So,....you're thinking about breeding? Read this and think some more!

[TinysMom]

I want to start out by saying that this thread is NOT directed at anyone in particular or at any particular threads folks may have posted in the past about breeding.

However - after thinking about our experiences since 12/24 with our two litters and what we've gone through - I thought I would share some things - especially since I've been encouraged to by some who have been "in the know" of what is happening.

As many of you know - we had two litters of flemish giants born - 12/24 Athena had 11 babies and on 12/27 Sophia had 6 babies - for a total of 17. These were both planned breedings taking into account the health of all the parents, their dispositions, their genetics, etc.

I did what is always recommended - I bred two does at about the same time (a day or so apart) - so that I would have a backup doe (Thank God now that I did).
Hint #1 - NEVER BREED ONLY ONE DOE AT A TIME!

I was prepared with the right size nestboxes, extra hay, straw, etc. HOWEVER...I did not have "backup formula" just in case. HINT #2 - Make sure you're TOTALLY prepared with everything - including formula or a way to get it within 24 hours.

Things went well - even with Athena's 11 babies. She was feeding them all - some did not get as much as others - but still yet - they were doing fine.

Then - Sophia had her babies - and the troubles started. Why?

Not only did she not nurse - but her milk never came in. At first we tried alternating them with Athena's to get at least some milk in them - but as you can tell - I had to run out and get formula - and try to find items over the holiday week. (Remember hint #2?)

Then - Sophia passed something like blood in her urine - a clot of it. I didn't think a lot of it - I mean - I did - but I cleaned her up really good and was so busy with the babies - I didn't think.

Till I noticed she wasn't herself the next day....very affectionate and needy of attention - very warm to the touch - and not eating like usual. She would eat a treat - but not scarf it down like usual.

So we take a trip to the vet (Hint #3 - have a relationship with a vet that will treat animals - and have an emergency fund of several hundred dollars "just in case").

We have no local vets that deal with rabbits....and I'm not overly thrilled with the vet that is 70 miles away - so we make a trip to San Antonio (180 miles one way) to see a vet that I trust - on New Year's Eve - when she is closing at noon.

After an exam, an x-ray AND an ultrasound (which the vet did not charge me for) - plus meds - I walk away $250 poorer knowing that Sophia probably has some sort of a uterine infection. (The vet was concerned and did the ultrasound because she thought a uterine horn was 'enlarged' as she put it). We also decide that after seeing the fat around her ovaries/uterine horn (whatever it was?) - that it would be best to neuter her next month. The vet was worried she could go downhill over the weekend and I asked for IV fluids just in case - and she felt like the next option was exploratory surgery to see if there is an infection - but that would mean seeing the emergency vet....which is more money.

Remember the emergency fund hint? Its REALLY IMPORTANT.

So with my two litters of flemish giant babies - here are my expenses so far....

[align=center]$250 - vet visit
$50 - gas to see vet
$50 - formula supplies, etc.


[align=left]That doesn't include 6 hours of drive time - plus the time I have to spend hand-feeding the babies - plus the heartbreak of losing three babies - two due to lack of a nursing mom and one due to an attack from another rabbit after it fell out of the nestbox (from mama nursing) and crawled into a different cage).


In addition - if I want to continue to breed "safely" and have enough does to breed a the same time - I will probably have to bring in another doe (which I was going to do anyway) because what if I breed Nyx (a big girl) and Athena (a small girl) and like Sophia - Nyx doesn't have milk. I think in the future I will do three litters at one time to be safe.

Now - I want to explain that the formula, etc. was so high because I bought concentrated powder formulas for goat's milk, KMR, colostrum, etc. to use a formula that Dana Krempels recommends (and my vet approved of it). People had been using the puppy replacement but as Randy shared before - they changed the forumulation and it now shouldn't be used.

I know of one lionhead breeder in Texas - who had doe develop a prolapsed uterus during delivery. She rushed the doe to the vet - he did an emergency c-section to save the kits. Turned out she lost the doe - and lost all the kits - and wound up paying $600 for the vet bill.

So tell me - does breeding still sound "fun"?

It isn't that I'm against breeding - after all - I am a breeder.

But the idea of breeding isn't something to be "toyed around with" because you want to have "cute babies".

If you want the experience of babies - see if you can foster a pregnant/nursing mom with litter from a rescue. At least that way they pay the bills!

Just my .02 ~ hope it helps someone.
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[SweetSassy]

Wow....thanks for all the info.



I know I, personally,could NEVER be a breeder. I would get to emotional (deaths,bonding with bunnies,etc...)and attached.



