Bucky’s Golden Years

[Diane R]

Can't believe it's already Thursday! Ellie should be coming home Saturday evening, and I've been wondering where the best place to put her pen would be? I have a couple options, either our bedroom or the computer room (wires would be bunny-proofed with NIC panels or something similar). I'd rather have her in the bedroom because of the computers, though, just to completely eliminate the wire issue. BUT Bucky free roams our bedroom now, would he view that as intruding on his territory? Not like they would be out together for awhile anyways - Bucky's 6 weeks post surgery is Tuesday, although Ellie has been spayed I am still a little worried he might be too obsessive over her due to his hormones. She'd be in her pen while he roams, and then I would just close his door while he's done so she could come out, too. Or bring her into the living room to let her exercise.

I don't think the living room would be a great place for her pen, it's close to the kitchen (worried about fumes - not sure if they're as sensitive as parrots to these things but I'm nervous!), and our cat will be out there. He's still scared of buns, but he IS a cat. And he jumps on everything too, so I'm worried about keeping him out of there when we're not around. I'm also a little nervous the others in the house might not be keen on that... It was a pain just getting my hurt quail upstairs... but then again I literally got a text from my boyfriend as I was typing this about how he was petting her and she was purring for him!!! Hehe he's a keeper. So funny how a little quail can get us wrapped around her claw!

So I guess it boils down to: could I put her pen in our bedroom without causing too much issue? I expect the territory peeing, puppy pads will save the day again! I also have a huge waterproof mat for dogs that I was using for Bucky for awhile, but ended up switching him to the puppy pads because he likes to go to the bathroom in the corners.

I am certainly not an expert on bonding but as they are both neutered I think I would put her in the same room (separate pen of course) as him. When you start bonding you need to do that on neutral territory where neither bunny has been.

 

[Diane R]

@Mom to Minx thank you, I agree! Can't wait for her to be home!

I have one more question to post in here if any of you might know - sorry my brain is everywhere thinking about bonding! I also browse the RU forum, based in the UK, and they seem to have very different bonding techniques than what I see on here? Well, maybe not VERY different, but it seems instead of bonding dates, they recommend putting them in a neutral space for a long amount of time until they show signs of being able to be alone together so that the buns don't have to re-establish their hierarchy each time they meet. What are the pros/cons of each method? I thought that the USA and UK were pretty similar in our knowledge of animals, so seeing this difference is throwing me for a loop.

There are several bonding techniques people use in the UK too. Some people swear by putting the bunnies together in a small-ish space on neutral territory and then just sit with them until they are bonded, gradually increasing the size of the pen. Of course this means sleeping on the floor with them or people working shifts Really hope it all works out for all of you!

 

[itsronni]

@Diane R I think I will be putting her in the bedroom! It would be good for them to get used to each other. It’s interesting how many different takes there are with bonding - I have taken a nap next to Bucky on the floor before, but I’m not sure I’d make the entire night! Thank you, I hope it works out too. Will be setting up her pen tomorrow.

 

[JBun]

It's just different bonding techniques. One's a slow process,, the other is fast track. Then there's also considering whether to start with the normal smaller bonding area or bonding in a larger space. Usually here in the US it's slow track and smaller bonding space initially (though I'm not sure why that's favored here). But every rabbit is different, and what works for one pair of buns may not be the right technique for another pair of buns. You just have to give whatever method you chose, a try. Then adapt as needed, as you observe their behavior and if things aren't progressing in a positive direction. This can be hard for someone new to bonding, which is why I prefer 'love at first sight' matches, especially for carers new to rabbits and rabbit behavior.

