Chase - UPDATED 5/22/10

[Bo B Bunny]

I'm so sorry. I hoped she would look better

 

[naturestee]

I've heard of Lasix being given to rabbits a number of times, mainly for heart problems causing a build-up of fluid.

You can check for dehydration by lightly pinching the skin like you would to give sub-q fluids. Release it, and if it quickly goes back to it's normal shape then the rabbit should be hydrated enough. It shouldn't be too much of a worry with the fluids Chase is already getting.

:hug:

 

[krsbunny]

Lasix was one of the meds Murray was on toward the end of his battle with cardiomyopathy. I don't recall how long he was on it nor the dose... but it was not one of the meds he had a bad reaction to (and there were some).I would not be afraid to give it again if a trusted veterinarian recommended it.

I have just recently started hearing aboutLasix being usedfor treatment of sludge... it is not something I would personally jump into imediately for sludge or use in minor cases ... but you are certainly notjumping in immediately, nor is your case minor.If I were in your position, I would definitely give it a try.

I so totally understand what you are saying about Chase being poked and prodded. Trust that you know her best and know whether she wants to continue treatment. In 1997, when Smokey was diagnosed with cancer, we took heroic measures and spent tons of money because it was clear that fighting was what he wanted to do. Thisincludedtreatments that I would probably decline for myself.When we were trying to decide whether to try a second ($250/treatment) chemo drug, I asked my vet "What would you do if he were your bunny?" I will never forget her answer: "If he were my bunny, I would have to stop because I would be out of money." At that point, we were able to keep trying, but with that statement Dr. Bradley taught me that it was OK to say "that is something I cannot afford." My life has changed since then, and I know that next time Imay have to say that... and it will be OK.

Almost exactly ten years later, Dante made it equally clear that he would rather die than continue aggressive treatment for an ear abscess. Again, I had to let go of what I thought "should" be done and listen to what he wanted.

Sit with Chase, ask her what she wants, and trust what you hear. Feel free to PM me any time.

Hugs to you and Chase.

Kathy Smith

 

[NorthernAutumn]

I'm sorry to hear that you and Chase are struggling right now... I don't have any brilliant ideas... It's out of my scope. Was just going to mention the holistic option as a last-ditch effort that's non-invasive.
ray: Thoughts of peace for Chase, Little Bunny, and you, Amy.ray:

 

[Amy27]

Bo B Bunny, Thanks I will just have to hold out hope that the next appointment will be better.

Thanks naturestee, I didn't realize you could check with rabbits the same way you can with humans. I don't know why this med is freaking me out. But I will check Chase everyday to make sure she isn't dehydrated. I really hope the fluids help. I think it is just the idea of giving it to a rabbit who doesn't drink. Crossing my fingers though that this gets her back into the habit of drinking.

Kathy, your post made me feel so much better. Knowing that you used the med and didn't have any problems really helps me feel better about it.

I really appreciate you sharing your story about your two buns. Chase gets really upset when she has to go to the vet, get her meds and her sub q's but she perks right back up as soon as it is over. She runs from me a lot because she is afraid I am going to poke her or shove something in her mouth but the rest of the time she is running around playing. After having both of those stones I imagine she feels pretty good. I think that is my answer. She is still happy most of the time and when she isn't she perks up as soon as the bad thing is over. She is still loving life. I just hope I can give her the chance to live a full life that she deserves.

 

[Amy27]

NorthernAutumn you posted while I was typing. I still haven't thrown out the idea of holistics. I am just not sure if I am ready to give up on this vets ideas. I am afraid if I went to a holistic place I would have to try those suggestions 100% and would like to wait until this vet is out of ideas. I just really hope her ideas work. I guess so far I should feel lucky a stone isn't in there yet. I really appreciate your thoughts.

Thanks to who ever updated my thread title.

 

[NorthernAutumn]

By no means would I suggest switching right now... I was just saying that as the last-ditch attempt when all the vet options are exhausted.

Glad to read that Chase is still bopping around when she's not getting her meds. At least she's having some fun... methinks she needs something naughty to shred, just for fun?

 

[krsbunny]

Oh, DUH! I can't believe I didn't think about the holistic approach.

Magnesium comes highly recommended by a friend of mine for helping with sludge. Raw pumpkin seeds are high in magnesium and if Chase needs more magnesium he may eat them willingly as a treat!

Also, from my research, the calcium/phosphorus ratio is more important in diet than the actual level of calcium. Orchard grass hay, according to some sources, actually has more phosphorus than calcium, so you might consider offering that along with timothy. Again, I think Chase will gravitate toward orchard grass hay if that is what is needed.

Parsley and dandelion are natural diuretics. Hydrangea root, gravel root,
marshmallow, and uva ursi are also good herbs for the urinary tract.

Kathy

 

[naturestee]

Amy, if you can find a holistic vet in your area, they should be able to work with your current vet. It's pretty common to combine traditional meds with herbal remedies as long as drug interactions are checked before adding anything. Kathy knows a lot more about this than I do.

There's some info in our Library, including links to lists of trained holistic/alternative treatment vets. You might also be able to bring in info to your vet and ask her opinion on whether they'd interact with her medicine or what the proper dose should be.

