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I hope this stops people from making stupidstatements in the future about being sorry for these people or sayingthey should have their pets. Humane Investigators do not take awayanimals unless it is necessary. Don't fall for the crap people spew ininterviews, because its not the truth. It's his sick twisted view ofreality.
 
MaevePotter wrote:
I hope this stops people from making stupid statements inthe future about being sorry for these people or saying they shouldhave their pets. Humane Investigators do not take away animals unlessit is necessary. Don't fall for the crap people spew in interviews,because its not the truth. It's his sick twisted view ofreality.
MaevePotter, no statement that was involved in this thread was"stupid." Frankly, I find it refreshing that people were posting theirviews. Also, I find some things that, for example PETA does,that is completely stupid and irrelevant. And they do make crap up alot to get their point across, so why not be suspicious of others doingit? I'm the kind of person who needs to SEE it to believe it. I saw howbad it was and I believe it now.

My point was, what would constitute as abuse? From the first interviewall they mentioned were 3 sick bunnies and crap piled up. Would thatconsititute taking them away? I don't think all of them, no. Would whatthey really have constitute taking them away, yes.

Also,please don't be so darn negative and...condemning inyour posts (at least in regards to this thread). Everyone is entitledto their own opinions just like you. However, fyi, yours may not be theonly one or the correct one all the time. I'm not trying to be mean,but geez, I think your above post was more a 'P.S I told you so' thatwasn't really necessary. Justa thought.

(EDIT: What I meant by the last paragraph is just be aware that peoplelike myself and others DID put critical thoughts and feelings intotheir posts. We weren't just saying random "stupid statements" as youdubbed them.)
 
i wanted to say that i agree with lalena. . .

i personally felt that your post was rude. . . i started to reply, butwas a little worked up and needed to step away from the thread. . .

i think that with the information that was avalible when those "stupid statements" were made that everything was justified. . .

lets be honest here, the story aired on fox, and they aren't known foralways having the truth in a story or all the correct facts. . . butneedless of that the information we had been givin made the situationsound not nearly as bad as it was. . . therefore i feel completelyjustified in every word i said at the time, i don't think my thoughtscontinue as of now with all the updated information we have gotten.


 
I agree, everyone is entitled to their ownopinions, thats what makes RO such a wonderful community to be a partof. We are such a diverse group with different interests and opinionsand thats OK ;)

I also think there has been a lot of information floating around and ithas been difficult to sort out the truth. I wanted to post an email Ireceived with a statement from well-respected Susan Brown, DVM, whichdoes help give us a clear idea of the situation. I left out a fewparagraphs at the end bc it was so long.



STATEMENT POSTED ON BEHALF OF DR. SUSAN A. BROWN, DVM

After being intimately involved with the care of the rabbits in theWatseka Rabbit confiscation case ordered by the Illinois Department ofAgriculture and implemented by the South Suburban Humane Society (SSHS)I would like to correct a lot of rampant, misleading and inflammatoryrumors that are running around about the rabbits in question. I havejust finished testifying at the hearing and I would like to make thefollowing statements.

I cannot speak for all the conditions at the breeder's facility becauseI did not see it, only pictures. The bottom line there, is that it didneed to have adequate ventilation and feces and urine needed to becleaned. There were pictures of large piles of stool on the ground andthere was ammonia from the breakdown of urine in the air. There was noelectricity in the building so the fans were not running. There wereclearly serious sanitation issues and ventilation issues withdiseaseoutbreaks as the consequence as the main concerns.

I do not believe that this was a "rabbit mill" strictly for the purposeof breeding rabbits for sale to pet stores. The animals examined wereof high quality and many were show quality. He did not have multiplerabbits that were pregnant at the time of seizure which would haveindicated he was only in it for mass production of rabbits. I think itis wrong to use this label. Judging from the quality of all his animalshe was not in it just to produce as many rabbits as possible. He wasproducing high quality rabbits of a lesser number then what would beconsidered a "mill".

98% of the rabbits I examined had NORMAL body condition. It is untruethat most were thin or wasted. The rabbits were fed an acceptable highfiber (17%) high quality commercial rabbit diet. He did not feed hay,but the fiber content of the ration was acceptable for commericalrabbitrypurposes. He may have had many other issues ofsanitation, ventilation and inadequate watering system but the rabbitswere not dehydrated and were in good body condition. There were noobese animals. Dental condition was excellent with only two rabbitswith mild incisor malocclusion. There were approximately 4 thin animalsdue to various disease issues.

