Conan the Bunbarian & Xena Bunnier Princess

[Troller]

Date III

I decided to take the critters for a short ride, well the ride ran about half an hour more then intended. I don't know if that affects the bonding, if longer rides as a scare tactic is impacted negatively due to them getting 'settled' because of the length of time but nothing that can be done about it. Today my wife wanted to be part of the date, so she was designated treat giver. The date itself went better then Date II, the head butting started early and then for the large remainder of the time they went their separate ways. Could be because Xena focused on the wife and treats, while Conan was busy trying to escape. Can't say there was any breakthroughs, but the vibe was a bit more subdued. Though when they we're together you can tell each is strongly vying for dominance. Conan nipped, Xena tried boxing, but nothing came of it cause we were there to intervene. Maybe I'm being to handsy and not giving them enough time to establish the pecking order but I really don't want anything bad to happen.

So 3 dates in two days, 15 minutes at a time. I'll do one more later today (rather tonight). Two tomorrow, and then I'll be working so it will be one a day. Then again if the wife is involved I could do two a day. If I see no progress in a week I'll either take them to a completely neutral territory or call in the big gun and ask the local shelter for assistance. In my unprofessional mind I think it's going well. I think their a typical duo and so it will just take time is all. I just hope I can pull it off in two months, before I leave on vacation.

 

[holtzchick]

Don't worry, you're right, it is very typical bonding behavior that they are exhibiting. It should subdue in a while, I would actually just keep doing the dates on the kitchen floor. I see no need to stress them, they're just trying to get used to each other. Maybe keep the dates a little shorter say 10 minutes but with great behavior as opposed to 15 with some nips.

The biggest obstacle with my buns is the nipping so I understand where you're at. They will eventually sort it out but it definitely will take time. You might be able to get them bonded before you leave for vacation, just keep at it. I know it's tense when you're trying to ref the dates, you seem to be doing a great job though!

 

[Troller]

Date IV

Last night's date was shortened to 10min. Behavior between the two remained generally the same though the head to head and nipping we're spaced throughout instead of a solid few minutes. Seems Conan nips, Xena boxes, is how they break their groom me stalemate.

Thanks for the advice and encouragement Michelle. I'm not in a hurry to bond, the vacation deadline is a hopeful deadline, I personally was set mentally for it to take many months since Conan never got to choose his bun wife. My wife will be around when I'm gone so she can continue the process while I'm away, I just don't want her to have to deal with the stress is all. I'm going slow and steady.

 

[agnesthelion]

Michael I was excited to get updated since I'm in DC I didn't know this was going on. Anyway, I have downtime in the hotel right now so I caught up.

Anyway...sounds pretty typical and I do see a lot of positive things going on. After all, it could be much worse. I do agree eith Michelle and avoid stressing just yet. Not the biggest fan of that unless buns are all out fighting.

Some things I did different than you (not saying one is right or wrong, just some suggestions to consider I switched cage bowls and toys and litterboxes for a few days before the first date and kept rotating them constantly.

Also, not sure how big your kitchen is but sometimes too big an area causes issues. I blocked off probably 1/4 of my bathroom.

It sounds like grooming "war" you can try applesauce on the head.

As far as nipping I wouldn't allow any nipping. Mounting can be allowed a little because even bonded buns mount, but nipping should never be a behavior that's acceptable.

As far as date lengths....how far into them does the nipping/boxing start? Because my first couple dates were seriously maybe a minute or two. I just didn't want to even give them a chance to get there. Maybe shorten dates, pet the entire time, keep them from doing anything negative and see if you have progress that way too. I'm from the mindset that you want to have every meeting positive in the beginning so that's what they associate with each other.

But anyway, again just some things I did but I really think things are going good. I will say the boxing does concern me a bit. That stance is usually the "let's fight stance" so definitely keep an eye on that.

I think 2 months is a doable goal. Slow and steady wins the race

 

[Troller]

Date V

Had help from the wife this morning. All went well I think. They danced around each other a bit and Xena was annoyed (thumped and grunted) at Conan's pushyness but really at least the incidents of actual confrontation have perceivably lessened. Conan actually laid down and relaxed, a first for him and I don't believe it was to show off. The both appeared to be a little less wary so I think that's a good sign as well.

Thanks for the advice Lisa. Just wanted to mention out of five dates I only used the car once and I don't think Im going to do it again unless things take a turn for the worse. Xena only boxes when Conan starts agressing with nips or this one time when she felt cornered and I quickly put a stop to it. I also cut off nipping as soon as I catch it so I am zero tolerance of that. I would go a smaller space but the kitchen is not that big, the bunnies are big, and I just can't maneuver in something smaller.

I am curious however when did you guys start introducing food, toys and a litterbox? I did the litterbox on the first day and they fought over it so I took it away. I'm afraid to introduce anything at the moment as I don't want them to fight over it.

 

[agnesthelion]

Oh yes....I sometimes forget you are dealing with flemmies and not two small ones like mine I'm sure the kitchen is fine!

