Resolved!-not eating, drooling, not pooping...

[Pipp]

He was probably given a post surgery pain med, and/or the anesthetic had pain med properties, and now its worn off and he's not feeling so good.

I've given you the protocol numerous times already -- 'force' feeding a pellet slurry (via syringe if he won't eat it out of the bowl) with the probiotic, keep him drinking, after he eats and drinks give him a little Ibuprofen, and keep him warm.

He has to have something in his system.

Does he have lumps on his jaw that have been getting bigger? If they don't think the tooth root is abscessed, he should recover, but I really hope they looked at the x-rays or took their own.


sas :clover:

 

[MILU]

There's no more need for force feeding. He's been eating by his own will since after the procedure last morning, and this morning, again, ate and drank water without being forced, and I gave him the probiotics and did what you said. His general state is good, I jut don't see his droppings and this is bugging me..
He's getting food "in" but not "out". Maybe it's "normal" for now and I don't know..?

The thing my bunny has under the chin is almost undetectable, but I noticed something there. They looked at the x-rays, don't ask me if they understand it. I'll keep looking for someone who can give him the antibiotic combo - or think of doing it myself if I find the drugs.

 

[Pipp]

Just eating a few mouthfuls here and there isn't really enough, but if he's doing more than that, just hold steady, the rest will come!

Exercise and tummy massages will still help, but lots of fiber and fluids is still the best thing.

Has he perked up again? Its not a painful procedure other than he probably has a very sore mouth from having it cranked open with a brace, unless he does have a tooth root abscess and the procedure caused more pain.

But if the vet saw the x-rays and got a good look at his teeth and jaw and saw no signs of an infection, I'm really not sure I'd give him a strong regiment of antibiotics. I could do more harm than good. You have the digital x-rays, I'd get a second opinion.

You can email my vet, Joseph Martinez, at Greencrossvet @ yahoo.ca, explain where you are and what the situation is, and that somebody on Rabbits Online suggested that you contact him, and ask if you can email them for him to look at.

I'm sure he'll do that for you. Just let him know the molar spurs were filed and ask if he thinks there might be infection and if the bunny should be on antibiotics.



sas :clover:

 

[Maureen Las]

Pipp wrote:

Just eating a few mouthfuls here and there isn't really enough, but if he's doing more than that, just hold steady, the rest will come!

Exercise and tummy massages will still help, but lots of fiber and fluids is still the best thing.

Has he perked up again? Its not a painful procedure other than he probably has a very sore mouth from having it cranked open with a brace, unless he does have a tooth root abscess and the procedure caused more pain.

But if the vet saw the x-rays and got a good look at his teeth and jaw and saw no signs of an infection, I'm really not sure I'd give him a strong regiment of antibiotics. I could do more harm than good. You have the digital x-rays, I'd get a second opinion.

You can email my vet, Joseph Martinez, at Greencrossvet @ yahoo.ca, explain where you are and what the situation is, and that somebody on Rabbits Online suggested that you contact him, and ask if you can email them for him to look at.

I'm sure he'll do that for you. Just let him know the molar spurs were filed and ask if he thinks there might be infection and if the bunny should be on antibiotics.



sas :clover:

I really trust Randy's read on the x-ray butI do think it would be great to get a 2nd opinion on this. It really would be great if Dr Martinez could read the xrays also.

Go for it!

 

[tonyshuman]

Yes, that would be good. I agree too that it sounds like he's in pain--the episodes of acting strange coming and going sounds like pain. Some ibuprofen would help. Here's a dosage calculator.

http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/rx/drugcalc.html

 

[MILU]

Wow, thanks!!! I do trust what Randy said and still want my bunny to have the antibiotic shots, but if you all now suggest dr. Martinez, I'll contact him - thank you!

You were right about the droppings. They came out!

My bun eats and drinks water on his own will but is still like Jekyll and Hyde (perhaps 'cause of the bloating? Even with the simethicone and probiotics, he's still bloated - although less than before).
One more funny thing I noticed: I heard a funny noise when he chews (not from food). I wonder what the heck now...
I think it may be teeth gritting each other??

Btw - do you recommend washing his teeth with peroxide?

 

[Pipp]

I never rely on any one source no matter how much faith I have in them. When you have a rabbit-savvy non-Vet reading x-rays on a small message board vs: several non-rabbit-savvy-but-dental-savvy Vets presumably reading full size x-rays on a backlit screen and physically examining the rabbit under anesthetic, and they disagree, it's time to get a third opinion.

What kind of a noise is he making? Do you know the difference between the pain grinding (usually a loud clicking noise) and pleasure 'tooth purrs' with your rabbit? If he's making a different noise altogether, he could just be feeling 'weird' and moving his mouth around because its feeling different to him.

The key might be his reaction to chewing. Is he chewing with gusto now when before he was chewing tentatively? Was he picking up some food and dropping it before? Is he doing that now?

