When it rains it pours - 401k loan vs my dogs life

[Leaf]

I thought I'd be online yesterdaybut I wasn't. I got home, took care of the animals and was ready for bed when my dog Coda ran into the room. She was playing with Trinket (my other dog) and then she staggered and fell sideways.



Coda got up, fell again and started yipping. I got the phone book so I could call the vet. Coda followed me into the room, tried to jump on the bed and collapsed.

I opted to go to the vet, not to call them. In my shorts, slippers and T-shirt I drove through freezing rain to the office and must have been panic stricken because a little old lady opened the door as I ran up with Coda in my arms.



I told the lady in the front my dog was having seizures. I was the first one in, barring a room full of scheduled patients.



Coda went into another seizure and they gave her a valum shot. That didnt work so they gave her phenobarbatol. Her body temp was 94 degrees, heart rate 78.

They kept her overnight. The vet ran tests, no epilepsy. Fasted her, fed her a fatty diet and did more bloodwork. We should get the definant results today but its looking like a liver shunt.

I just spent over $1500 on my car, have the house payment coming up, a very small savings cushion and a dog that may need to go to the "big" hospital for surgery.

I've been online looking at my 401K to see if I can take out a loan. I should be able to. I'm also going to be looking at IMOM. When the results come back Im going to have to make a fast decision.

Right NOW I dont have the funds to do the surgery. Coda is just under a year old, and at this rate if its a shunt she could be dead by her 1st birthday (Dec 25th) if her seizures aren't gotten under control.

I'm absolutely heartsick over this.

What are your views of taking a loan from your 401K? What do you think of taking a loan out for a dog?

I've been physically sick going over all of this. She's running around now as happy as can be with no clue how much is hanging in the balance.



The surgery isestimated between $2,00-$2,800. The hospital will take half down and then willmake payment schedules for 3 months.I just cant see coming up with the money unless I take out a loan. No "money fairies" are related to me - I'm usually the one helping others out, so I dont have the option to ask anyone for any type of support.

If surgery is needed and an option I can affoard, here's where she'll be referred to:

http://www.vmth.missouri.edu/

In the past their success rate with small dogs has been 80%. The dogs lifespan without surgery is approx 3yrs. With surgery the lifetime will diminsh but be quite a bit longer. For a small breed like her, the estimated 14 year lifespan will go down to 8-10 years if all goes well.

If her shunt is outside the liver the survival rate of the surgery is greater than if the shunt is inside the liver.

She can be on K/D and L/D diet from the vet to help lessen the protien intake, and she can be put on the medicine called Lactous to help her eliminate more frequently in order to rid her body of toxins/bacteria faster. It's not a cure, just a way to help.

edited to modify info since my call to Columbia

 

[Bo B Bunny]

I might get bashed for this, but if she's that sick and less than a year old - chances are it's not going to go well even with the surgery.

I'd find out if she can do without it - how it will be, etc. If she cannot live without it or whatever........ I think I would put her down.


and the photo just made it worse - I feel awful saying that but that's what i would have to do.

 

[Leaf]

I hope there isn't any bashing either. Thats why I've put it here instead of out in the open.

I really have a lot to consider but her results aren't in yet so things are up in the air. I just want to explore all the options.

The surgeon says gettng her on medication and proper foods will help quite a bit in seeing how the surgery could go, and help her overall health in the meantime. They generally want a dog on the food/medicine at minimum 2 weeks before surgery if thats what I opt to do.

IF she has the shunt the options seem to be:

let it go and let her live until her quality of life is too poor

no surgery, but special food/medicine to prolong (somewhat) lifespan

surgery with an 80% (projected) success rate

and of course, her not making it through the surgery at all



I'm once again exhausted (or maybe still) so I'm off to bed.



..

Isnt the pic pathetic? This little one is very special and if I told her story... well I don't know. She's already been through a lot in her life and thats part of what makes it so rough on me. Some dogs never seem to get much of a break in life.

 

[Bo B Bunny]

foods and meds I would definitely do! She could last a long while with that. It also gives you more time to think and decide.

Deep breath, count to 10. or count to 100 if it helps

 

[jordiwes]

It's tough. We would take out a loan for our bunnies.

