wet butt and light spot inside eye, Possible EC

[Luvr of Wabbits and Polar Bears]

SnowyShiloh wrote:

What other bunnies on the forum have suffered from this? I read Pippi's thread, he didn't have the eye thing though.

My girl Monsters was diagnosed with EC we did the Pancur for 28 days. Didn't seem to help much at all. This all happened before I was active with the forum. She lived for just over a year.

Once/If Skyler becomes disabled I would talk to Arlette(screen name as well) who isnt active but knows a lot about taking care of disabled bunnies.

 

[ra7751]

Keep pushing for the Ponazuril. It is the best chance to "stalemate" the EC. And a blood test is like a crystal ball to what is going on inside. The main things we are worried about with EC are the kidneys...but also the liver, O2 levels and glucose. And I would suggest doing blood work on regular basis and chart the levels...and I mean on a real spread sheet to you can visually see what the critical levels are doing. You will also need to keep a close watch on the ears as they are the most prone to infections. Many people believe that EC causes head tilt....it doesn't. Ear infections (and trauma) cause head tilt. The most likely place the first secondary infection will present is in the ears.

And again I caution against doing too much "research" on this condition as there is so much misinformation even in well known publications. I have learned so much just by "hands on" experience and my work with exotics focus vets (I live near a major vet school). The school has one of the top equine programs in the country....and pretty much what works with a horse will work on a rabbit. Ponazuril is actually made for a condition called Equine Protozoal Myeloencephalitis (EPM) which is a protozoan infection that is closely related to EC. It's presentations in a horse are very similar to EC in rabbits. So if you do much research on this, you will get much better clinical information by researching the horse information....not so much the rabbits. Much of the rabbit information is just shy of folk tales.

But stay in contact with your vet and keep pushing to get that Ponazuril going. And I will be happy to consult with your vet either by e-mail or by phone (I think the time difference will make things work out that I can talk in my evening and her work day). Stay aggressive.

Randy

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Randy, I will push for the Ponazuril. I will either call the vet this afternoon or wait until tomorrow (since she was going to call me then anyway). I think she will be very open to talking with you, and I can't tell you how thankful I am for your knowledge and willingness to help. Thank you also to Claire for looking up info and to everyone who has offered good wishes for him.

Bad news though. This evening when I got home from class, I checked him out and he had a tiny bit of green on his nostrils. I wiped it off and hoped it was just hay dust or something. It's now 4:30 in the morning, and he has more green. He doesn't have a snotty nose per se, but it's like when he had a URI last year. I suspect it's from the stress of going to the vet twice combined with the EC weakening his immune system. Does that sound like a fair assessment? What do we do now? Poor little guy can't catch a break. It's like once we heard "E. cuniculi" his body started tossing all kinds of bad stuff at him.

Sorry I didn't post in the thread earlier, I had 2 finals today and I have another one in 3 1/2 hours so I'm busy studying. I have been reading PMs and posts to this thread though.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

It's too late for me to edit my previous post, but of course I'll be calling the vet about the runny nose this afternoon. My brain is mush from worry, extreme lack of sleep, and studying. The vet works in Fairbanks for 3 weeks of each month and California for 1 week of each month and I think she's leaving for California this weekend.

 

[ra7751]

I think you are on the right track....a combination of stress from the travel and the EC affecting the immune system. It's a bit pricey, but it works....ask your vet to start Zithromax. It has to be dosed at a higher amount than dogs or cats. Most vets don't know how valuable Zithromax is against Pasteurella (and many other pathogens). It does cause a bit of an upset GI for a few days. I would suggest you acquire a probiotic such as Bene Bac (availble in powder or paste) to support the pH in the gutand it can be found at many pet stores, vet clinics and many online vendors. I would also suggest looking up a company called Platinum Performance and purchase a product called BioSponge. It is very effective at containing enterotoxins from GI upset....and your vet might be interested since it can be used in other species especially parvo dogs. It binds the toxins from a bacteria called Clostridium. I can pretty much assure you that your vet has never heard of this product as it is a horse product.....but a rabbit gut and a horse are almost identical.....and this product really works.

Randy

 

[tonyshuman]

He wasn't eating any green veggies at the time, was he? If not, it's probably time for the Zithromax.

I would also get some of the BioSponge--I bought some online not long ago to have on hand just in case. They sell a dog/cat version at www.entirelypets.com

 

[SnowyShiloh]

I just got home from my last final exam. Incidentally, I stopped on the way home and bought a bunch of different green veggies and Skyler is chowing down right now. He didn't have any yesterday though that would have made him green. I'm thinking the green could be from his hay, my 100 pound bale just ran out so Paul bought one of the bags of Kaytee hay and it's fairly dusty. Maybe he has hay dust on his nose! Regardless, his nose is running either green or clear (if clear, with hay dust in it).

