Update on Snowy::

[mouse_chalk]

I'm sorry, I've been meaning to post this for a few days now but I've either not had the time or just haven't been in the right frame of mind to be typing in-depth things and explaining stuff.

Basically, the other week we noticed Snowy had a bit of a damp nose. Not runny, and there was no mucous or anything, it was just damp, like when I held her, I had a little damp spot on my arm afterwards... We mentioned it the to the vet when she had her nails trimmed, who thought that it possibly could have been due to a reaction to the new oat hay we'd been giving them, which they'd never had before, so we took it out, and it did get better. The vet checked her teeth and said that they seemed fine, although one of her back teeth was slightly long, but the vet didn't think it could be causing too much of an issue..

So, she then got better, and her nose seemed fine for at least a week or so, we kept checking her but it was fine. Then, last week I noticed it was damp again. And I could have been imagining it, but I thought that her nose was slightly yellowy round the edges. Then the next time I looked, no yellow stains. The next time I looked, it was definately yellow, so we took her to the vets Thursday. But by the time we got her to the vets, there was no yellow again! So now I can't be sure if it was just the light, or I imagined it, or she cleaned it off or what.... :?

However, the vet we saw I really wasn't happy with. I can't say that she was terrible, but I didn't feel at all comfortable with her knowledge of rabbits. She said, and these were pretty much the exact words 'she probably has some sort of niggling infection, a bit like when humans get a cold' and Steve made some joke about hayfever and she said 'yeah, exactly that, it might be hayfever'. She said that she wanted Snowy to try some Baytril, and that should shift it.

I mentioned that Liz, our regular vet had checked her teeth before and said that one was a tiny bit long, and I knew that a runny nose could be a symptom, and she said 'well I can't feel anything, but if the Baytril doesn't work, then we will have to knock her out and 'do' her teeth, but obviously we don't want to have to put her under an aneasthetic (sp?) if the Baytril will work' Erm... Hello? Look at the teeth maybe? She looked at the front teeth, much like I do at home, and sort of rubbed Snowy's jaw, but that was it! Correct me if I'm wrong, but they should do more than that to check a rabbit's teeth right? Especially the back ones? She said she couldn't 'feel' anything there, but she didn't look, so how could she know for sure?!!

I really wasn't happy... But I'm just too lacking in confidence to speak up at the time. I mean, after all, she is a vet, and has been through so many years of training and studying etc.. It could have just been that she didn't recognise that me and Steve know... more about rabbits than your average owner, even though I'm by far an expert (that isn't a member here lol), and so she was trying to explain things more simply for us, but then me asking questions about Baytril and her teeth might have given that away? I don't know...

My initial thoughts were to try the Baytril, and if it didn't clear up within a few days to get her back in and insist to see one of the regular vets that we trust and insist that they either do a culture, check the teeth properly, both even... but then I'm wondering if the Baytril could do any harm in the meantime? She's not had it before that I know of, and she's ok on it, except she wont swallow it at all really, even with a bit of pure apple juice mixed in, she just dribbles it out the side..

She's still eating, drinking and being her usual self, apart from the damp nose, and I definately haven't seen any yellowish stains since, but obviously I'm still concerned. Especially since she now lives with 3 other bunnies! They all seem completely fine too...

I guess the other reason I've put off posting for a few days is that I've been worried that people will think badly of me for not getting the best treatment for her or whatever... I feel like I really should have spoken up but I just hate to do so! I feel like a terrible bunny mum at the moment! :tears2:

I've got a pic of her nose that I will upload but it's a bit misleading cos she has Baytril dribbled all round her mouth at the time...