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11898&forum_id=10

I wonder if you could set a certain time each day to be for loving on Chase. Pet her, give her a treat, maybe learn some basic massage techniques and use them to bond with her. If it's the same time each day, she'lllearn that she doesn't have to fear being given meds at that time and can relax more.

Edit: If you are giving the meds orally and she really hates it, you could try hiding it in a food that she likes. I use canned pumpkin to hide meds (usually Benebac or simethicone)for Fey. Luckily her husbun Oberon hates pumpkin, so there's no worry of him stealing her stuff. After Dora's spay, I hid her Metacam in a bit of Benebac because she loves that so much. Mushed banana or no-sugar-added applesauce are other possibilities.

 

[NorthernAutumn]

Hi Kathy;
We were kicking the idea of holistics around on another one of Chase's threads... I found a list of holistic vets...
Here's the other thread with all of our input in it... maybe there's something in there that you would notice as standing out?

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=43104&forum_id=16

I was also wondering about acupuncture... funny, the number of things that acupuncture can clear up...

(sorry about the bold font... my keyboard is malfunctioning)
Autumn

 

[krsbunny]

Re: the holistic approach. IMO, this doesn't have to be an either/or decision. The answer that works best is so often "both/and."

Dr. Allan is very supportive of my interest in offeringa few herbs along with drugs ... and in some mild cases we try just herbs. She does, however, urge caution on the subject of how many new things we introduce at a time (if we're doing many drugs, we stick to only one or two herbs).

I would offera fewraw pumpkin seeds and uva ursi leaves... and perhaps some dandelion leaves ... and see about orchard grass hay. Let Chase pick and choose what she needs.

Oh... and I would definitely consider acupuncture if it is available in your area and you can afford it!

Kathy

 

[Amy27]

Thanks guys. You are giving me a new perspective to the idea of using the current vet and a holistic one. There are two in my area. I will call them and see what they have to say. I know the one offers accupuncture according to their website.

Chase does get some orchard grass now. I usually mix it in with the timothy. I will have to try and put them separate in her cage and see if she favors one over the other.

I think Chase would love the pumpkin seeds, she loves to eat. Can you buy raw pumpkin seeds or would I need to buy the pumpkin and take them out? Would the kind of pumpkin I would use to cook be the correct kind to get the seeds? Chase does get a little bit of parsley and use to get some dandelion leaves but I cut a lot of it out because of the higher calcium levels. I will try to get her to eat more. She is easy going about her greens and I think she would actually enjoy more of the variety she use to get. Uva Ursi leaves what is that? Is that something you can buy at the grocery store?

I really don't know a lot about holistics I will have to research accupunture. I am not really sure what it does for you.

naturestee thanks for giving that link to the library. I don't think I have ever seen that thread before. Chase is getting the Lasix in pill form so I am able to hide that. The metacam she seemed to know the smell a mile away. I agreed that stuff was gross. Hopefully now that her meds are going to be hiden in a treat it will make things a little calmer for her.

That is a good idea about finding a time to just give her some cuddles and make sure I do it at the same time everyday.

You guys gave me lots of great information. I am off to do some reading now on the links and research accupuncture.

I am also going to copy some of the threads from here and fax them to her current vet to let her know what I am looking into. I am open to paying for accupuncture if it may help.

Thanks everyone.

 

[krsbunny]

Another thing I did with Murray when he had sludge was buy some 100% cranberry juice concentrate and syringed about 2 cc daily.

This and all of theother herbal/mineral suggestions I made earlier should be discussed with your vet before implementing, as she may know a reason one or more of the ideas is not a good one.

One thing I can suggest thatis completely safe is something I call "energy shifting" ... someone brought up something similar on the previous thread when they said, "Only positive thoughts." I know from experience that is just not possible in a situation like yours... or mine... or probably anyone's! But when youstart worrying orthinking about what might go wrong, try this process:

1. Notice what you are thinking.If it is worry or you are focusing on the outcome you fear, don't beat yourself up and allow the thought to finish.(My own process is, at this point I say "OK.")
2. Take a deep breath (or two or three).
3. Now focus your energy thinking about the outcome you desire.Inthis case, try to visualize the sludge dissolving.
4. Finally (and I find this is really important) focus on something you have to be grateful for (having Chase in your life, for the lessons she has taught you) and express that gratitude in whatever way is comfortable for you spiritually.

If you feel an "energy shift", direct some of that good energy toward Chase... My bunnies respond really well to this.

Kathy

 

[krsbunny]

You should be able to find raw pumpkin seeds(sometimes called pepitas)at an organic grocery store (here it is Wild Oats). Some of my guys like them, others give me that "what were you thinking?" look, still others gobble them some days and turn their nose up at them others.

If the store you find raw pumpkin seeds sells "bulk herbs", you may be able to get Uva Ursi there. We have two Wild Oats stores here ... one has them, one doesn't... I buy lots of my herbs online from http://www.oldtimeherbs.com/... I buy "cut" roots and leaves rather than than powdered and let my guys choose what they need. My original holistic vet (Dr. Randy Kidd, who has written books and articles on the subject) told me that animals will usually willingly eat what their bodies need ... and it is especially easy with herbivores <gr>.