When attempting bonding, it's important to have a good understanding of the different bonding techniques, but especially understanding what the signs of escalating aggression are, so you can intervene before a fight breaks out. So I would suggest reading up on those things, and watch different bonding videos so you can get a feel for what positive and aggressive behaviors might look like.

https://rabbitsindoors.weebly.com/bonding-bunnies.html
http://cottontails-rescue.org.uk/information/bonding-bunnies/
https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Bonding_rabbits_together
https://www.rabbitsonline.net/threads/when-to-intervene-rabbit-bonding.104770/
https://www.rabbitsonline.net/threads/language-of-lagomorphs-is-it-gone-forever.105436/
https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Understanding_your_rabbit
You can sometimes set up a new buns pen in another buns territory without too many issues. I did it with a new boy bun that I got for my lone bun that had lost her bun companion the year before. It didn't cause any issues, except them both being very excited and interested in each other, and theirs ended up being a 'love at first sight match'. But other rabbits may react differently.

Territorial marking around the pen is very possible. You do want to make sure the pen is high enough neither bun can get over, and that there won't be any chance of biting through the bars. But if there's active aggression from either, I would suggest choosing another location for your new bun. Near a kitchen is fine for buns, except some buns don't like the smells of cooking, especially meat. I had a bun that would constantly thump at me whenever cooking was going on

What I would do is let them greet each other at a neutral location when you first bring her home, with her in the carrier or a cage. Just something in between them to prevent any biting or a scuffle breaking out. You're just trying to get an idea of their initial reception of each other before you place her in the pen you've set up in his area. If they aren't showing any signs of obvious aggression, then I would go ahead with putting her in that temporary pen set up for her. You also want to watch out for her being scared and make sure she starts eating and drinking well that first day. If she isn't and is acting scared, she may need to be in a quiet location away from your boy bun, to get settled in and used to her new home first.

Wherever you put her, it's usually a good idea to keep a new bun in their cage that they're used to and feel safe in for the first couple of days. Other familiar things can be used if they don't come in a cage. This helps them feel more secure and safe being in their familiar environment, even if it is small, and will help establish good litter habits, before expanding their area. You can even cover the cage with a light sheet or blanket for an especially nervous bun, to help it have a more tunnel like and safer feel for them.

https://rabbitsindoors.weebly.com/bringing-your-rabbit-home.html
Then once you have her settled, you can gauge how she's responding to you and to your boy bun. If she's approaching the cage bars to look out with curiousity and interest, then it's a good sign that she's not scared and is responding well and likely will do well being around you and your bun.

6 weeks post neuter is usually enough time for the hormones to have faded, to begin initial bonding introductions. Though sometimes waiting 8 weeks or longer is needed for some rabbits. There will still be some dominance humping that can occur when bonding. You just don't want to allow excessive humping, chasing, or circling to continue, as that can quickly escalate into a fight.

I would get her settled in first. If they aren't both showing signs of eager interest in each other, I'd suggest giving her several weeks to get settled and comfortable in her new home, before starting bonding. If it's not love at first sight, the bonding process can be a stressful thing, for them and you, and you just don't want to be overly stressing a new bun in a new home, as this can put them at risk of stopping eating and developing GI stasis. You want to make sure they're eating well and settled well before starting a potentially stressful bonding experience.

 

[itsronni]

@JBun oh wow thank you sooooo much!! I've been looking for that Language of Lagomorphs FOREVER!!! I'm so happy it was saved, what a great resource!! I
l might print that one out and put it in the bunny room. The Wabbit Wiki is also stellar - so much great info in there. I'll be going through all of the articles you linked today!

Thank you for mentioning the cage, I think I would've moved her right into the x-pen if you hadn't brought up that up. I'll let her settle in her cage for a few days - do you think it'd be alright if I attached the cage and the x-pen so she would have a larger space if she feels up to using it? Or would that be too much for the first couple days?

I'd like to follow their lead while bonding for sure, see how they are and then I can better predict which method would work best for them.

 

[Mom to Minx]

@Mom to Minx thank you, I agree! Can't wait for her to be home!

I have one more question to post in here if any of you might know - sorry my brain is everywhere thinking about bonding! I also browse the RU forum, based in the UK, and they seem to have very different bonding techniques than what I see on here? Well, maybe not VERY different, but it seems instead of bonding dates, they recommend putting them in a neutral space for a long amount of time until they show signs of being able to be alone together so that the buns don't have to re-establish their hierarchy each time they meet. What are the pros/cons of each method? I thought that the USA and UK were pretty similar in our knowledge of animals, so seeing this difference is throwing me for a loop.

I only have one bun so I can’t speak into this but I’m sure others will jump in with their excellent expertise! Minx is about all I can handle…she keeps me on my toes!and zooming!

 

[itsronni]

@Mom to Minx I’d love to see some pics of her if you have any! Is she the one in your profile pic? She sounds like a firecracker!

 

[JBun]

@JBun oh wow thank you sooooo much!! I've been looking for that Language of Lagomorphs FOREVER!!! I'm so happy it was saved, what a great resource!! I
l might print that one out and put it in the bunny room. The Wabbit Wiki is also stellar - so much great info in there. I'll be going through all of the articles you linked today!

Thank you for mentioning the cage, I think I would've moved her right into the x-pen if you hadn't brought up that up. I'll let her settle in her cage for a few days - do you think it'd be alright if I attached the cage and the x-pen so she would have a larger space if she feels up to using it? Or would that be too much for the first couple days?

I'd like to follow their lead while bonding for sure, see how they are and then I can better predict which method would work best for them.

If you look at the 'Bringing your rabbit home ' link, it goes through that basic process. Generally I'd suggest keeping her primarily in her cage the first 2 days, though some adaption to this plan can be tried out in some cases. This general recommendation is to help a new bun establish litter habits, and also to give a familiar safe place if they're nervous. But this also depends on what each rabbits response is to their new home, so sometimes things can be changed a little, depending on that response.

You can always adapt the plan as you see how she's responding to being in her new home. If she seems curious and not at all nervous, then letting her out into the pen is an option you can try and see how she does. But if she starts peeing outside the cage/litter box, then you may want to hold off on expanding that space too quickly. But if she's consistently using her cage/litter box, then definitely you could let her use the pen as well. Though do make sure your buns biting each other through the pen bars isn't a risk, as you don't want to end up at the vet with a nose or ear injury.

I'd also recommend moving litter box placements if either bun is preferring to consistently pee in one particular spot, or add a second litter box to that spot. When I had two buns in pens next to each other, they started peeing next to the fence panel separating them, directly across from each other. The easiest solution was to just move their litter boxes next to the fence, the litter boxes directly next to each other with the fence in between. This completely fixed the problem of them peeing outside the litter box.

If you don't want to use the cage, if the cage base can be adapted to be used as a litter box to keep in the pen, that's a possible option as well. It's using the set up that works best for her feeling safe, as well as establishing her consistently using the litter box. There's no hard fast rule, just recommendations based on what generally works best. And that can be altered based on each rabbits response to their new environment.

When I would get a new bun, I would have them in their cage/pen to start and just observe how they're reacting to me being around, and seeing the other rabbits nearby. If their body language is telling me that they're nervous, I give them space to settle in and try to give them as stress free of an environment as possible, or relocate them to a quieter space. Then I gradually get them used to new things as I've ensured they're eating and drinking well (most important thing with a new bun settling in).

But if they're showing that they're interested and curious about me or the other rabbits nearby, I'll let them out of the cage with me sitting in the pen with them (or other smallish space), and with the other bun in the adjoining pen to see, and see how they do. If they're hopping up to me or climbing all over me, then them being nervous at all is not an issue. If they're showing interest in the bun next to their pen and not showing fear or aggression, then that's a good sign as well.

It's all about not pushing them past what they're comfortable with or what they feel safe with. You want to set up things for success, with them eating well, with the litter box, and with interactions with you and your bun.

 

[JBun]

@Mom to Minx thank you, I agree! Can't wait for her to be home!

I have one more question to post in here if any of you might know - sorry my brain is everywhere thinking about bonding! I also browse the RU forum, based in the UK, and they seem to have very different bonding techniques than what I see on here? Well, maybe not VERY different, but it seems instead of bonding dates, they recommend putting them in a neutral space for a long amount of time until they show signs of being able to be alone together so that the buns don't have to re-establish their hierarchy each time they meet. What are the pros/cons of each method? I thought that the USA and UK were pretty similar in our knowledge of animals, so seeing this difference is throwing me for a loop.

