Our Clan...now & always..

[Orchid]

Thanks Vanessa!

I'm glad I went. She is indeed a girl. She weighs a whopping 1 pound 15 ounces. The vet doesn't think she will grow to be bigger than 3 maybe 4 pounds.
She felt she looked alert, active and all. Said her stomach sounded and felt good. Felt good poo in there.
Said there was a lot of fur in her poo though.
Wants me giving her:
Papaya tablets. 1 a day.
1 cc of pineapple juice if she's getting really hairy poop.
She has Coccidia...
They put her on:
SMZ TMP .27cc twice a day for 14 days &
Bene Bac 1 gram for 15 days

The bill was 80 something for all the meds, exam, & fecal. I don't think that's too bad overall.

Giving her all that when we came home? Not fun.
She doesn't like the Papaya... Had to break it up & wait for her to chew.
The Bene ended up smeared on her fur on her face.
Sigh.
She was doing a bunch of that back leg flicking thing as she went around her pen making sure all her things were still there sort of thing.

I feel much better we went.
The vet said over all she looks great.
If course recommended spaying especially if she is biting already but I planned on that.
Her small weight worries me with that but we will cross it when we get there.
She did mention that if she's tiny for her breed and size. A real mini. They all oooo and ahhhhed on her lol

I have great pictures from today but I want to wait till I send them to the computer so they aren't uploaded sideways lol.

 

[lovelops]

So I was looking over old threads and things and came across one about BunnyBale. It looks like they have a retail store right by where this new vet is we will be going to. I might have to pop in when we go.

[email protected]
1-800-548-2899
2109-A Columbia Park Drive
Edgewood, MD 21040

Hey

Let me know if you go to the store and how it is. I might drive up there
and check it out and pick up some things for my little monsters!

Vanessa

 

[Orchid]

Hey

Let me know if you go to the store and how it is. I might drive up there
and check it out and pick up some things for my little monsters!

Vanessa

I called before I went out that way today. They had no idea what I was talking about. NAN distribution.
Bunnybale hasn't updated their website I guess in awhile.
The location in PA looks active but that's like an hour & 40 minutes from me.
I tried emailing to ask, but no one has gotten back to me.
That always seems to be part for the course.
Takes too long for them to answer.

 

[Orchid]

Medication morning - not fun.

I took my time cleaning up. Washed out the litter pans. Picked up every poo I could locate.
I exiled her to the living room. She makes me feel guilty lol. Looks longingly at her pen.
The vet said it's good to keep her moving and eating etc.
When she's in her pen and we're awake she hides.
If we have her in the living room she'll play and sleep and whatever.
Right now she's in a paper bag attacking the inside or something. Her head will pop out, she'll bump the top and disappear again.
Her pellets were in her water bowl this morning. Can't figure how she managed that one.

She completely freaked when I went to pick her up for meds. She knew. Ugh.
My thumb got chomped pretty good trying to get the Papaya in there.
That's everything till the SMZ again later tonight.
Right after she cleans her face like ugh. You human. You dare defile my fur! It's cute .

 

[Orchid]

So she's been real picky and not really eating her hay today. Sleepy and stuff.
Not a bunch of poo.
I called the vet....
They said try 5 cc of water every 4 hours.
If she's still not acting herself by morning bring her in.
Talking about fluids and another med for her tummy.

The said the amount of coccidia in her was crazy.

 

[JBun]

You probably need a pain med like metacam, and possibly a gut motility med, if her pooping has slowed down, though I'm not quite sure how that works with cocci being involved. You do want to ensure she stays hydrated, but you also want to keep her eating something too, if you can. The vet will probably give you a syringe feeding mix tomorrow. It may just be the slowdown and GI upset is from the antibiotics and cocci die off. Did the vet advise you to restrict the diet at all? Often a hay only diet is suggested for a rabbit with this. The increased fiber helps with the motility issues, and restricting sugars and carbs helps reduce harmful bacteria overgrowth problems. But this all won't matter until your bun is eating again on it's own.

