Chase - UPDATED 5/22/10

[Amy27]

Thanks Bo B I really hope we can to.

myheart, she stopped bleeding after a minute or two of pressure again. I am not sure about it making her more susceptible of infection or abcess.

I think I can say it was a fluke or something happening 2 days in a row but if it happens again tomorrow Chase is going back to the vet early. She's a pretty large rabbit and we move where she gets the fluids. Something had to have changed because there was never even a drop of blood before.

 

[naturestee]

That's very strange. Are you always sticking her around the shoulders/neck area? Have you tried farther back? When I was shown how to do sub-q fluids, the tech put it in near her hips, sort of above the hind legs. It was pretty far back, but that's where the skin was loosest as the bun (Sprite, RIP) had tight skin.

 

[Amy27]

Usually we put it from her neck back to about the middle of her body. If we go back from her neck a few inches we usually go to the side because there is more skin. I just don't get why the bleeding has started now. What changed from a week or 2 ago when she was getting them.

 

[krsbunny]

I have the book your vet wrote in my library. As vet texts go, it is one of the easier to understand and I like how it is arranged if you are looking up a particular condition. However, I also really like the variety of content (including some great info on diet and nutrition) in the Harcourt-Brown Textbook of Rabbit Medicine.

Kathy

 

[tonyshuman]

Well, Kathy said earlier that rabbits getting frequent sub-q's in one area might grow more blood vessels in that area (vascularize) in order to make absorption of the liquid into the blood stream faster. It can take a few days to weeks for blood vessels to grow like that. Maybe it would be good to try another place like the hips for the next few weeks?

It must be terrifying, and I would be worried that blood loss would be dehydrating. I can't find any information that Lasix leads to bleeding (ie that it interferes with the blood's ability to clot). My guess is just that the capillaries and vessels in the area are changing, and that makes it hard to determine where to give the sub-q's.

I hope we can come up with a solution for this...[[hugs]]

 

[krsbunny]

Thanks for the reminder about Chase being on Lasix. I went to one of my "drug sites" (rxlist.com) to look at side effects.Systemic vasculitis (inflammation of the blood vessels)is listed among the potential side effects. I would definitely discuss the bleedingwith your vet and mention this as a possible side effect of the Lasix. I cannot remember if Murray started having more of these problems after he was put on Lasix, but it is possible.

Good luck.

Kathy

 

[NorthernAutumn]

No brilliant ideas from me... just wanted to tell you, Chase and Little Bunny I'm thinking about you guys :hug:

 

[Amy27]

tonyshuman, I don't think Chase is getting her injections in the same spot or even close to the same spot in order for it to be the blood vessels growing. I guess it would depend on whether the vessels get bigger just where the fluids are given or if they would get bigger from where the fluid goes also. If they get bigger from where the fluid goes I think that could be the problem. She gets a lot of fluid and gravity moves it down. So maybe it is the blood vessels.

Kathy I spoke with the vet before I saw your message. If it happens again this weekend I will call her and tell her that Lasix can make the blood vessels inflammed. When I spoke with her I asked her if it could be the Lasix and she said no. She said it just happens sometimes and to look at Chase's ears and belly and if there are any bruises to bring her in. She also said if it keeps happening I can bring her in sooner then friday. So we will see what happens tonight.

Thanks NorthernAutumn it always makes me smile when you include the Little Bunny.

 

[Maureen Las]

Actually I thought I postedlast night . I looked up Lasix last night and one of the side-effects (butI don't think a verycommon one ) is bruising and easy bleeding . I really don't know why he would be bleeding other than that .
That may not be the reason but I don't kniow why else.

What are all the other meds that he is on?

 

[Amy27]

Thanks for responding angieluv. Right now Lasix is all she is on. She was on Metacam until about a week ago so I don't know if that would still be in her system. She didn't bleed tonight so I will cross my fingers.

I did check Chase's ears and stomach for bruising which is where the vet told me to check. I didn't see any bruising and her stomach still is missing most of her hair from surgery so I would hope I would have seen something if it was there. The vet also said the stomach is where the bruising would start before the ears.

 

[Maureen Las]

When you are giving the injections are you sure that it's going under the skin and not into the muscle ..the needle would go sideways..

some people think of pulling up the skin as a tent and inserting the needle into the opening

I have had to do bicillin with Beau (just stopped them last week ) for several months and his skin is so loose that I had a lot of trouble not shooting out the other side all over him...

I guess that they are all different but just wandered if the needle is going into the right place.

 

[Maureen Las]

I think we have a video in the library but i don'tknow which one...not sure

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wkSuUID2WA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wkSuUID2WA[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10XODWMV3uI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10XODWMV3uI[/ame]

 

[tonyshuman]

I thought that the side effect of easy bruising was from anemia, but I don't know. I think there would be other issues from the anemia if she had it. The side effect of inflammation of the blood vessels does make sense, although the sites I read didn't have it. Anyway, it's something to ask the vet about for sure.

 

[Amy27]

The vet tech usually gives the fluids. There have been a hand full of times I have done it. I always tent the skin and put the needle in sideways. I hope that we are getting the needle in the right spot. The vet tech has experience doing this and 2 out of the three times she has bleed it was the vet tech giving them. Chase bleed again today. So for 3 weeks she never bleed a drop and now out of the last 4 days she has bleed 3 times.

When this happens should I put something on where it is bleeding? The vet tech applies pressure until it stops. She wants to put peroxide on it but I thought I read somewhere it is dangerous for bunnies. Chase cleans where ever it is so it would have to be something safe.