A lot of the digestion issues are related to the recent lack of a full diet -- it takes a while to get back on track -- but also to how they chew. I've come to the conclusion via research and experience that how they chew greatly effects the GI tract an its output.

My dwarf has genetically bad teeth and while I can control her molar spurs with diet, and I watch her eat every bit of a salad twice as big as she is, her poops remain tiny, misshapen little things. I've stopped worrying about them, she's otherwise very healthy, and what they lack in size she makes up for in volume.


sas :rabbithop

 

[MILU]

hi Sas and everybody

Thanks a lot for your input! None of our vets saw the x-rays on a backlit screen - I was given the x-rays on a CD. The vet who asked them doesn't even have a copy, he asked me to send them to him by email (and never replied any of the 3 I sent). One more reason why I dumped the "best" vet here.

About the noise when chewing, it was something different from all I heard before. Not a purr I'm sure, and it didn't sound like the pain noise. I haven't heard it anymore though. Weird bunny!!

No more droppings again. I'm worried, 'cause he eats enough. I don't know if, pushing more food into him, i'll damage his tummy..?
I'm still giving him juice, water, probiotics, etc., besides the food and water he has by himself. He did his "stuff" only once since Thursday, and it was 1 lil cluster and 2 diarrheal watery stuff only.

The funny thing is that, since before the procedure, he changed his preferred food from leaves and sunflower seeds to tree branches. He's been eating mostly mango tree branches, hay, mango leaves (and paper!!). He refuses his pellets and doesn't want his favorite leaves much. He refuses sunflower seeds which is a BIG indication that something's wrong with him!

My 2 ways of testing if he's ok are:

1- if he doesn't lick me, he's not ok (he's been doing this after the surgery, moderately)

2- if he refuses sunflower seeds, then he's DEFINITELY NOT OK … he loves them! He used to bite all the 3 ones I'd give him at once, chewed quickly and ran after me asking for more. Now he doesn't want even one, and when he chews anything, it takes him forever.. He's been a little better but not 100%.
He drops food from his mouth when eating. I guess he's not noticing it, it's not a refusal case like before - I guess. Also, he doesn't seem to move his back legs and calculate his jumps too well. Is it possible that some of the anesthesia is still working?

My bunny produced better droppings the 1st time I gave him the probiotics (1 day before surgery - Thursday), now, the only time I saw them, they were all messy again….

I wrote to the email address you gave me, thank you SO MUCH!!

How interesting about your dwarf. I'm sure she's very healthy. Like my bunny before, she eats a lot. How sweet!!! Give her a kiss for me.
et::bunny19:

 

[MILU]

As I promised, here's what my bunny's dentist gave me with images of his teeth - above you have them before, and below you have the same area after the procedure. Is it my impression or, in the last images (at your right side) the 1st upper teeth we see are still a little bit long and sharp? That last pic shows the back teeth elongated, those were filed.

I can see his upper gums sort of bleeding after the procedure.. oh, my poor bunny...
:sigh:

 

[Maureen Las]

The images really show his teeth were sharp and in need of filing; from my inexperienced eye they look good now.
I would guess that the anesthesia is still affecting him ..probably not the same thing that we use here.
Were you able to give him ibuprofen for pain. ?

When a rabbit eats paper it often suggests the rabbit is attempting to get fiber; this is a frequent occurence of rabbit in stasis.

he sounds like he is having difficulty getting used to his normal set of teeth and recovering rom the anesthesia ..unless there is a jaw abscess present that is painful

refusing his favorite food may be a result of the procedure and not necessarily that he is very sick.

My rabbit Beau, has his teeth done every few months and has had many molar extractions and also has periodontal disease.

After his procedures he often refuses a favorite food or drink which I have chalked up to some "different' way his mouth feels after the procedure.

Tell me exactly what he is eating now and also what you have available to feed him

Are you syringing food at all/ ?


you possibly could wet his pellets down into a gruel and syringe him some of it
also use a food processor tomix up veggies etc. ...

Does he appear inactive and lethargic or does he seem fairly normal ?

 

[MILU]

He seems fairly normal, but too quiet and always at his home, doesn't want to come out very often. Seems a little mad or in pain.

He wants to eat paper all the time, and I saw him not only once attempting to eat walls (made of bricks and cement), and even licking and trying to bite my bed, made of iron!!

Here we have alfafa hay, carrots, carrot leaves, broccoli, something we call "catalonia" (my bunny's ex-favorite), sunflower seeds ("favoritest" treats), cauliflower leaves, fruits, etc.
I gave him carrot and papaya juice yesterday and today, along with water+ probiotics and simethicone.
He's been eating mango leaves and branches (from a mango tree - his favorite now), alfafa hay, and a little bit of catalonia, like, half a leave, only the hardest part of it. Not his favorite anymore.He also eats 1 bite of banana and apple a day.

For some reason, he's only wanted to eat hard things.

I once gave him pain medicine but I'm afraid maybe they can stop/block his tummy activity even more?