Simethicone or infant gas drops, may be helpful, but there again it's hard to know what's going on with coccidiosis involved.
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/ileus.html

If the antibiotic doesn't seem to be working out, there is another med out there that seems to be much more effective against the coccidia protozoa. It's called ponzuril or toltrazuril, but it is pretty expensive. It may be worth asking your vet about.
http://wildpro.twycrosszoo.org/S/00dis/Parasitic/Coccidiosis_Hedgehog.htm
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Rabbits-703/2009/7/coccidia-rabbits-treating-ponazuril.htm

You may also want to ask if any clostridium bacteria was found in the stool sample, or you may want another tested. Clostridium can occur secondary to the coccidia, and needs to be treated with a different antibiotic(metronidazole). Also ask your vet about sanitation and what to use, to minimize the risk of reinfection.

I'm really sorry your poor bun is sick. Hopefully the vet can get you all sorted with the meds you need for your bun to get through this.

 

[lovelops]

How's your baby doing today? I hope she is improving. At least she was playing with the paperbag which is a good thing..
Keep us posted. She's and you of course are in my thoughts..

Vanessa

 

[Orchid]

So I have a moment to sit and swipe in my phone for a few minutes.

Last night ended great. She was running, playing, zooming back and forth . Up and down from the floor to the couch. I put a handful of hay in her pen turned around and it was gone. Gave her another.
I thought, this is good. Everything is going to be fine.
I had some things pop up that kept me up late. I slept in.

Got up around 10, cleaned everything up and was thinking about a few things while I was.
Like why didn't I ask for critical care? Why didn't the vet send me home with it..
I started getting annoyed thinking about it.
She didn't bother to come out and talk to me about the fecal test. Or send me home with the "reading" she said she was going to.
But she made sure to sell me papaya tablets.
I had to ask her to check to make sure she was a girl. Shouldn't she have done that on her own?
I dunno. The more I started thinking about it the more annoyed I got. The more mad at myself I got too. They didn't talk to me about disinfecting anything or prevention of reinfection...
So clean up was over this morning -
I'm thinking maybe I need to pick a different vet?
Med time. We get that over with.
No pineapple juice this morning. I decided not to give it.
And I couldn't get her to eat the Papaya anyway.

A little while goes by and I notice.
No poop. Her pellets looks remarkably untouched.
She looks dull, sad, droopy eyes and all. Sigh.

I cracked open canned pumpkin. She doesn't want it. I watered it down and syringe her a bit.
Encouraged get to eat hay, drink etc.
She already had her Bene Bac & gas drops.
She perked up. She did eat some hay a bit. Piles of cecals that look...too brown?
She's peed a bunch of times on the pee pad. It looks different. Cleaner almost. Not as Brown.
I still wasn't liking the look of things. I broke out the romaine. I did. She loves that stuff. I smeared pumpkin all over it. She ate it. Grudgingly but she did. So it was like pumpkin romaine salad.
That kicked off some hay eating, running around, and first pellet eating of the day.

She seems much better to me. Just tired now.
She's been flopping and rolling herself around in her litter pan.
At the moment she's lamp chopped on her carpet falling asleep.

I've been reading trying to understand how to make my own critical care.
How much to give when.
How much fluid intake she needs.
I think I have that... Maybe like around 5 tablespoons per day at least? Ugh I suck at math.
So her water bowl is full and I'm watching how much she's drinking on her own.
It is annoying to read about reglan...I have that in pill form. My daughter takes that for migraines. I wish I knew if it was necessary and if so how I could properly give it, but I don't so I won't.

The vet we saw did not restrict diet at all.
Wanted to maybe do iv fluids & a motility drug she mentioned over the phone when we spoke yesterday but was wishy washy like.
I'm tapped right now so either way we need to just push through & get by till the 4th.
I need to decide if we should switch vets. I'm not feeling very good about this Dr. Urie at the moment but maybe I'm just upset with myself.

Every morning seems sucky and suckier then the last till we push through and then things are better.

 

[Orchid]

Thanks for caring guys & checking in.