I think Haley had some maxed credit cards for her Max boy.

But I won't bash you, whatever decision you make.

 

[maherwoman]

jordiwes wrote:

But I won't bash you, whatever decision you make.

Nor will I, Hun...

One thing people should always keep in mind...they aren't YOU...they don't have YOUR life...and when anyone ever feels the need to bash another person for this or that decision, they should take a glance in the mirror. Chances are there's something about THEM they relate to in the other person, and that's why they feel the need to bash...to take the attention off of themselves.

I really think you're a wonderful animal slave, Hun...and I would never venture to think otherwise. Time has shown your love for your babies...and your extreme care for them. There's not a single person in this world that could fault your well-thought-out decisions with your animals.

I've seen people bashed for various things, and always by people who either had done the same thing in the past, or was in the process of considering the same thing, or had the same basic attitude as the person they were bashing. It's nothing, and means nothing.

You are doing the right thing, no matter what you decide...this isn't just a decision you're making alone...you AND Coda are making it together. You know her so well, and she's also telling you what she would prefer happen. You're wonderful, and I know you'll do the right thing.

I honestly cannot say one way or another, though I do lean toward what Pennie is saying...but the final decision is up to you, and I back you 100% no matter what you decide.

Hugs to you...and lots of love...

:hug: :hearts

 

[Bo B Bunny]

I feel awful for anyone who has to make a decision like this. Part of my reasoning is that we've been there and done that and it seems like every time it's turned out that we spent a whole lot of money and the animal didn't survive anyhow.

If you could "buy" a year with the food/med combo and then do the surgery - maybe it would help you prepare financially.

 

[JadeIcing]

I guess we have been lucky. I don't want to think of what we have spent on some of our dogs over the years and they are still here. Or on Ringo and he is still kicking hard.

 

[Leaf]

Coda's vet results are in. She does have a liver shunt. The vet is running more tests but believes due to her size she will not be a good candidate for surgery.

 

[JadeIcing]

*hugs* She looks like a sweet thing.

 

[Bo B Bunny]

She has a shunt? or she needs one?

 

[Leaf]

She has a liver shunt according to her tests. We're going to do the dye tests this coming week to see what kind it is.



Without doing the the tests (and sometimessurgery is needed even then to confirm the type), the vet is under the impression due to Koda's size and troubles her shunt is intra hepatic. I just ran across this and the last paragraph echos my vets thoughts:

The intra hepatic type of problem is another story. The surgery is quite extensive and usually requires two surgeries and several days in the hospital. The veterinary surgeon first has to go into the liver to find a suitable vein (i.e., large enough) to reconnect. This part of the surgery takes quite a bit of time and current protocol is to find the vein, sew everything back up, let the dog recover for a few days and then go back in and connect the vein. So far only limited success has been achieved with this type of surgery. Management plays a critical role in the long term maintenance of affected animals, regardless of surgical intervention. Either a low-protein diet or a no-protein diet is usually recommended. The results of this are not entirely pleasant. These dogs are never quite 100% healthy. Their coats lack luster, they have no energy, etc.
http://www.italian-greyhound.net/livershunt.htm


I read this earlier:


Diet: Because many of the toxins produced in the intestines come from protein, it is important to reduce the amount of protein in the diet. Dog food for adults and puppies usually contains 25% and 29% protein, respectively, and may have meat byproducts. Dogs with shunts need high quality proteins made from milk or vegetable, and are restricted to a protein content of 18% or less (on a dry matter basis). The diets should be easily digestible, rich in antioxidants and vitamins, and low in copper and iron.

Antibiotics: If clinical signs are not controlled with a protein-restricted diet and lactulose, veterinarians will often prescribe antibiotics to reduce the number of toxin-producing bacteria in the intestines. Antibiotics will also be needed if the animal has a urinary tract infection.