I am definitly going to mention the side effect of inflammed blood vessels to the vet.

Chase is scheduled to go to the vet on Friday. Should I take her in sooner since this has happen 3 out of the last 4 times? Or should I just wait till friday. When I spoke with the vet on Friday she thought it was normal and wasn't concerned. I don't know what she would do if I took Chase in. I don't want to over react and rush her there but don't want to sit and wait if she bleeds for the next 6 days while she gets them.

Thanks for your help everyone.

ETA: I watched those videos and that is how we give the fluids.

 

[Maureen Las]

Amy27 wrote:

The vet tech usually gives the fluids. There have been a hand full of times I have done it. I always tent the skin and put the needle in sideways. I hope that we are getting the needle in the right spot. The vet tech has experience doing this and 2 out of the three times she has bleed it was the vet tech giving them. Chase bleed again today. So for 3 weeks she never bleed a drop and now out of the last 4 days she has bleed 3 times.

When this happens should I put something on where it is bleeding? The vet tech applies pressure until it stops. She wants to put peroxide on it but I thought I read somewhere it is dangerous for bunnies. Chase cleans where ever it is so it would have to be something safe.

I am definitly going to mention the side effect of inflammed blood vessels to the vet.

Chase is scheduled to go to the vet on Friday. Should I take her in sooner since this has happen 3 out of the last 4 times? Or should I just wait till friday. When I spoke with the vet on Friday she thought it was normal and wasn't concerned. I don't know what she would do if I took Chase in. I don't want to over react and rush her there but don't want to sit and wait if she bleeds for the next 6 days while she gets them.

Thanks for your help everyone.

ETA: I watched those videos and that is how we give the fluids.

I would take her in earlier than Fri mainly for your own sanity. it would be hard to give sq's if the rabbit bleeds. You are right about the hydrogen peroxide ; shouldn't use it ..not everyone knows that.

I 'm not sure what can be done about this if it's from the lasix and she needs it but the vet may be able to do bloodwork ( not sure if they do that extensive bloodwork on rabbits though)
You may be able to find an area where she doesn't bleed as frequently and use that general area for awhile although it is best to rotate. Where did you do it when she didn't bleed?

 

[Amy27]

I am really trying to hold out until Friday. Just so the vet has her two weeks of 150ml of sub q's and Lasix everyday. I am not sure if I am going to make it. Chase and I are both so tired of all this. Tonight Chase made a noise when the vet tech poked her and it just broke my heart. I am going to try and wait to go as long as I can. Only 3 days of sub q to go to make it till Friday.

The peroxide thing just tells you how awesome this site is. I thought I had read that somewhere on here. I am glad I didn't use it now. Thanks angieluv for confirming that I didn't make that up.

We have always given the fluids going from her neck to the middle of the body. If we go farther down there isn't alot of room to tent the skin. We do go down on the sides of her body also from the neck to the middle of her body. We have been doing it the same as always. I didn't think it was the case at first that she was getting more blood vessels as Kathy said but the last few days we have been really watching and there really isn't a lot of room to poke that you haven't used before. So I am think now that that is the problem. Chase just is getting tired of it. I am just crossing my fingers that Friday a change will have been made and we can go to every other day.

I am also going to take the holistic advice that has been offered here to the the vet Friday. I am also going to call the holistic vet tomorrow and see what they can tell me so I can talk to my vet about accupuncture on Friday.

 

[tonyshuman]

Yes, I have heard that peroxide is too harsh for rabbit skin, and in particular abscesses. Some old-school vets recommend washing out the wound with peroxide which is VERY painful. It wouldn't be my first choice as a disinfectant for bunnies, which would be betadine.

Sounds like you will be well prepared for your vet visit on Friday, and I bet you feel like it can't come soon enough. Good luck, and get well wishes to all of you.

 

[Amy27]

Thanks tonyshuman.

I just need to vent, you don't have to reply. I am just hoping I will feel better after typing it out.

Chase and I are just DONE with all of this. She bit me today she was so upset about her sub q's and left a mark, luckily it didn't break the skin. She is just over it as I am. She is sad, I think because she misses her bunny friend who still growls and tries to bite her through 2 cages. I just want BOTH of my happy bunnies back.

It has been almost 4 weeks since Chase started sub q's. I will not continue to give them everyday. I will try to work with the vet and will do every other day but everyday for this long is to much. If the vet thinks that won't work then they need to go up there with a catheter and flush it out. If I had done that 4 weeks ago I may be ahead right now. Everyday is just to much. It took along time to give Chase her fluids tonight and I think it was 3 pokes. I am just so upset that they can't do more. I would do anything pay anything if I just knew what to do.

Then I called the holistic vet near me today and the lady laughed, that is really what I need when I am already over all of this. I asked her if they did accupuncture on rabbits because there website says they do accupuncture. She said no. I asked if they saw rabbits at all thinking may be they would have ideas of other holistic approches. She laughed and said no we only see cats and dogs. I really wanted to ask her what was funny about it. Do rabbits not deserve that type of care? But I figured I was to emotional and over reacting so I just said ok and hung up.

Ok after the book I wrote I do feel better. I just want to find something that works. It is just so hard for me to understand why this can't be corrected.

 

[Amy27]

Ok I just looked at the website of the place I called it says they provide services to pocket pets. Does that include rabbits? Here's the website http://www.northworthingtonpetclinic.com/aboutus/servicesandbenefits.html

 

[naturestee]

Usually if theydo "pocket pets" they also do larger ones like rabbits and guinea pigs. I can't believe that woman laughed at you!:X