Sounds like you have a good plan for the future litters to come.

 

[BlueCamasRabbitry]

Peg, I was wondering if you could provide further detail on the puppy formula being changed. Was this done recently? I have a container of it, but got it last year sometime.

Should KMR be used now, instead of the Puppy Milk Replacer?

Thanks,
Emily

 

[mistyjr]

I know myself it is hard breeding. I was into breeding pugs. And getting attached was the hardest thing ever. It isnt a game and its not for fun. People that do breed need to do it responsible. It's not a game.. Loosing babies or the Female isnt fun either.

 

[gingers_giants]

I agree 100% with what you posted TinysMom.

 

[TinysMom]

BlueSkyAcresRabbitry wrote:

Peg, I was wondering if you could provide further detail on the puppy formula being changed. Was this done recently? I have a container of it, but got it last year sometime.

Should KMR be used now, instead of the Puppy Milk Replacer?

Thanks,
Emily

Randy posted something about it in November if I remember right....but I can't remember the post right off. He basically stated he didn't recommend it anymore because they changed the formulation and it was causing rabbits to have very bad diaherrea (sp?).

 

[TinysMom]

This is where I found the formula I'm using. Dana Krempels is a respected rabbit specialist who has been well known for many years.

 

[DeniseJP]

Excellent post!

Another thought is after you get through the delivery and birth and get the kits to weaning age, a responsible home is needed for them and that can be a challenge.

It is not for the faint of heart - I bred miniature horses for years and it was tough losing foals, finding responsible buyers and not making my expenses back, even with foals that won in the show ring. The thought of losing my broodmares was enough to cause me to hang up my hat there.

Denise

 

[wabbitmom12]

DeniseJP wrote:

Excellent post!

Another thought is after you get through the delivery and birth and get the kits to weaning age, a responsible home is needed for them and that can be a challenge.

...finding responsible buyers and not making my expenses back, even with foals that won in the show ring.

Super Ditto! If you want to breed, you need to have a long term committment to the babies...which will soon be full sized rabbits. Potential Breeder, ask yourself:Do you have the space to keep them properly, and a large enough food budget, if they should be with you awhile?

As for not making the expenses back....yeah. Selling the offspring will offset some costs, SOMETIMES. But, after reading Tiny'sMom's story, we can see that you can never tell what a particular litter will cost you. And this same expense can occur with ANY size litter...or a litter that ends up with no survivors!

Thanks for the good food for thought, Peg!

 

[BlueGiants]

Great post Peg! And all serious words of wisdom. I really hope that people take this into consideration before breeding. Maybe even read it twice!

I'm sorry you've been through so much with your first two Flemish litters.I'mreally happy that Athena had to milk to raise 11 (no small feat there!).And I'm glad to hear that Sophia will be alright.:hug:

 

[polly]

Good post Peg. I think most of the time we hear how its the dwarf breeds who have complications and they can do but also there is a kind of well bigger rabbits dont have so much problems breeding which is wrong.
Im sorry you have been through all that with your first couple of litters hugs xx

 

[Wabbitdad12]

All I can say is well done.

 

[paul2641]

Thanks, Peg this gives me a real insight to everything, And will make me think really hard if I ever decide I want to get into breeding, I really love having you around on this forum wait a go Peg!

:great:

 

[pOker]

:highfive:

 

[wooly_queen]

Good post Peg.

I'm sorry about all your troubles though! I bred my flemish onnce and she had 13 kits, 11 of them lived into adulthood. NEVER AGAIN!!! lol That's just way to many to care for. I could also never breed two at a time becuase I would be afraid of the astonishing number I would get! lol So that ended it with flemish for me. Great rabbits, but not for me. I still have the doe though . I breed woolies and thriantas now. The woolies are much safer to breed more than one at a time. lol

 

[Jenson]

Great post Peg. So sorry to hear you've had complications with your Flemmies.

I would just like to add that we all know that there are some people out therewho choose to breed despite good advice not too. It is so frustrating forthe Rabbitry Mods and anyone who wants to see bunny owners putting their rabbits first to see people going against their advice and putting their rabbits at risk.I'm not sure if these people are thinking, "It'll never happen to me." or if they just really don't have enough concern for the life and health of their doe.