Regarding the feeding issues for these rabbits, as stated they were ona good quality commercial rabbit pellet at 17% fiber and around 16%protein. At the shelter we started them on a Purina Complete diet of20% minimum fiber and similar protein and other content. We also addedgrass hay as many of you know the many health benefits of hay, in thiscase my primary concern was to provide more indigestible fiber toprotect the GI tract (mostly the cecum) from huge fluctuationsin microflora that might occur in a population of rabbitsthat was under less then wonderful living
conditions, stressed by the move to the shelter, stressed by the newhousing and all the sights and sounds at the shelter and for thoseindividuals stressed by overt
disease and consequent medication. We asked that NO fresh foods begiven at this time as that just introduces more new variables to a "GIfragile" population. Of course we all know that fresh greens are greatfor rabbits but in this case I knew I would have breaks of temporarysoft stools from greens introduction thus making my job of monitoringserious disease more difficult. It may take a few weeks to get the GIflora to become stablized after all this stress at which time we
will reevaluate the diet for any further additions such as fresh foods.Fresh foods are not a critical issue right now. Allowing these rabbitsto become stabilized is more important.

Approximately 25% of the rabbits had infectious disease, either rabbitsyphilis (caused by the spirochete bacteria Treponema cuniculi) orupper respiratory
infection or pneumonia. The URI and pneumonia could have been caused bya whole range of bacteria, and Pasteurella I am sure was in the mix butI am not calling this a pasteurella outbreak because that is a bitsimplistic. Suffice it to say, they were predisposed to developingrespiratory infections by poor ventilation, high ammonia levels andsanitation and by not treating the animals as they broke with disease to
help prevent the spread. In a commercial rabbitry you MIGHT have 10%infectious disease present as acceptable to the commercial industry,but this was double that
rate and was considered high.

Rabbit syphilis is NOT fatal and is treatable with injectiblepenicillin which these rabbits have received and have all resolvedtheir lesions. URI in itself is not fatal
unless it goes into pneumonia. But of course it needs to be treatedeven in the earlier stages because it can progress and it can in itschronic state cause damage to the sinus and an uncomfortable livingcondition with clogging of the sinuses with discharge making itdifficult to breath through the nose. URI and pneumonia
rabbits are receiving appropriate antibiotics for their treatment andmost are back to normal or are doing better. We have a total of 7rabbits that died from pneumonia based on post mortem results and havehad no further deaths from pneumonia since 3/2/07.

The respiratory disease and the syphilis were the two most prominentproblems, again in only 25% of the rabbits. We did note that some groupfecals were
positive for coccidia which can be a common problem in rabbitries andis relatively easy to treat, but no rabbits appeared to be ill fromcoccidia, as in none were wasting away or had abnormal stools. Eachrabbit will be assessed individually for the need or not to treat thisafter we find out if the rabbits indeed will be
turned over to the SSHS. There were a smattering of otherproblems,overgrown nails that were excessive on about 30% of therabbits, some with excessive hair
matting (only in the Jersey Woolies) that has all be groomed off. Onlytwo with serious pododermatitis on their feet. We had 10 rabbits thathad corneal edema and some ulceration possibly from traumatic injuriesfrom cagemates nails or something that was in the cage they might havecome up against (small metal point on feeder or who knows). There wereNO rabbits with parts of eyes missing!

No animals were euthanized, nor to date do any need to be.

There were NO tumors! One rabbit had a large abscess that it hadaclimated to which has since drained and will be surgically removed ifthe rabbits are turned over
to the SSHS. He is not in any pain or discomfort at this time.