The vet clinic doesn't open until 3 pm today, 4 hours from now. I will call then. Zithromax is actually what cleared up his URI last year.

 

[tonyshuman]

I've seen the hay dust get in the mucus too--I hope that's what it is. Glad Skyler's got a good appetite!

 

[ra7751]

As far as the BioSponge, I would suggest buying directly from Platinum Performance. It is much cheaper. I prefer the powder as it has more possibilities to administer. The powder can be mixed in a formula for hand feeding (for babies) and it can be spread directly on greens (as we do for older rabbits and squirrels). Here is a link to the site.

http://platinumperformance.com/animal/equine/products/productcategories/product.cfm?category_id=162

This might be a situation in which your vet might be willing to split the costs with you as even 4 pounds is a lot of BioSponge.....and the clinic can use this in any species that is presenting diarrhea due to a bacterial imbalance caused by Clostridium. Even though it's not labeled for humans, it should work with humans as the testing was done in vitro (not suggesting anyone actually take it).

This is a great product. We have had baby squirrels and rabbits come into rescue with "blow out diarrhea" and this stuff quickly resolves it. And that is really something special when you have GI compromised cottontails come it. We are sold on this product. We will be doing a presentation on it's use to the state wildlife symposium that is upcoming. I can't say enough good things about BioSponge.

Randy

 

[Pipp]

Skyler is so lucky to be Shiloh's bunny. With her, the vet, Randy and Clair on the case, he couldn't be in better hands.



sas ray:

 

[mouse_chalk]

Pipp wrote:

Skyler is so lucky to be Shiloh's bunny. With her, the vet, Randy and Clair on the case, he couldn't be in better hands.



sas ray:

I couldn't agree more.

Shiloh, I'm so sorry it was the news you'd been fearing. I am so glad that Skyler is with you though- I know he'll have the best care possible. It sounds like the vet you're with now is much better and I'm sure that between her and Randy, you'll have the best help possible for him.

You know where I am if you ever need to chat.

:hug: for you and adorable little Skyler, I'm thinking of you guys!

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Aw thank you Pipp and Jen. It means a lot to me. Jen, we haven't chatted since like September because you never show up on my buddy list anymore! I wonder what's up with that?

Randy, I will definitely see about ordering the BioSponge and if the vet clinic would like some of it too. I'm going to get some Benebac and Critical Care too. I meant to pick some Critical Care up from the vet yesterday morning but I forgot to ask for it :disgust:

I feel like a terrible bunny mom because I didn't sleep for about 36 hours because of Skyler and studying and finals, and I finally got to sleep at noon today. I set the alarm for 3 so I could call the vet when they opened, but I completely slept through it and didn't wake up until 10 minutes ago (it's 7:30). Good thing they open at 8 am tomorrow.

Something interesting has happened with Skyler though. As of right now as well as 7 1/2 hours ago right before I went to bed, his nose is clean. No sign of green or dampness. I will be monitoring it through the night. Could it be that the stress of the vet trip caused his nose to run a little, and the hay dust (he has about 3 pounds of hay in his cage, seriously) made the clear mucus look green? But now he's not stressed anymore so it went away? Tallulah used to look like she was crying and her nose would practically drip when we went to the vet because it stressed her out so badly, and Phoebe Mae's nose actually WAS dripping with very thin, clear fluid after the card ride home when she was a baby, but she didn't show any further signs of being sick and has actually only been to the vet once, the day after we got her for her health certificate to fly home with me.

What do you guys think? Is it the beginning of something bad and we should treat him with Zithromax even if his nose doesn't run again, or should we not treat him if he doesn't show anymore signs of it?

 

[tonyshuman]

That hay thing makes sense. My guys noses run a bit when they're stressed (I just cut nails and that makes them run a bit). I think if there are no more signs, no worries for now.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Thanks for your input, Claire! I really hope that's what it is.

Can anyone recommend the book "When Your Rabbit Needs Special Care" by Lucile C. Moore and Kathy Smith? Here it is on amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/dp/159580031X/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I'm about to place a big order of bunny toys from the Bunny Bunch Boutique. The Bunny Bunch is a bunny rescue in California, the one my vet works with. I usually order from Busy Bunny but buying from the rescue helps get them money. I saw that they have Apple-Banana flavored Critical Care by Oxbow for sale. Would this be a good choice for Skyler or would the fruit in it be bad for him since the vet said not to give him fruit? I can't find the list of ingredients anywhere online. Is $12 a good price? It doesn't say what size the bag is on the website, but I'm going to assume it's the smaller bag.