As far as food and litterboxes, for me personally I didn't introduce those until we moved to NONneutral territory. I read one time that litterboxes and food etc are not neutral....so consider them territory in the sense that you don't want to bring those into the equation until you are ready to move them both to shared territory. That really resonated with me so I stuck to that advice and it worked.

I do want to add that litterboxes definitely bring out territorialness. Even with my two, who never even spat once, when the boxes came into the picture Archie definitely claimed one and you could tell it was a big deal between them.

 

[agnesthelion]

Oh yes....I sometimes forget you are dealing with flemmies and not two small ones like mine I'm sure the kitchen is fine!

As far as food and litterboxes, for me personally I didn't introduce those until we moved to NONneutral territory. I read one time that litterboxes and food etc are not neutral....so consider them territory in the sense that you don't want to bring those into the equation until you are ready to move them both to shared territory. That really resonated with me so I stuck to that advice and it worked.

I do want to add that litterboxes definitely bring out territorialness. Even with my two, who never even spat once, when the boxes came into the picture Archie definitely claimed one and you could tell it was a big deal between them.

 

[Chrisdoc]

It does sound positive and I think slow is better sometimes. Kitchen likes it´s ideal for them, we small bunny owners sometimes forget how big yours are. I saw a massive one today in the newspaper, 3 stones and 8 pounds, that is one big bunny, posted the link on my blog.

i definitely think you´re going in the right direction so it´s just patience and perserverance. Look forward to the next update.

 

[Troller]

Date VI

This one went very smoothly. At first neither one wanted to come out of their carrier and I didn't rush them. There were a few tense moments that ended with Xena thumping or grunting away but it did appear Conan was less pushy, looked like he only went to nip once and the rest if the time wandered around. The best moments came when they sniffed nose to nose at each other then quickly parted, and another moment where they laid down noses less then 2 inches away while I pet them. I decided that was the golden moment and put them away after. So in 3 days, 6 dates that went fairly well.

Chris, 3 stones and 8lb...that's a big rabbit. Was it a Continental or German Giant? I'll check you blog to find out. Mine's respectfully are 13lb and 12lb. My biggest fear is that Flemmies tend to get fat and the last thing I want to do is cut down on their life span. I truly love these little guys.

Again, thanks for the info. One video I watched mentioned they should be a little bit hungry so treats will work better. I'm not so sure that's one to follow. Tried it at first and I think it might have made Conan more irritable, especially since its been a few months since I stopped the free flow pellets and rationed him. I've kept it at 15 minute dates since I started that way and will cut back if things to amiss but since there's incremental progress why stop. Plus, it's a major production to take those two out and set up the kitchen to be blocked off from rabbit escapes so why stress myself the time. With all I've read and watched it's sad there wasn't an exact magic formula for this

 

[agnesthelion]

Sounded like a great date! That is great they went nose to nose and parted. And then laid down. Awesome. Perfect time to seperate!

Oh yes I remember the work involved on dating. Even though my two are small, their dates were two floors up from where their cages were and I had to carry them seperate, block for bathroom, get treats.....sometimes to have the date last 5 minutes! Haha. Its worth it in the end.

Best of luck for things to continue on a positive path for you!

 

[Troller]

Forgot to mention my birds. Oberon is well, though I wish the wife would stop calling her Oberona. Sure she laid some eggs but she still my guy...err girl. However I want to bring up my little klutzy Titania...lord if an animal ever lacked a survival instinct it's her my little dog bird.

Titania likes drinking from our glass, whatever we're drinking she wants a part of it. Well that's fine for water but coffee and other things are a no no, but it doesn't stop her trying. Well today we had an unattended cup of coffee and instead of waiting for us to tip it over for her to drink she tried to get at it herself. Bad move, since the cup is so narrow she fell in with her head upside down submerged and she couldn't get out. Luckily we were there the impatient little walking/flying disaster and my wife pulled her out by her tail feathers. We worriedly watched her for the next hour until we were pretty sure all was fine. Just to test later I tipped a glass so she could drink the water and she wanted no part of it. Sadly though Im sure her hard learned reluctance is only temporary...

 

[Troller]

Date VII

Definitely took a step back. They were slightly more hostile though a few more nose to nose sniffs took place. She boxed, he nipped, and both were being wary. Oh well can't all be great dates I guess. First time my wife saw the negative of bond attempts and I feel bad she took it sadly. It's going to happen from time to time. Hopefully tonight's date is better. I decided to stick them in the others dirty cage for a few hours before I clean the cages up. Hopefully it will have a positive end result.

 

[holtzchick]

Recently, I've found that my bunnies were having trouble with multiple dates a day. If they have one date a day, their behavior stays under control but I found with multiple dates Hippogryff turns into a huge grump and just grunts!

It's something to think about, but it's all normal behavior.

 

[Troller]

Date VIII

Did not go so great again. Nose to nose stare downs with it ending only because Conan nips at Xena's nose. The mood also felt off, not like yesterday where things felt easy. Xena is thumping more and at times seems agitated while Conan appears to be grumpy. I hope tomorrow goes better.