 

[Chrisdoc]

Just catching up here and a lot has happened. So sorry to hear she's not so well but you are doing a fantastic job taking care of her, she is very lucky. I tried Papaya tablets with mine and the didn't like them. I give them dried papaya as a treat an they love it. I would probably only keep the food from one day to the next and Jenny's idea of freezing is good. You must have a headache from all those questions going around in your head. You could try making a list of the questions you would have liked the vet to ask and have a discussion with her before you make a decision. Don't know if you have other rabbit savvy vets in your area. She's such a pretty little girl. Thinking of you both and lots of nose rubs from my boys

 

[JBun]

Yeah, I had my own recent vet visit and annoyance. I got the one med I wanted and felt I needed(though I wish now I had got a prescription and not bought from them), and was convinced to give another, I hated the vets manner, and felt like I was being gouged by the time I made it out of there. The meds were sold for ridiculous amounts, and the vet was condescending and dismissive. I was so annoyed by the time I made it out of there, that I almost wanted to go straight to a different vet, even though I really didn't need to at this point, to just rid myself of the experience.

By what you were prescribed and the other things recommended to give to your rabbit, it almost sounds to me like a vet with old school knowledge. Not always necessarily bad, but there have been a lot of advances and changes in rabbit medicine, and I would want my vet to be up to date with it all. Of course that doesn't always work either. The vet I saw was moderately current, and I couldn't stand her And will never go back if at all possible.

Pineapple and papaya are such debatable subjects. There are many people that swear that it works, but then there may be evidence that it doesn't. I've never used it and would never suggest using it, just for the fact that any rabbit with digestive issues is going to be extra vulnerable to excess sugars. It can be just the thing that harmful bacteria needs to grab hold. I worry enough having to use meds with a sugar suspension, I don't want to be adding any more sugars to the equation. I got curious and found a few interesting bits of info on some old RO threads. Keep in mind the one thread is quite old, so some things may be a bit out of date.
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f27/stasis-pineapple-juice-critical-care-74006/index4.html
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f14/another-tall-tale-enzymes-7199/

So rabbits with digestive problems and GI slowdown, need low sugar/carbs, lots of fiber/moisture. I've got my own bun having this difficulty now. The vet suggested antibiotics for possible UTI, but I wasn't really sure it was needed, but agreed anyways. Mistake. Now my bun has small poop and reduced appetite. And it's a long acting antibiotic, so I'm stuck with the consequences for at least a week. So I've had to drastically change what I'm feeding her in an attempt to keep her digestion moving and prevent full stasis setting in. She normally gets a small amount of pellets, a little bit of carrot and a little leafy lettuce, and unlimited timothy hay. To keep her digestion moving I stopped the pellets and carrot, feeding a lot more green leaf lettuce, changed her hay to a mature high fiber hay, and I've been giving apple branches. Her poops are slightly better, from being a fourth the size of normal, now they are about half the size. But she still won't eat very much, but something is better than nothing. So, I guess my point is that when you have a rabbit with GI problems and slowdown, you have to alter their diet to suit the problem and help correct it. Lots of fiber and fluids, and reduce or cut out carbs and sugars. I feel like leafy greens can be very helpful to get things moving again, so even though your bun isn't used to the romaine, I think it can actually be helpful in softening things up. Though you do have to be careful when a bun isn't used to it. If she will eat enough romaine and hay on her own, you may want to skip the pumpkin and pellets. You do have to keep close track of hay consumption though, and ensure she is actually eating it. But if she won't eat or hardly, then you do have to have something to syringe feed. I prefer critical care, but would do pumpkin over a pellet slurry.

Don't know if the Reglan is truly helpful, but I made sure to pick some up today just in case, even though the vet didn't really recommend it. More $ for the vet. I would rather give it even though it might not help, than not give it and have stasis set in, and later wish that I had. There are some instances when it shouldn't be used though, like if the rabbit has stopped pooping, until the vet rules out a complete blockage, as it is contraindicated in this instance. Might be good to ask your vet about giving it.
http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/GI_stimulation/metoclopramide.htm

Sucks having a sick bun, I know.

 

[Orchid]

Yeah, I had my own recent vet visit and annoyance. I got the one med I wanted and felt I needed(though I wish now I had got a prescription and not bought from them), and was convinced to give another, I hated the vets manner, and felt like I was being gouged by the time I made it out of there. The meds were sold for ridiculous amounts, and the vet was condescending and dismissive. I was so annoyed by the time I made it out of there, that I almost wanted to go straight to a different vet, even though I really didn't need to at this point, to just rid myself of the experience.