That is one benefit of the fast track method, and is generally a good method for buns that show they're digressing in their progress each day when trying the slow 'daily dates' method.

The slow method works best for buns that may need time to get used to having another bun around. Particularly if one bun is showing a lot of fear of being around another rabbit. Then I would really slow track it, even waiting on the daily dates, and spending a lot of time keeping them in adjoining pens and swapping items and scents, to help the buns get really used to each others smell that way, before progressing into dates.

With how much space to use, usually it's a smaller bonding area, like 2x3, 3x3. Larger spaces will most often cause an increase of territorial behavior or avoiding the other rabbit, which neither helps the bonding process and can sometimes be detrimental. But there are the rare occasions where some rabbits respond better to having more space and being able to more gradually get used to having another rabbit around.

You just don't know until you start the bonding process and see how they respond to the method you're trying. If you feel from their body language, that it's not progressing well, you can always try a different approach, and even switch back if that didn't work as well. Usually it's best to start out with a smaller bonding area and the slow method, then adapt from there as you get a feel for each buns reaction and progress.

One thing to be aware of, is that if they aren't showing signs of this being a 'love at first sight ' match, or generally an easier bond, the bonding process can become a difficult and long one, or even an unsuccessful one. These days I'm more of the opinion that if it becomes too difficult or stressful of a bonding experience, that it's much better to not force it, and find a better match for the rabbits involved.

This will help ensure the buns end up with a companion that they're actually happy with and not just coexisting with. It can also help prevent the high likelihood of future conflicts in the relationship and the potential for the bond breaking. You can certainly persist with a difficult stressful bond, and many times the rabbits will eventually bond, but there is a higher risk of these bonds not being the happiest ones and having a higher chance of breaking at some point.

 

[itsronni]

She’s here! I have her in her cage (which is wayyy bigger than I expected!!), which is surrounded by the pen so that there’s that three-inches of space between her and Bucky.

She’s realllly sweet - I gave her some hay and went to let her sniff my hand, she went right down for nose rubs! She loooooves nose rubs! Besides feeding and adding some toys (she loves toys so much - she’s definitely a chewer!), I’ve been letting her settle.

Bucky was a bit thumpy at first, but settled down quickly. They actually ate dinner near each other (with Ellie in the cage and pen!). Definitely interested in one another, no signs of them being aggressive so far, besides Bucky’s thumping when I first set her up. Although I know they’ll probably have to work out who’s the boss at first! Like Jbun said, though, if they prove to be a too difficult bond I’d rather bond both of them to other buns than put them through a long time of stress.

 

[itsronni]

Bucky’s been hanging out around her cage more, we’ve caught him flopped around it a couple times. They’ll sniff through the bars sometimes, too. I was giving Bucky some pets near her cage and she came bounding over begging for some too! So I had one hand in her cage on her and one on the outside on Bucky.

 

[itsronni]

This morning they ate breakfast in sight of one another again. Bucky likes to hang out near her and they'll munch on hay together or play with their toys (still separated by the pen). Bucky was circling my feet like crazy this morning and pulling on my pant leg, and Ellie was periscoping in the corner closest to me for pets!

She's really active so I figured I'd take the top off the cage and surround the base with the pen. She LOVED that, binkied and ran around! But, unfortunately, Ellie likes to dig and chew the waterproof pad in her pen, so I'm heading to Home Depot later to get her some coroplast flooring. I had to reduce her space back to just the cage base so she couldn't eat the pad. Bucky isn't a chewer at all so this will be a new challenge! I'm going to get those NIC cubes to put around the dresser and anything else I don't want chewed. Petsmart is on the list as well for some new toys and maybe a covered cat litter box to make a place for her to dig. I'm excited to give her more room - she's a chunky bunny! Very round in the middle, hehe. I expect she'll slim down over the next few weeks with better food, veg, hay, and exercise! She LOVES hay, which is awesome. Bucky took awhile to start eating hay regularly, but I think seeing her eat it is encouraging him, too!