If I process food and grind it thin, make little balls and put them in his mouth, he won't want them. He wants to chew and to eat, I can tell he's eager for something specific and gets disappointed when I show up with the options we have here. He wants hard stuff, but not the wood I have here as well. I haven't figured out WHAT he wants. Maybe paper!! Darn!

:cooking:

 

[MILU]

I really worry about the absence of his droppings... (we never think we'll say this and want them around until they're not there anymore.. hehe)

 

[Maureen Las]

it sounds like you are keeping him hydrated which is good;

if you are giving simethicone constantly then I would stop doing that as it can be constipating.
the slow downof the gut could be a result of the anesthesia and the general stress from the procedure.

if he is eating any food ( hard or soft) then that is good
I sometimes use pure fresh pineapple juice( has to be fresh)when my buns are not pooping ...giving a few ccs a few times daily.
this is a good option , however, if he has any sores in his mouth it would burn them so maybe not ...

 

[MILU]

Thanks, Angieluv! I stopped giving him the simethicone. I suspect that the anesthesia may have to do with worsening his GI probs too.. I was told that pineapple juice is good, but also that it will make him produce more gas. Whatever is good for one thing seems to be bad for another.. onder: couldn't life be easier?

It's been days since the last time he went potty.. he still eats some, though.

Sas:

Here's what Dr. Martinez said:
"hi vivian,sorry(or not) i cant see an abscess,the tooth with the spur isnt the cause of anorexia in my opinion,there maybe a Disbiosis, kind of maldigestion and antibiotics may aggravate the condition,we use Ovol to get the gas out,the one used on infants for the same purpose,also Acidophilus 1 capsule twice daily and force feeding,get sq fluids from vet,if you can do a blood and urine tests would be nice,i give also injections of vit B12.

Dr.Joseph Martinez ,DVM
. VETERINARIAN"

Well, that makes things easier (I guess) for me, as I never found anyone who could give my bunny the antibiotics.
I've been doing all Dr. martinez recommended, but we don't have acidophilus except for the liquid form with milk.. but I guess the problem now is much simpler than we thought. Still I'm worried my bunny hasn't gone potty since Sat. morning.
Lots of people told me it's the anesthesia, that it makes even people constipated for some days.
:dunno

 

[tonyshuman]

I would think that the spur and anesthesia together could cause some GI issues. Not eating due to pain, and then the anesthesia itself can introduce a bit of gas into the GI tract--these could be causing it.

I thought you had the acidophilus as a probiotic? It was some other probiotic? Sometimes you can find acidophilus capsules at health food stores, as a human supplement.

http://www.mothernature.com/shop/detail.cfm/sku/40120

Vitamin B12 shots can stimulate the appetite, but a vet must give them.

 

[MILU]

YEP, whoever guessed spurs + anesthesia made my bunny's tummy work out of pace - you're so right!

Today he finally made his "stuff" in a reasonable quantity, ate and played, so I can say he's back to normal. I'm SO HAPPY!!
He's smart, hungry and going potty again.
I was concerned about finding someone to give him the combo shots, but I guess now, after having also the opinion of a savvy vet like dr. Martinez in Canada, I can relax about that.. ?
So it seems that there are no more issues anymore!!

I'M VERY THANKFUL TO ALL OF YOU HERE, YOU ALL HELPED ME SAVING A LIFE THAT COULD HAVE PERISHED OTHERWISE. YOUR INSTRUCTIONS AND SUPPORT WERE VITAL FOR MY BUNNY. WE THANK YOU AND APPRECIATE!

Hard to believe I was even thinking there was no way out for my bun, thought of euthanasia and now he's happy like a baby again.

THANKS!! YOU'RE ALL HEROES!

 

[Maureen Las]

I'm so glad that he's better

 

[NorthernAutumn]

I've been reading this thread since the beginning... and am super impressed with the incredible job you have done for your bunny, Vivian!
:highfive:
You are one remarkable lady.. such tenacity! He's one lucky boy to have such a loving bun mom like you:hug:.


As for all the infirmary mods,
:great::great::great::great:

You never fail to amaze!

 

[MILU]

I'm glad he's better too!
Thanks!!!
:blushan:

I did what I could, and would do more if needed. Our pets feel and know when we love them. I'm sure that made a difference when he went to surgery weak, after +2 weekes without eating solid foods!!
But my efforts wouldn't have been enough if I hadn't met such wonderful people here.
** what's "infirmary mods"? (English isn't my 1st language, as you can see.. hehe)
:embarrassed:

 

[aurora369]

Infirmary is kind of like another name for hospital, or place for the sick.

Mod is short for moderator, which is a person that keeps the peace, gets people to talk through problems, makes sure that rules or guidelines are followed.

I am also very happy to see your little bunny feeling better. You should start a blog for him and post some pictures and stories of him. You could do this here if you wanted:
http://rabbitsonline.net/view_forum.php?id=6

-Dawn