By what you were prescribed and the other things recommended to give to your rabbit, it almost sounds to me like a vet with old school knowledge. Not always necessarily bad, but there have been a lot of advances and changes in rabbit medicine, and I would want my vet to be up to date with it all. Of course that doesn't always work either. The vet I saw was moderately current, and I couldn't stand her And will never go back if at all possible.

Pineapple and papaya are such debatable subjects. There are many people that swear that it works, but then there may be evidence that it doesn't. I've never used it and would never suggest using it, just for the fact that any rabbit with digestive issues is going to be extra vulnerable to excess sugars. It can be just the thing that harmful bacteria needs to grab hold. I worry enough having to use meds with a sugar suspension, I don't want to be adding any more sugars to the equation. I got curious and found a few interesting bits of info on some old RO threads. Keep in mind the one thread is quite old, so some things may be a bit out of date.
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f27/stasis-pineapple-juice-critical-care-74006/index4.html
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/f14/another-tall-tale-enzymes-7199/

So rabbits with digestive problems and GI slowdown, need low sugar/carbs, lots of fiber/moisture. I've got my own bun having this difficulty now. The vet suggested antibiotics for possible UTI, but I wasn't really sure it was needed, but agreed anyways. Mistake. Now my bun has small poop and reduced appetite. And it's a long acting antibiotic, so I'm stuck with the consequences for at least a week. So I've had to drastically change what I'm feeding her in an attempt to keep her digestion moving and prevent full stasis setting in. She normally gets a small amount of pellets, a little bit of carrot and a little leafy lettuce, and unlimited timothy hay. To keep her digestion moving I stopped the pellets and carrot, feeding a lot more green leaf lettuce, changed her hay to a mature high fiber hay, and I've been giving apple branches. Her poops are slightly better, from being a fourth the size of normal, now they are about half the size. But she still won't eat very much, but something is better than nothing. So, I guess my point is that when you have a rabbit with GI problems and slowdown, you have to alter their diet to suit the problem and help correct it. Lots of fiber and fluids, and reduce or cut out carbs and sugars. I feel like leafy greens can be very helpful to get things moving again, so even though your bun isn't used to the romaine, I think it can actually be helpful in softening things up. Though you do have to be careful when a bun isn't used to it. If she will eat enough romaine and hay on her own, you may want to skip the pumpkin and pellets. You do have to keep close track of hay consumption though, and ensure she is actually eating it. But if she won't eat or hardly, then you do have to have something to syringe feed. I prefer critical care, but would do pumpkin over a pellet slurry.

Don't know if the Reglan is truly helpful, but I made sure to pick some up today just in case, even though the vet didn't really recommend it. More $ for the vet. I would rather give it even though it might not help, than not give it and have stasis set in, and later wish that I had. There are some instances when it shouldn't be used though, like if the rabbit has stopped pooping, until the vet rules out a complete blockage, as it is contraindicated in this instance. Might be good to ask your vet about giving it.
http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/GI_stimulation/metoclopramide.htm

Sucks having a sick bun, I know.

You are a wealth of information I am very grateful for. Thank you by the way. Really.

We have just fallen into the oddest routine at this point that I would love to figure out and break.
This vet is rather young to have old school opinions. She looked younger than me and I am 35.
The Dr. Gold there has a good review here on RO Boards....I just couldn't get to see him.
I thought this would be good to set up with them. I can afford their rates, they are about the same distance as the other vets, one in PA and one is DE.
Maybe I will stick with them but not see this Dr. Urie again.
I don't feel good about her. I really don't.

Sloane is doing just fine with the romaine. She isn't having diarrhea. What cecals she is leaving behind looks better today than they have the last few days. She isn't hunching or grinding her teeth in pain. She is perky now that I have her eating again.
It is the over night that is messing things up. I spend 2-3 hours every morning getting her eating and pooping again.

What is happening during those hours!?!

I hope everything works out okay with your bun. The meds, UTI and all.
I don't ever wish sickness on any bun or owner.
It is such a heartache and sadness.

 

[Orchid]

http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/GI_stimulation/metoclopramide.htm

Good read..Thank you JBun

Oh wow. There is no way I could figure how to do that.
My kiddo has 10mg pills and Sloane isn't even a full Kg....
I would need an actual script dosed out for me I think.

Reglan...
Dosage safe for use in rabbits: 0.5 mg/kg tid - qid, PO, SC.