 

[ra7751]

I would get your vet's opinion since she has had "hands on". With EC rabbits, I do tend to modify my rules on antibiotics since I know there will be infections. Normally I don't use antibiotics unless I have a confirmed bacterial infection. The rules change with EC rabbits. I will do "pre-emptive" strikes with antibiotics since I know what will happen. Not exactly the proper way to use antibiotics, but you have to do what you have to do. The thing with this is to use different antibiotics over time. I use a variety of drugs that I know act in different ways against most of the pathogens a rabbit usually presents. In addition to Zithromax, I have rotated drugs such as Zeniquin, Metronidazole, Penicillin, Convenia and Chloramphenicol. I have used Docycycline in a couple of instances with a bacteria called Peptostreptococcus. You notice that I didn't mention any sulfa drugs or Baytril since they are notvery effective and sulfa has been linked to some serious GI issues.Zeniquin is a flouroquinolone like Baytrilbut hasn't shown resistanceissues....yet. But I would let your vet make any decision on using antibiotics since she is there to actually see what is going on.

Randy

 

[tonyshuman]

I know angieluv and TreasuredFriend like that book.

I don't know about the price for Critical Care, but I think it will be fine to feed him. It may have a bit of fruit or sugar in it, but they make it to sustain ill rabbits or rabbits that can't eat on their own, so it should be balanced enough in terms of carbs, proteins, and fibers to give to him. The reason the vet doesn't want him to have lots of fruit is the sugar.

Randy is right that the vet can best determine what's up with his nose.

 

[ra7751]

The Critical Care is good stuff....the only Oxbow product I use. It can be fed exclusively...it's that good. A good way to feed it and do some TLC is to mix it into a paste and spread it on a leaf of lettuce. Roll it up like a burrito and hand feed it. This is something I do with head tilt rabbits in teaching them orientation as they recover.

While it's OK to plan ahead...don't resign yourself to anything yet. I have seen rabbits go into remission....that is why I would really like to see that Ponazuril get in there quickly. Most of the changes you need to make in having a "special needs" is just common sense.

An alternative to Critical Care is American Pet Diner's "Critter Be Better". It is like a true probiotic food that comes in a powder and a pellet. This product actually contains more bacterial cultures than Critical Care. The powder form is quite course and somewhat difficult to mix....but it can be sprinkled on greens. I have not used the pellets since I only use it for baby cottontails.

Randy

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Thanks, Randy. I will get the vet's opinion. Would you mind PMing me your e-mail address so I could pass it on to the vet this afternoon?

Also, my mom was able to get all her money except $150 back from the plane tickets! I will be staying here with Skyler the whole time and won't be spending Christmas with my family. I'm glad I will be able to be here for him.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

The vet just called. She called well after the clinic closed for the day an stayed on the phone for a good 20 minutes. She said the blood work hasn't come back yet, but the results of the urinalysis show that he does NOT have a UTI (thank goodness), but his urine is diluted some. She is leaving for California tomorrow but will have the clinic fax her the blood work results, then she will call me. She gave me a list of things to watch for in Skyler and to call the clinic ASAP if I see them so they can call her.

As for the runny nose, she agrees that it was likely the stress combined with the hay dust and doesn't think we need to medicate him for it right now.

As for the ponazuril (which I'm finally pronouncing correctly), she has decided not to give it to him at this time. She said she has done extensive research on it (which I believe), looking at studies and talking to rabbit gurus and posting on vet forums, and she doesn't think it would be a good choice. She said that ponazuril affects a different kind of parasite than E. cuniculi and that it would be a reasonable treatment for coccidia (which is incidentally what Tallulah died from, would have loved to have ponazuril a year and a half ago!), but that none of the research she did/people she talked to showed it really helping rabbits with EC. She doesn't want to prescribe something that could hurt him. She said she's pretty adamant about not using this drug on him. Randy, I gave her your e-mail address. She's going to talk to a couple more people about it when she's in California. She wants to continue with the Panacur and put him on fenbendazole instead. She said if he starts getting worse, she will consider trying the ponazuril on him, and if she finds any evidence that satisfies her that it could be could for him, she will prescribe it. I can't change her mind on something like this or force her to prescribe something.

 

[ra7751]

That isn't good. Every vet should know that you have to treat this parasite in the brain. Panacur (which is Fenbendazole) doesn't cross the blood/brain barrier...Ponazuril does. And the parasite that Ponazuril is made to treat is almost identical parasite in horse known as EPM. And E Cuniculi is technically a coccidia. If you can get in touch with her, ask her to Google Dr. Dana (pronounced like Donna) Krempels....she is one of the heads of the Biology Department of University of Miami (FL). She also runs the House Rabbit Society in South Florida. She started using Ponazuril just after I did....and I think she has also run Ponazuril and Panacur together. Time is important since the damage is continuing in the brain. This is one of those situations in which most vets have not actually seen E Cuniculi and are relying on old outdated information....I have worked with several on working a protocol with Ponazuril. If there is any way you can get in touch with her....please have her contact either me or Dr. Krempels....I will even send her my personal phone number.....that is how important it is to attack this aggressively.

Randy