Can dogs with shunts be treated with only medical management?
Most animals improve immediately with proper diet and medicine, and about one third of the dogs treated medically will live a relatively long life. Unfortunately, over half of the dogs treated medically are euthanized, usually within 10 months of diagnosis, because of uncontrollable neurologic signs, such as seizures and behavior changes, or progressive liver damage. Dogs that tend to do well with longterm medical management are usually older at the time of diagnosis, have more normal bloodwork, and have less severe clinical signs. Surgery provides the best chance for a long healthy life in most dogs.
http://www.vet.utk.edu/clinical/sacs/shunt/faq.shtml

....

The medical management write up may or may not be in her favor. Diet changes may help but she is under a year old. Her bloodwork was all good except for her very high BUN level, but then again her seizures were not mild.

Almost every website I read says a dog without the surgery lives about 10 months after the initial diagnosis. The surgeon in Columbia said they can live up to three years

 

[BlueGiants]

Oh Leaf, I'm so sorry you have to make a tough decision like that... I've been there several times and made decisions both ways. No one should do any bashing! (I echo what Rosie said!) I will support you no matter what you decide. :hug:

If Coda can be maintained and stabilized, even for a little while, it would be wonderful....

She will tell you what she wants. If it gets to be too much on her, you will know. It is never easy... or fair...

My thoughts are with you.... {{{hugs}}} ray:

 

[TinysMom]

I've been thinking about this thread ever since you posted it and trying to figure out what I wanted to say.

I don't have a problem with taking a loan out against a 401K and in fact, we've done it more than once (after I swore we'd never do it). Sometimes life happens though and you need to do it. Only you can really decide this.

I know that Art & I don't have the finances to spend hundreds and thousands of dollars on an animal. I know when Haley fought so hard for Max - I was concerned because I didn't want to see her max out all her credit cards and go deeply into debt...onto to lose him. I was SOOOOO happy and relieved when he pulled through and I was glad she was willing to spend so much on him and see him through things.

I think the decision is something each person has to make - and it may be different every time they face the issue. Sometimes if you have a family and children - you may not be able to take food off the table to fight something like this. Or perhaps you have a mortgage and no space in there to breathe. Othertimes - maybe you have an emergency fund or some way to get credit.

She's a gorgeous dog and I can see why you'd want to do everything for her that you can do....my only concern is...you've had so many things happen recently - what if you take out that loan - and then need it a month down the road for another major repair on your car or for some other need.

All I can say is - "follow your heart" and we'll all be here for you for the rest of the journey.

Peg

 

[Bo B Bunny]

Peg, you said everything I was thinking.

 

[Pipp]

Every dog is different, just like every person is different. I wouldn't want to live my life with any kind of seriouschronic pain and/or nausea.I'm not a fighter.

My mother, onthe other hand, breaks bones andwalks around for days without treatment, she just 'works through the pain'.

I'm okaywith lying around my bedroom and watching TV.

I had a roommate who goes stark raving mad if he doesn't get out and 'do' something energetic.He could handle pain, but not alack of energy.

It's tough, but you just have totry and figure out your puppy's wishes as best you can.

I would notfeel guilty, though, about deciding to just let Coda go. I really do believe in euthanasia (and assisted suicide for that matter). Spending a ton of money to keep heralive may get you a badge of dedication and courage,and more time to enjoy her company, but it may also be at the expense of Coda's well-being.

So sorry you're going through this.

sas ray:

 

[Leaf]

At this point, its been decided that Coda will not have the surgery. We believe it is too risky and that alone is the deciding factor.

 

[Bo B Bunny]

I hope the new food and medicines will help her through this illness.

Keep us posted. She's absolutely a dollbaby. Is she a long haired chiq?

 

[Leaf]

It's hard to know for sure what she is. There was a boom of Papillons in the area about 5 years ago, then idiots had to go mix them with everything to make "designer" breeds.

She came from a hoarder (67 live animals in her APARTMENT, 14 dead also recovered) so I don't know...

Coda isn't responding well to much at all. Her seizures are much more frequent/severe and no medicine can/will help especially since most meds affect the liver negatively and hers is already so compromised.

I'll be giving her extra love Sunday and Monday. Nothing is improving - things are declining. Her final vet visit will be on Tuesday unless something even worse crops up before then and it wouldn't be fair to wait that long.

 

[BlueGiants]

I'm sorry Leaf... :hug: