Chase - UPDATED 5/22/10

[tonyshuman]

I thought we were supposed to avoid oxalates but I don't remember why. Something else to hunt down...
[line]
Okay so the percentages above are daily value percentages right? What if you don't feed it daily lol. I don't get this. Anyway 55g of dandelion contains 10% DV. 1 ounce contains 5% DV and 52.4 mg. 100 grams which equals 0.435 cups is 19% and 187mg. OMG I was feeding like several cups a day. That is a lot on top of the other veggies and pellets.
While I am at it I will do some other veggies.

Cilantro 1/4 cup 4g has 2.7 mg 0% DV.

Read leaf 1 outer leaf 17g 5.6 mg 1% DV

Endive 1/2 cup chopped 25g 13 mg 1% DV

Parsley 1 cup 60g 82.8 mg 8%Dv

Those are all for raw veggies and the figures are just for calcium.

[line]This is interesting, but where do you get what the daily requirement for calcium is in mg? And when you say it is x% DV, is that DV for bunnies or people?

 

[tonyshuman]

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=56821&forum_id=48&highlight=oxalate

This says that calcium oxalate is something you do want, and if you feed veggies high in calcium but low in oxalate that's bad, like the cruciferous veggies (broccoli and related).

also:
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=54750&forum_id=48&highlight=oxalate

And AHA on that first link it says that the daily requirement for bunnies for calcium is 5-10g/kg, so if your bunny is 1 kilo (2.something lbs), they need 5-10g of Ca daily.

 

[Amy27]

Gloria thanks for sharing your story. I am curious where you got your potassium that you give Tazzy. I may have to look into that. I try to give my buns banana's for potassium but Little Bunny still doesn't like them.

Claire, lol once I get started reading and researching I can't stop. I learned a lot of great information though. I really appreciate you sharing that article with me.

In regard to metabolic bone disease, my vet has assured my that neither of my rabbits have it. She stated if they did, she would see in on the x-rays that they do of the bladder. On the x-rays you can see their spine and several other bones. I don't know much about metabolic bone disease to know if x-ray is the way to diagnosis. I may have to research that. Lab tests have also come back normal. Not sure if they would show anything if a rabbit had metabolic bone disease.

When I say DV it is DV for humans. It was on a nutritional site for humans. So I am not sure if it really helps me. I really wish someone would publish something about calcium content of veggies for rabbits and how much they should get. That would make things soooo much easier.

I was also confused about the changes of % of calcium for a rabbit. I kept reading it over and over again thinking I was missing something.

Thanks Claire for posting how much calcium a rabbit should get a day. But how do you figure in their pellets when pellets go by a percentage not g.

This really wouldn't be so hard if someone would just do all the conversions and post how much calcium a rabbit needs and what to feed them. lol

For now, I have stopped feeding dandelion. I am still going to continue to give pellets as I feel they will provide vitamins that I may be missing when feeding veggies and hay. But I will only feed 1 ounce a few times a week.

 

[tazzychan]

Hey Amy

I get the potassium citrate from my vet, she usually has to order it special for me

 

[Amy27]

Thanks Gloria. I will have to ask my vet about that when we go in a month.

 

[tonyshuman]

Well, I found this site, and it seems that for adult humans ~1g (1000mg) of Ca is needed a day. That's a lot less than bunnies, especially on a per kilo basis: the typical estimate of adult human body weight is 70-75kg. I'll look for info on our veggies in terms of calcium content in mg.

 

[tonyshuman]

I am beginning to wonder if that "All about rabbit diets" reference means that the feed you give bunnies should have 5-10g of Ca per kg of food, not that a bunny needs 5-10 g of Ca per kg of rabbit body weight.

 

[tonyshuman]

Um wow, check out this reference:
http://www.rabbit.org/journal/3-5/calcium.html

I'll copy and paste the relevant parts:
"However the minimum daily requirement for calcium of a medium sized rabbit is about 510 milligrams. This amount of calcium is contained in less than two ounces of commercial pellets or 1 cup of turnip greens."

510 mg=0.51g

Edit: Blech they list calcium content in order of increasing Ca, making it hard to find your food. I will re-do the list, alphabetical by veggie.
Calcium Content of Raw Vegetables
10 mg Alfalfa sprouts
32 mg Arugula
28 mg Asparagus
46 mg Beet greens
82 mg Borage
42 mg Broccoli
32 mg Cabbage
30 mg Carrots
28 mg Cauliflower
68 mg Celeriac
44 mg Celery
18 mg Chard, Swiss
180 mg Chicory greens
74 mg Chinese cabbage
218 mg Collards
16 mg Coriander (cilantro)
40 mg Cress, garden
103 mg Dandelion greens
59 mg Dock
30 mg Egglant
26 mg Endive
21 mg Jerusalem artichoke
94 mg Kale
137 mg Kale, Scotch
34 mg Kohlrabi
309 mg Lambsquarter
38 mg Lettuce, looseleaf
20 mg Lettuce, Romaine (per 100g serving)
58 mg Mustard greens
315 mg Mustard spinach
32 mg New Zealand spinach
82 mg Okra
78 mg Parsley
62 mg Peas, edible pod
6 mg Peppers, sweet
24 mg Pumpkin
15 mg Pumpkin leaves
28 mg Purslane
19 mg Radish seed sprouts
28 mg Radishes
65 mg Rutabagas
56 mg Spinach
26 mg Squash, summer
20 mg Squash, zucchini
105 mg Turnip greens
39 mg Turnips
40 mg Watercress
per 1 cup serving, unless otherwise noted

I haven't heard of all these veggies, and I know some bunnies won't eat some of them (squash for instance).

 

[tonyshuman]

And for pellet, to determine how much is in a certain serving, do this calculation:
amount of serving in g * (percentage Ca written on bag, in this case 0.6-0.8%)*10=amount of Ca in that serving in mg

To start with serving amount in oz, which may vary because oz are sometimes used as a measure of volume (ie if you use a tablespoon to measure or a measuring cup), and sometimes used as a measure of weight (if you use a scale to measure). I don't know what 2 oz (volume) of pellets weighs--it might be 2 oz (weight), it might not be.
anyway:
amount in oz (weight)*28.3*(percentage of Ca in food)*10=amount of Ca in serving in mg

28.3 is a conversion factor.
So if 2 oz of pellets weighs 2 oz, and it's oxbow organic with avg Ca content of 0.75% (between 0.6-0.9% is what's written on the bag) that would be
2*28.3*(0.75)*10=424.5mg

Wow that means they get almost all the Ca they need from 2 oz of pellets.

 

[Amy27]

Claire, I am sorry I didn't respond earlier. I missed that the thread was updated.

I can't thank you enough for doing those calculations for me. I would have never figured any of that out on my own. I really really appreciate it. I have never had so much useful information to go off from. I can't thank you enough.

So that is 2 oz of pellets a day correct? I give about 1 oz 3 times a week. But with their veggies they get daily. I think that would make up the difference.

I just wanted to share this semi success. People who have followed Chase know that I have tried everything to get her to drink water. I have tried every flavor and every type of water container, I have tried everything. Well tonight, I was going to give Chase a piece of banana for the potassium that she needs due to the Lasix. I decided I would try to mash the banana up and add a little water. Probably only about a teaspoon of water. She drank/ate about half of it. I was so excited. I am thinking if I give it to her daily, she will learn to like it more. Then I can decrease the amount of banana and increase the amount of water. I am hoping the end result will be that I can flavor a whole bowl of water with banana and get her to drink it. Does anyone know any banana flavor stuff I can use without having to mash and mix a real banana in it?

Also, Little Bunny will not eat bananas. I have tried everything. Lasix really rids the body of potassium so I would like to know she is getting some. I won't give them broccoli or rasins due to a bad gas attack I had with Chase. Is there potassium in pellets. I read the bag and it didn't say anything about it. Any other ideas on what I could give her that is low in calcium but high in potassium? I am hoping Little Bunny will only be on the Lasix for a month. Her case was milder so I am hoping it will be gone and then I am not going to give her the Lasix anymore so I am not to worried about it. I don't think one month will hurt her if I can't find something high in potassium she will eat.

 

[tonyshuman]

I have bought imitation banana flavoring in the spice aisle before, that might work! Sounds like you're doing some classical conditioning there--and it should work, if you go slowly.

I bet they get enough calcium, I'm just worried about getting too much. I think you give a good amount of pellets. I am wondering if the rest of us should give less, especially with the veggies many of us like to feed.

I will have to look into the potassium thing. I know some people give their bunnies potassium citrate, which I would think you can probably buy at the human pharmacy vitamin aisle, but you'd have to be really careful about the dose...

 

[Amy27]

Thanks Claire. I will check out the spice aisle tomorrow and see what I can find. I am also going to call the vet to see if they have banana flavors they use when they compound meds. I will ask them about the potassium when I call too.

I agree with you that I think it is good for everyone should look at how much calcium they are giving their bun. I know a lot of people on here feed at least 2 oz of pellets a day plus veggies.

 

[tonyshuman]

I just had my bunnies in for their annual today and the vet called saying his calcium was a bit high. She linked me to this info:
http://www.chincare.com/HealthLifestyle/DentalCalC.htm
Look under the heading "Vitamin C Articles"--there is a link to a site at chimere.org. That's what she told me to look for, but that site is no longer up. Luckily, the chinchilla website also has a copy of the info from the broken site there as a word document. It lists the calcium and vitamin C content of many veggies, and also says which have oxalates.

I will definitely be taking a look at my bunnies' daily calcium rations! Tony is edging toward middle age, so I don't want to put stress on his kidneys and urinary tract.

 

[Amy27]

I will have to take a look at that site. I need to print all this off for my vet.

I am just curious, was the calcium level high in the urine or from a blood test?

 

[tonyshuman]

Blood test. It was 16, they said, and the desired range is 4-12. This is in alignment with what Medirabbit says (5.5-12.5 for total Ca++ in mg/dl http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/Hematology/blood_chemistry.htm )

 

[Amy27]

I took the bunnies back for their one month check up.

Little Bunny has been drinking as much in one week as she usually does in a whole month. So I was pretty sure her sludge would be gone. But its not. The vet wants me to give sub q fluids. 100-150 ml everyday for 2 weeks and then every other day for two weeks and then I take her back in. I tried to give the sub q fluids tonight and failed miserably. I could get a good tent in her skin because she was tightening her skin or it just wasn't loose. I had problems even grabbing any skin. Since I couldn't get a good tent I couldn't get the needle in right. I either didn't get the needle in or it would go throw both sides. I finally gave up. I felt so bad for her but she was so good. She never moved or jumped when I poked her, even when I tried to move the needle around to get it in the right spot. I will try again tomorrow. The vet tech I use to have come help me moved. So I really don't want to call her as she doesn't live as close anymore but I may have too.

The good news is Chase's sludge decreased a lot. We cut the Lasix meds in half from what she was getting. We are hoping that will maintain her bladder sludge to what it is. She will probably have to be on it for the rest of her life.

Please send Little Bunny and I some good vibes that we can get this sub q fluid down. I was trying between her shoulder blades but may try lower tomorrow to see if I can get more skin to tent. She is also so fluffy around her shoulder blades, I can't really see if the needle is in.

 

[NorthernAutumn]

I am very happy for Chase's good news, Amy That's wonderful!

I have no injection experience whatsoever, but would it be possible to give da Little Bunny a backrub/noserub before doing the subq? Maybe help her relax a bit?

I am sorry that she is going through this as well... sending you and your girls good vibes for healing ray:

P.S.: Can't believe almost a whole year has gone by since I last wrote in this thread! I just went back and re-read everything... it all seems like just yesterday... I have kept you guys in my thoughts for a long time though...:hug:

 

[Amy27]

I try to talk to her in a nice calm voice and give her nose rubs before and during when I can spare a free hand. Even though she behaves well, I can tell she is really upset. Her eyes get real big and she just looked at me the whole time like why and the heck are you doing this to me. I tried to cover her eyes up once because her staring at me with those big sad eyes weren't helping but she didn't like it so I dealt with the stares.

Tomorrow I am going to go to the store and get some cranberry juice and see if I can flavor a bowl of water and get her to drink more that way. But she is already drinking so much.

 

[NorthernAutumn]

:hug: I wish we had someone there in Ohio to help you... Is there a local HRS you can hit up for an extra pair of hands?

If cranberry doesn't go down the hatch easily, is there another favourite fruit? A bit of vanilla sometimes works too (not sure if she is keen on vanilla, though?)

(Was just thinking.... maybe boil some carrots in a pot of water, and let the water cool? Then try? Carroty water might be OK... Just throwing this out there.)
:hug: We're pulling for you both up here! Lots of vibes! ray:

 

[Amy27]

Ohhh that carrot idea is great. Little Bunny is very very picky. I can't get her to eat any fruit. Besides greens, pellets, and hay, she only eats carrots and crasins as treats. I will have to try the carrot thing. I think I will try that now lol. I tried some banana flavoring I got for Chase and she ran from the bowl and wouldn't go near it.

Thanks for the positive vibes. I am glad to see you back Autumn!