Kathy

 

[tonyshuman]

You can try "tenting" the skin and seeing how quickly it goes back to normal. This is done with all types of animals to check for dehydration, and I think on bunnies you do it behind the ears on the neck--unless that's where you do the sub-q.

 

[Maureen Las]

This is a lot of great info !!

Thanks so much Kathy
I sure hope that a dual approach helps Chase

I would have one concern that is based on my discussing herbs and alternative meds with my western physician
I take flax seed oil, magnesium, malic acid for fibromyalgia which I have read alot on myself.

When I try to talk with my western MD he tends to write down what I take and I know that he has no clue what I'm talking about. He doesn'thave any knowledge of alternative meds ; I can tell. ..and I think that he thinks it's all harmless which it isn't

I would be concerned that many western trained vets would have no idea what is safe to use with what.
which places a lot of responsibility on the person to do homework themselves.

 

[Amy27]

Kathy thanks for all your suggestions. I try to be positive and happy around Chase, I try not to let her see me stressed out. Though a few times at the vet I have been more emotional then I would have liked to have been. I know Chase is very intune with my emotions. If I cry or hell she will thump at me. I try really hard now that I know this to never show emotions around her, like let her hear me cry or talk in a loud tone. I have never seen an animal react to emotions like she does. So your positive thoughts that you talked about might really help Chase.

I tried separating the orchard grass and timothy grass and she seems to prefer the timothy. I think part of it might be the way oxbow packages their orchard hay. It is more in circles then straight and Chase seems to like the straightness of hay. I am going to try Kaytee Orchard hay and see if she likes that better.

tonyshuman, thanks for the information. I do give Chase the sub q's behind her ears in the neck. I am trying to wait until the fluid absorbs and then check her since the neck is the easiest area to check.

angieluv I think you brought up a great point. That is something I worry about also. I don't think I am knowledgable enough to know either. I can try and resource as much as possible but there is only so much out there.

I think what I am going to do is take the information about pumpkins seeds and Uva Ursi to the vet on the 27th and will talk to her about that and the accupuncture along with seeing a holistic vet. One thing I am worried about is if one vet is trying 2 or 3 things and the holistic vet is trying 2 or 3 things I won't know what is working and what isn't. I am not sure what the vet will want to try after the duiretics and sub q's so I think the appointment on the 27th would be a good time to talk about it. But I think starting something else before then would make it hard to pin point what is and is not working. I do know the duiretics are not making Chase drink. She hasn't drank anything in about 4-5 days. Which is normal for her.

I am curious what your point of view is in trying several different things from 2 vets at the same side and trying to pin point what is or is not working. Do you think it is best to wait until the regular vet has had her chance to try what she thinks will work?

Thanks for all your help.

 

[Maureen Las]

Let's wait for kathy to respond on this question

 

[krsbunny]

Sorry.... I meant to respond to the comment about traditional medical people (human and veterinary) not knowing about the interactions between drugs and herbs. That is a very valid concern and I failed to mention originally that Dr. Allan pretty much leaves it in my court to research interactions between drugs and herbs.

The best optionmight be if your traditional vet is open to consulting back and forth witha holistic veterinarian. If youhave confidence in your own intuition, you may be able to diffuse any "ego conflict" that might arise about who had the final say in decisions (that should be you and Chase).

I agree that your next appointment is a good time to talk to the vet about trying a couple of herbal things next ... either in addition to what is being done now or as a replacement (e.g. if Lasix is being discontinued).

Regarding the reaction to the Orchard Grass hay -- if Chase doesn't go for it then it is probably not the right thing for him. Try to relax, but don't stress about it <gr>. Yeah, easier said than done. "Go with the flow,"and enjoy your time together, whether measured in days, weeks, months, or years.

Kathy

 

[Amy27]

Thanks for responding. I will talk to the vet and I really hope she is open to a holistic vet. She seems very knowledgable which is a good thing but I have found that a lot of things I have suggested she has shot down. I hope she doesn't do it with the holistic vet. If she does I will have to decide what is best. She is very caring and I know last time she felt awful that she couldn't give me good news. I will try to use that in my favor to talk to her about other options. I know she wants what is best for Chase. I really wouldn't feel comfortable though having those types of medical decisions in my court. I just don't know enough and would never want to risk her life. How did you do it with your vet Kathy?

I am not to concerned with the orchard grass. I think if she eats it great if not then she still has her timothy hay to eat. I have learned over the last few weeks that I don't have control over what she eats and drinks. Though that drives me crazy because if she would only drink. But I have learned to let it go because if she isn't going to do it she just isn't going to do it. And it won't do either one of us good to try and force her. She has enough stuff being forced on her already.

With all this stuff she has been through and all the meds and fluids she is getting, it makes her sound like a sick bunny but really she is feeling good and loving life, unless it is time to get sub q's. Which she is over in about 1 minute. I am just thankful to have her happy and energetic. If I have to give her the sub q's for the rest of her life which is what the vet thinks I am fine with that. As long as she gets a chance at life that every bunny deserves.