That's a good suggestion Michelle. Even HRN says to do one a day during work weeks and twoce during weekends but I thought that was because of lack of time. Doesn't hurt to try I guess.

 

[holtzchick]

Date VIII

Did not go so great again. Nose to nose stare downs with it ending only because Conan nips at Xena's nose. The mood also felt off, not like yesterday where things felt easy. Xena is thumping more and at times seems agitated while Conan appears to be grumpy. I hope tomorrow goes better.

That's a good suggestion Michelle. Even HRN says to do one a day during work weeks and twoce during weekends but I thought that was because of lack of time. Doesn't hurt to try I guess.

It would make sense, although I think it could also be attributed to the fact that during the work week people seem to be more stressed out than on the weekends when they have ample time to spare (most of the time) and the buns pick up on that energy.

Don't sweat it though, I've seriously had horrible dates where it's ended closer to full out fighting and now it's nowhere near that. Seriously, it's really hard to get down about it, especially seeing your two buns, and thinking how the heck is it going to ever get better. It will, just have faith

On my rescues forum, theres actually a member who has been bonding his rabbits since November and he had to take a break because it was so bad, last night, they finally started grooming each other for the first time and he's going to try a joint pen next week :headflick:

 

[agnesthelion]

Step backs are normal so don't stress too bad. Easier said than done as I would be like your wife and so sad about it. Michelle is definitely the one to encourage sticking to it....she's been SO awesome with her two

I do agree with one date a day. I think most of the literature recommends that and to move to two dates if all is positive.

I also think following your gut with your own rabbits and learning the tiny little signs really is a key factor too. As what works for one pair may not for another. And also, I know you are limited on location but sometimes an area change of where dates are taking place can help too.

 

[Troller]

Date IX

Today seemed more relaxed. There was a bit of a squabble, mostly when Xena felt cornered (though she cornered herself) but what I found fascinating is they set themselves nose to nose and held that stance for near 5 minutes, and then broke off with a brouhaha. Sure there was a nip and an angry hop over but they both seemed less agitated. Conan sprawled out at one point, not a new thing and of course I got to wonder if it was the negative kind of show off relaxed. Xena grunted and thumped but she's a grumbled anyway. I just hope Im not dealing with two dominates. Wife thought it went well too.

This time I put hay in the center, but neither of them seemed to interested in that. Yeah, I also went back on what I was thinking and did and plan to do this evening a 2nd date. See work weeks are no big deal for me because my job is to just observe and stay awake so I'm hardly every stressed. Bored maybe, but not stressed. In fact Im kind of a hard guy to stress. Anyway, so I feel as if I can do two dates no problem, but I'll give it one more day before I start limiting that. Thursday I'll probably be to busy for two dates anyway so depending on how it goes to tonight I'll see if Wednsday I keep it to one. Please don't feel as if Im ignoring the sound advice, I'm just feeling it out is all.

And yes Lisa, I plan to change the venue this weekend, at least for one date. I'll either do it in my mom's kitchen or my friends house. Of course that involves a car ride so some stressing buns might occur. Or I might for everyone's ease's sake do it in a small patch in the bedroom. I'm only not crazy about that notion since the bedroom is carpeted. Thanks for keeping up guys, I really appreciate the input.

 

[Troller]

Date X

Best date yet. Since it was time for greens I decided to combine their greens in one very large plate and put it in the center of the kitchen. Conan nibbled and then left, Xena munched for a bit. Conan seemed more relaxed then ever (I hope it's not some malady, his poop looked a bit funny and I made a post about it but his gut sounded good) and decided to just meatloaf to the side. Either Xena got upset he was loafing at a nice spot or that he wouldn't pay her much mind because she twice went over to him and thumped by his face. At the end I guess she felt really relaxed too because she meatloafed less then a foot away. It looked legit, not a show off. I ended it when they had a nose to nose confrontation lasting a minute but peacefully both pulled away.

I have a suspicion why it went so well. During the day I put them in the others cage so it might have settled them. But what I really think might have done it was I had the dish washer running and I know it had Xena a little spooked. Conan has a poker face heh heh, for a rabbit, so I just couldn't tell if there was a reaction but again, he just seemed calmer throughout.

 

[holtzchick]

Hhaha, I'm telling you it's because you brought the greens out

Many sites, as I'm sure you've read many times, say to offer distractions such as toys and food so as long as your bun doesn't have aggression issues. I've had SO much success with offering food and treats!

Great to know they had a good date! Keeping my fingers crossed for tomorrow!!

 

[agnesthelion]

This date sounded awesome! Isn't it funny how little things like a dishwasher running or greens on one plate can change things up? That's how tedious I believe bunny bonding to be. One little variable can set things ahead or back....and it's different for every pair!

Kinda repeating here but I really think the squabbles/set backs have been VERY normal and I'm not seeing anything that would indicate these two won't bond eventually