Here is the overall message I would like to convey. In my opinion thiswas not a rabbit mill, this was a breeder who had too many rabbits tomanage under poor
circumstances. Of course he was selling rabbits but I do not believethat producing maximum amounts of rabbits in minimum time withoutconcern for genetic health was his entire motive due to the highquality of the animals and the low rate of pregnancies we saw at thetime. I do not feel there was evil intent, but seriously bad managementin terms of sanitation, ventilation, watering system, help
needed, and lack of veterinary services which of course affected thehealth of the rabbits which is why they were removed. I am notdefending the actions of the breeder who was unable to implement theresponsibilities to his animals, but I am suggesting that making wildand inflammatory statements about him as a person and what his supposedpurposes were do nothing to serve the best interest of
getting some education out there on rabbit care. I am saddened anddisturbed to hear reports that ALL the rabbits were ill or that MOSTwere dying or so on, which is ABSOLUTELY NOT FACTUAL. In fact, it is tothe credit of the people that investigated this case that the animalswere removed before there were worse problems and it is a testament tothe high quality of rabbits he had the not more of them were ill.
 
Sorry to offend, my point was that the peoplewho posted sympathy or said he should get to keep and breed rabbits,only took the breeder at his word. They just listened to what he saidin the interview and blindly believed him. I am not saying I don't feelsorry for him, but you shouldn't believe everything he says or think heis being mistreated by the humane investigators. When people aregetting investigated or getting their animals taken away, there isusually a VERY good reason. It just really upset me at the time forsome members to say "it is not abuse" it just struck me as a veryignorant thing to say.
 
MaevePotter wrote:
Sorry to offend, my point was that the people who postedsympathy or said he should get to keep and breed rabbits, only took thebreeder at his word. They just listened to what he said in theinterview and blindly believed him. I am not saying I don't feel sorryfor him, but you shouldn't believe everything he says or think he isbeing mistreated by the humane investigators. When people are gettinginvestigated or getting their animals taken away, there is usually aVERY good reason. It just really upset me at the time for some membersto say "it is not abuse" it just struck me as a very ignorant thing tosay.
It's ok. No problem. :)RO is great for people to post theiropinions, so it's all good. I think it's just the wording that was usedwas sort of...abrasive. It think that's a good word to use.

Not that I want to continue this, but I don't think all people weretaking the breeder at his "word". If you watched the video, there wasother evidence that pointed to the fact that he wanted to helpthem, but was truly over extended beyond his means. I think therewasabuse (ie: the blind baby satins), but I watched the videoand noticed, although some bunnies were ill, many did look healthy(weight and coat wise). And the bunnies were sociable, which meant hemust have spent time with them frequently.

This is supported by the fact that the vet who examined them (as Haleyposted) said"98% of the rabbits I examined had NORMAL bodycondition." That means that he was feeding them a pretty good,healthydiet.And the vet even said "Here is theoverall message I would like to convey. In my opinion this was not arabbit mill, this was a breeder who had too many rabbits to manageunder poor circumstances," which was what most people in this threadWERE saying.

So, I guess what I'm saying is just don't assume that people are'blindly' following what the man was saying. They were just questioningthings, which is a good thing. If we didn't have people who questionedthings, we'd all be sheep. (I wish there was a sheep icon :D).

 
The Red Door blog said the man was asking for 25satins back. Personally, I'd be okay with that especiallysince Dr. Brown said he wasn't breeding intensively and the majority ofthe animals were in good condition. I think he'd be capableof taking care of that smaller number of rabbits, at least once he getsback on his feet financially.

For those not familiar with her, I just wanted to point out that Dr.Susan Brown is one of the US's most prominent rabbit vets and she isvery involved with rescues and the HRS. If she's taking painsto make sure people realize that this person is not an "evil millbreeder," then he most definately is not. He's just someonewho got in over his head.
 
While I do NOT condone abuse of any kind I dounderstand getting in over your head and suddenly going...crap now whatdo I do and feeling you have no where to turn. I dofeel for this man because I do believe he is attached to theseanimals. And while I think he is educated about them in someways he is also ignorant in others. I do believe he shouldget some of his buns back, but he should be monitored and be mandatedto keep his number of breeders under a certainnumber. I think sometimes as disgusted aswe get with people we do have to remember that they are human and whilethey mean well they do mess up. And while in thiscase it was warranted that he needed intervention and help there arecases where I have seen pet owners have serious problems withorganizations like PETA over things that should never have been broughtup.
 