Ellie did the first full binky I've ever seen in real life, they are so funny! Bucky will do his version - a little kick with his leg and shake his head, but from being in that hutch for 10 years, he doesn't jump at all. I mean, he hops around to move, of course, but any high jumping he simply doesn't do. Sometimes if I'm on the floor with him he'll jump over my legs or back, but that's about it! My old man. I love him so much!

 

[itsronni]

Oh - does anyone have tips for picking Ellie up out of her cage to bring her out? I'd like to bring her into the living room later, since the bedroom is Buck's turf, but I REALLY hate picking her or Bucky up. Bucky HATES it, I'm not sure how Ellie is, although when she was chewing that mat I went to pick her up and move her back to the cage base and she did mouth me, although she was probably just grumpy that I was stopping her digging (I tried distracting her with toys too before going into drastic/picking-up measures, but that didn't work and I was really worried about her ingesting something she shouldn't). Bucky's done it before, too, when I picked him up for his meds once. Luckily, both of them resume being snuggly buns right after my silly human transgressions! I make sure to tell them picking them up is my absolute last resort!

I'm thinking of luring her into the carrier with a treat instead of using the scary hands! Just the other day, Bucky went behind the couch and I had to get him out because my FMIL was cooking a smoky burger and the tv was on blaring loud and freaking him out, I was soooo upset having to pick him up and carry him back to his cage. He kicks a lot too, which terrifies me that he'll hurt himself one day when I have to grab him. I just hate doing it, probably as much as they do. I've never been the type to like to hold animals and force them to cuddle me, I've always preferred being on their level, or them coming to me. I hold them like the vet showed me - one hand under their back legs/butt and the other kind of under their front legs. I'm sure you guys know the method I'm describing, although I am awful at describing it! They also showed me the football hold, but that's a little harder to pull off IMO when they're on the floor.

 

[JBun]

I would try luring her in the carrier with a small treat. That's the easiest way. I would recommend it for when you have to move Bucky as well. Picking up a bun that particularly struggles, poses a high risk of injury occurring. We actually had a past member lose a bun from a serious accident that occurred when picking up her bun.

If you're not set on using Coloplast to cover your buns floor with and want something more permanent, a cut of textured vinyl flooring may be a better option. It's more durable and chew resistant than Coloplast. Though probably more expensive.

 

[itsronni]

I would try luring her in the carrier with a small treat. That's the easiest way. I would recommend it for when you have to move Bucky as well. Picking up a bun that particularly struggles, poses a high risk of injury occurring. We actually had a past member lose a bun from a serious accident that occurred when picking up her bun.

If you're not set on using Coloplast to cover your buns floor with and want something more permanent, a cut of textured vinyl flooring may be a better option. It's more durable and chew resistant than Coloplast. Though probably more expensive.

Great idea! I'll look at what Home Depot has available when I go.

 

[itsronni]

I found some rolled vinyl for $20 at Home Depot and it looks and works awesome!!! And we have loads more in the roll that we’re going to use around the house! We hate carpet here, lol.

My poor boyfriend was ran out of the room last night by Miss Ellie’s playing through the night. Meanwhile, I slept like the dead!
We made an 8pm run to Petsmart last night and I got her a bunch of oxbow toys, AND made her a dig box with hay that I sprinkled just a couple of her pellets in for her to forage through. She’s got sooo much energy! She’s the first animal I have who actually appreciates the toys! I tried to give Bucky one, he sniffed it, shook his head, and went back to his business! Lol! He prefers the cardboard box tunnels I have made all around the room - he runs through them all night long!

Edit to add: When we go in the room, Bucky is usually a few feet from her cage relaxing. They show some interest in one another, trying to sniff through the bars, but not TOO much - which I think is a GOOD sign? I've still been giving them their breakfast and dinner greens near one another, too, they seem to like that. I also pet them both at the same time (which is kind of awkward because of the pen but they love it!), so they're associating one another with good things. I've got another pen for bonding my coworker gave me today (I have so many x-pens now... lol), I think I might try the first date this weekend since she's been settling in so well.