I just want to say to those people, yes,complications DO happen, it's not just breeders trying to scare you off breeding. I know it's very tempting to breed a litter of lovely cute babies, but believe the experienced breeders who tell you it's not so nice when your doe is bleeding to death to in yourarms, or dies in labor leaving you to struggle with hand rearing. It does happenand that is a risk every breeder takes when they decide to breed, so if you're not in it 100% (that also means being able to pay for any treatment your doe might need or having someone else who is willing to do that) then PLEASE, wait until you are in a position to do it properly. It's not you that suffers if something goes wrong, it is your doe, and she deserves better than that. I thinkmost breeders here put theirdoes first, andthat is the only wayyou canbe a responsible breeder.

Yourdoe has to grow, carry and deliverall those lovely babies for you, she deserves the very best care you can offer for her efforts!

 

[Luluznewz]

So this is sorta off topic, but I thought it might be a good time to say it. This can sorta also be seen as a reason to spay or neuter all "pet only" rabbits. Accidental breedings are often times even more problematic becuase they might be happening with inexperienced owners.

The costs associated with trying to save the mom and babies seem more expensive than just spaying the rabbit in the first place would.

Sorry if thats a little off topic, but it seemed relevant.

 

[wabbitmom12]

Luluznewz wrote:

So this is sorta off topic, but I thought it might be a good time to say it. This can sorta also be seen as a reason to spay or neuter all "pet only" rabbits. Accidental breedings are often times even more problematic becuase they might be happening with inexperienced owners.

I'd second that. You could have 7-12 years with a doe, anda doe that is WAY too old for breeding could be impregnated by accident.That would be a real recipe forcomplications.

 

[katt]

peg, just wanted to say that when i posted my 'memories of breeding' in my oldblog you responded that it made you think.(not sure if you remember that post, it was over a year ago)

i just wanted to let you know that your post, your on going stuggle and love for these babies and rabbits has made me think.

it has made me remember what breeding is, and the risks involved. while i don't think i will ever breed again, it helps to read this and remember.

thank you

 

[TinysMom]

katt wrote:

peg, just wanted to say that when i posted my 'memories of breeding' in my oldblog you responded that it made you think. (not sure if you remember that post, it was over a year ago)

i just wanted to let you know that your post, your on going stuggle and love for these babies and rabbits has made me think.

it has made me remember what breeding is, and the risks involved. while i don't think i will ever breed again, it helps to read this and remember.

thank you

Katt,

I do remember that blog entry - I was struggling so much with breeding and whether to continue it or not. Even after I decided to get out of breeding - I had people approach me and say i shouldn't get out - that I had integrity and we needed more breeders like that. Someone who has some of Miss Bea's offspring even offered to GIVE me some if I wanted to get back into breeding (and yes - that has been tempting me).

But when I almost lost Saphira - I knew it was time to stop - and I thought I'd never get back into breeding again.

However - the fact was - I missed the babies - I missed the late nights of waiting for a mama to kindle - I even missed the different relationship I had with the mamas when they were mamas.

My numbers were going down - and I thought I'd like to start again - but with my true "heart breed".

When I rushed Sophia to the vet last week and realized she could be ill - I wound up calling Alicia and crying on her shoulder. I felt like I was right back where I was with Saphira....putting the life of a doe I love at risk. I felt like I was playing God with their lives.

As I told Alicia - I was thinking of getting out of breeding - again. How could I even dare to think of breeding Nyx (something I am struggling with a little bit - but getting more comfortable with).

But I was reminded of the fact that I'm not the same person now that I was back then. I'm stronger emotionally. I have less rabbits now and am not "over breeding" by breeding 5 or 10 or more does at one time for an event like Nationals. I have a vet I like and trust (even if she is 180 miles away one way).

I also have connections with other breeders who can help me spot problems (like the fact Sophia might have a retained kit or placenta).

I think the major thing that helped me though - was to realize I am breeding for different reasons and I'm raising my rabbits differently than other breeders...for a purpose.

I think flemish giants make awesome pets and while I am breeding the best quality of rabbits I can find - I am raising them (training them?) to become socialized and "pet rabbits".

When Nyx arrived here - there was a MAJOR difference between her and the others. She wasn't skittish or afraid. She was confident of herself and liked being around humans. She wasn't afraid to run and play and be herself.

I believe it is because she was raised in a "pet home" with Dave and Karen so she was a few steps ahead of the others in being able to relate to humans and enjoy them.

That is my goal for the rabbits that come from here. Yes - I'd like them to do well on the show tables and I want to "improve the breed".

BUT - there is more to a rabbit's life than a few hours every month at shows....there's the everyday relationship they have with the person they live with.

That is my focus - and that is what sets me apart from many other breeders (at least here in Texas) and why I want to keep breeding.

So I will risk the heartache and the sadness - and even the expense - because in the long run - I know I will bring joy to the lives of others.