Just to clarify, for one thing, I don't knowwhat to believe anymore. I know what I saw in the interview. I don'tknow if conditions were worse. What I do know is he did not admit thathe was in over his head. He thought spring selling would pick him backup and he could keep doing as he was. Sure, he knew about some thingsand yes he was ignorant about others. Some people, no matter how muchthey care about the animals, don't learn. If he could he would do itagain, he would end up pulling himself and the rabbits down. Its notthat he is evil, but he doesn't think he has a problem. I have an auntlike this (okay, so she doesn't breed her cats on purpose) but sheloves them and doesn't even have finances to take care of herself.

I do not think that he should be able to breed again; this would happenall over. in the interview he did not say "now what do I do?" but hesaid he could handle it, clean up on the weekend...

Yes, you have you opinions and I have mine...
 
Ok, I just saw this thread, and i would like to"weigh in' so to speak. I have never been in his rabbitry, but I havemet this guy, and seen some of his rabbits. He regularly attends, orused to now I guess, one of the shows I go to every year. I examined acouple of his bunnies, he had one I was interested in buying. All theones he had there, probably around twenty or so, looked well-fed andhealthy.
I think that he obviously has no clue about sanitation orthe spread of disease, but I will have to say-keeping an unheatedrabbitry clean in the winter is hard. Mine was really bad acouple of weeks ago, for the pure and simple reason that everything wasfrozen hard as a rock, and I wasn't able to clean it out. And believeme, I tried.
I also think that he is definatly in over his head, but I can tell youfor sure just from seeing him handle and talk to his rabbits at theshows where I have talked to him that he cares for his rabbits.
I agree with what someone said earlier, that letting him have say 25 orso, and keeping it below a certain number, would work for this guy. Idon't know for sure, but someone said that he had given up haingelectricity to spend the money of feed, and that he was driving to oneof his neighbor's house's and hauling water to take care of therabbits. That is a heck of a lot of work and sacrifice, and that sayscaring to me.
Yes, he has make some serious mistakes, and yes, he is in over hishead, but I really, really think he honestly cares. Is anyone fromcentral Illinois going up there on Saturday or Sunday? If so, I wouldlike to ride along and help in whatever way I can. Heaven knows, I canat least trim nails and move rabbits into different cages.
 
Just got this email the other day from Red Door:

"Hi bunny folks!
We have set up our turn at SSHS for Sunday April
1st. We may also go on the 15th as well, but we'll
have to see what groups have already signed up. If
you can go on the 1st, please email me so I can
pencil you into the schedule.

Ciao Bunny!
Toni V. Greetis
Rabbit Adoption Coordinator
Red Door Animal Shelter"

Let me know (on this thread or PM me) if you want to volunteer, andI'll be happy to send you the email address. :)Thanks!


 
Is there anyone else from around here that isgoing? I would like to go, but I don't really want to drive all thatway by myself. I could meet someone somewhere, partway.
 
gentle giants wrote:
Is there anyone else from around here that is going? I wouldlike to go, but I don't really want to drive all that way by myself. Icould meet someone somewhere, partway.
Where do you live? There's a slight chance I might be going, butthere's also a slight chance that I might be house hunting as well.I'll let you know for sure by tomorrow what's going on.
 
Anybody know anything yet? I am about 45 minutessouth of Champaign, BTW. I will give no more detailed directions- thereare to many self-proclaimed bunny nappers on here!
;)
 
According to the Red Door Shelter's blog, thebreeder won the appeal and will be getting the majority of his rabbitsback. That's quite a change from getting none ofthem. I wonder what happened? I'm a bit concernedabout him getting that many because he obviously couldn't afford tocare for them. Hopefully he'll be selling most of them off tocut down on his numbers.

http://behindthereddoor.blogspot.com/
 
I really wish they had only given him 20-25 backat least until they could be sure he didn't get overwhelmed again. Iwas going to go with WI HRS in April, but I got a note saying the tripwas cancelled because he got them back. As far as adoption goes, Ididn't quite understand, is he himself looking for homes for some or isRed Door keeping some and looking for homes?
 
wow, i am shocked... that they gave him thatmany back.... he may have truely loved his rabbits, but it seemed ithad gotten out of control... I seriously hope thatthey keep checking up on his rabbits and their care... i pray that wedont hear about something like the situation that he had happen anytimesoon.
 
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