 

[lovelops]

Reglan is a med personally I would be careful with. That is one of the meds that was given to my mother that had horrible side effects. I know people are going to say short term it's ok, etc, small doses... etc.. however... in seeing what it did
to my mother after long term usage, I would use an alternative medicine instead of reglan for rabbits and people.. this is just my two cents... it can be disregarded ... I just wanted to share..

Vanessa

 

[JBun]

You'd be surprised at how many young rabbit people have old school ideas for treatment. I would have expected different from a young vet though, but who knows. Maybe they still teach these things in vet school. Definitely if you don't feel comfortable with her, try the other vet.

I'm having the same problem with my bun. She seems to get better during the day, then night comes and in the morning she isn't eating again. It could possibly have to do with digestive cycles, inactivity and not eating much during the night, maybe with the timing of when cecotropes are released. Stasis is a long slow process to recovery. I'd forgotten how frustrating it was ullhair:

Yeah, best to leave dosing to the vet Though at this point, I don't know how much good reglan will be. I'm almost thinking some of the meds might be causing it to continually worsen, at least for my bun. I've had issues with probiotics causing GI slowdown before, so not sure if it might be that or the metacam or reglan. I'm tempted to stop the probiotics myself, since it's debatable whether they are really effective. It's very possible the antibiotics are preventing continued recovery for your bun. I know they are making it quite difficult for my bun to get better.

 

[Orchid]

Last night I tried moving Sloane into the hallway & my bedroom. Thinking like maybe she doesn't like being alone or the smaller pen etc.
So I put down towels on the wooden floors, blocked off getting under the one side of my bed and set her up.
Everything seemed pretty good.
Till random moments in the night lol.
She grew bold & dared to cross the floor & went around the other side & got under my bed. I slipped on cecals jumping up & man they smell!!!
A couple of times she woke up pulling on the nic panels trying to move them. Twice I had to get to get her out from under the bed.
Her poop was better than it has been.
Who is to say why.
I was thinking today.... She fights me more when I have to give her the SMZ TMP than say the Bene or gas drops.
She ate her romaine great again. It's really a jump start to her morning.
After that she goes right to her hay, eats for a minute, flops and throws herself around in there & than takes a nap.
It's snowing here.
I need pee pads & more romaine :/
I'm ever so tired of typing out things on this phone.

 

[lovelops]

It sounds to me like having Sloane in the hallway near you is better! She seems more active! It does sound to me like she doesn't like to be alone and feels more comfortable being near you. At least she's perking up and sounds better! At least to me from what you posted.

It's been raining like crazy at my end of MD.
I'm sorry to hear you and Sloane are getting snow!

Vanessa

 

[Orchid]

Ran out for pee pads & romaine. No pads at the store. Ah well.
Kiddo said when she went in to check on her at one point, she found her on my bed looking out the window. I think that is rather cool.
Problem is once she's up she can't really get off my bed.

Got ammonia. Sprayed everything.
Pen, floor, toys.
Threw out the wicker basket.
Washed her pen shelf towels. Etc
Took away her carpets for now. I think it's easier to wash towels than clean a carpet for.
She really doesn't like the hallway.
She was fine once we made it back out to the dining room and living room. Had more romaine, ran around, threw in some binkys.
She seems to like laying on the hardwood floors just not walking on them.

So do I sound like a total nutter when I say I counted her poop over the last 3 Days?
Saturday she was around 350 poops. Same on Sunday. So far today she's at 250. It is very tedious work counting poo.

 

[JBun]

Just make sure to rinse everything sterilized with the ammonia, thoroughly. It is a chemical, and you don't want your bun ingesting or breathing it. Carpets are a hard one. I'm not sure they can be sterilized, but the vet may know of something. Or maybe steam cleaning would work? How's she taking the loss of her beloved basket?

Lol. Not a nutter. I haven't resorted to counting yet, but I do examine them pretty closely. You fit right in here. We're all poop obsessed on RO

 

[Orchid]

I washed the litter pans, toys, food, water dish etc all like 4 times after the ammonia.

These aren't normal carpets. The gray ones are the crap home Depot cheep ones you buy for 16 bucks. Thin. You know. I moved them, sprayed under, washed the floors, misted the carpets.
Same with the slightly thicker space carpet in the living room.

She has been looking for her basket