that shifting gears looked like the most fun part of driving, hehe).

anyway, now I'm having second thoughts again about the fighting. I used a playpen to section off just enough space for them to go out and travel between their two cages and then let them be together while I ate dinner in there and worked my butt off to keep them out of my chicken fajita nachos (not one ingredient in there they can eat, but they sure thought differently!).

after that, I had them in Nala's cage because I had to finish cleaning Gaz's out from the second water-splashing incident last night + a day or two of stray poops + scattered hay + her peeing on the floor tonight and that's SO much easier to do with no bunnies inside because then I can just open it up.

I heard yet another scuffle while I was emptying/refilling Gaz's waterer in the bathroom and came out and watched them... saw it start and end multiple times total tonight and every single time, there was no physical contact at all - just a chase where Gaz (the chasee) was the one to start it. it looked like a small-scale version of how bunny 500s would go pre-spaying.

the only thing that made me think there was an actual fight last night was the tufts of hair all over the cage because it would be an awfully big coincidence for someone to start molting right before the chase scenes started up... but now I wonder if that isn't what happened (they ARE due to start shedding their juvenile coats).

I groomed them both; pulled a couple tufts of fur from Gaz, then pulled a LOT from Nala - I was furminating her for a good 5-10 minutes and pulled off at LEAST as much fur as what I found in the cage last night.

so I'm crossing my fingers it's just playing and no re-bonding will be necessary. I checked their incisions and they still look really good, so no harm done from the chase scenes

I'm still going to be keeping them separated (with one shared wall made from NIC panels so they can groom and such) for at least a few more days if not the entire rest of their 10 days of recovery, though - they need to be resting up and recuperating, not rough-housing every chance they get.

 

[Pipp]

I'd give them a lot of space, but until they heal from the spays, not a lot of jumping up space. But as big of an area as you can muster with things like boxes with two holes, tunnels, maybe a footstool... they'll be establishing space and dominance. They have been 'fighting', although the chase-and-pull isn't really serious. Still, best to always check them over 12 to 24 hours after a scuffle and feel for scabs. (You can't always find bites until they scab over). I wouldn't separate them, but give them space.


sas :clover:

 

[Imbrium]

I thought they weren't supposed to have space :S

they have like 110 square feet of running around space (without access to upper levels of the condo) if I take apart the temp cage gaz is in and give them full access to the run they normally have 24/7, but I know they'll tear butt around it like mad doing bunny 500s and climb on everything and anything I give them (boxes, tunnels, their pop-up cat cubes). Nala would probably also attempt to escape again, which involves climbing vertically up the bars of the pens (she can't get over the top any more due to poster board hanging around the top edge, but there's still 2-3 feet where she *can* climb). it's only been three days since their spays and it's only been about 13h since their final dose of metacam wore off.