 

[ra7751]

Hi,

A couple of things here really concern me. First...if you are checking teeth, a visual will not do the job. While it is possible to visually see some but not allof the molars and possibly see a spur, how about the roots? Some type of rads (x-ray or MRI) is the proper diagnostic tool to use especially to see if we havemolar impaction or a possible start of a soft tissue (abscess) issue. A visual is not a proper diagnosis if a dental concern is suspected. And second, the indiscriminate use of Baytril. That type of use of antibiotics is why we have so many resistant bacteria and more becoming resistant all the time. In years past, we could just about assume pasteurella if there was a bacterial infection. Can't assume that any longer as we have seen several pathogens we have never seen in a rabbit in years previous. The proper way is to culture any suspected infection. Most of the top vets in the US have abandoned the use of Baytril in rabbits since it is pretty much ineffective and there are other drugs that are effective and safe. I rarely use Baytril here and if I do, it is for general support of the immune system if I use steroids....and if I were to use it, Baytril seems to work better if injected rather than offered orally. If this were my rabbit, I think I would step up the investigation of the root cause of the issue.

Randy

 

[polly]

Jen don't for one minute think you are not the best of owners You are! there are so many different things that can cause their noses to get a bit runny like Randy say's it is best to get a culture done ask for one specifically if you take her back. I have had a couple of buns that will get a very slight runny nose if they are hot or stresed and other than that there is not a thing wrong with them at all. SO it could be nothing or everything the weather over here at the moment is so changeable too and that may not be helping could be that she is more sensitive.

:hug:go back to your usual vet and ask for a culture if you want to be sure at least then your mind is at rest about it

 

[Maureen Las]

I don't have Gabriel anymore because of his renal failure , however, he had the slightest hint of yellow under his nose now and then, ever so faint .it never materialized into anything more than that and was never treated although I did ask several vets about it. His nose ,however was not wet.
I would focus on the teeth because even something not visually spectacular when examined could still be an irritant to the rabbit.
Please don't even think that you are not a good bunny parent.
You are and we know it and so does Snowy

 

[mouse_chalk]

Thanks everyone- both for the great advice and making me feel much less of a failure bunny slave! :shock:

I'm definately going to take her back- right now her nose is damp, although not runny and not yellowy at all. Our usual vets who know us will understand that we have 3 other bunnies, one previously very sick, so it's important to rule out anything that they could catch...

The more I think about this vet, the more angry I am at her for fobbing us off with Baytril without doing any real investigation (I know what people say about the regular/constant use of Baytril, I wouldn't mind if there was any valid reason behind it other than it being a 'cold'), and me for not speaking up... I knew at the time it was wrong! It cost me £35 to be told what I knew was wrong for a rabbit!

I'm going to call them tomorrow and get an appointment with a good vet, one of our regulars, or the good stand-ins we've seen before. Even if it takes a couple of days, that wont hurt will it? To be on the Baytril for a couple more days? :?

From the symptoms I've described, does it seem more like a tooth or URI issue? Obviously I have no experience with this, although like Polly said the weather has changed from cool to hot and back again so much recently, and she's been out most days it's not raining, although obviously in shade etc and not in the direct heat... And every other bun is absolutely fine, all healthy and dry noses.... If it comes to it though, I'd rather pay for the x-rays and culture, just to have the peace of mind that she's ok....

I swear, half the problem with sick/unhealthy bunnies is knowing the right way to go about things! :?

Also, does anyone have any extra advice on how I can get her to swallow the Baytril in the meantime? I don't want to stop it without speaking to a vet, but she still barely swallows it and just lets it dribble out the side of her mouth.... :dunno:dunno:dunno

Thanks again!

 

[Maureen Las]

I have noticed with mine that ifI mix anything with a piece of banana that they will eat it out of a bowl without realizing it.

 

[Maureen Las]

" I swear half the things about sick/unhealthy buns is knowing how to go about things""



:yeahthat::yeahthat::yeahthat:This so very true

Maureen

 

[mouse_chalk]

Oh my gosh! I'm sooo sorry! I swear I thought I had updated this thread..... :?

There's not much to report right now.... Snowy's nose has on the whole been a lot drier, most of last week it wasn't too damp but it showed signs of wetness at the weekend, and one day she had some yellowyness there.... So we have an appointment with Liz tomorrow, her being one of the regular vets there. She's the one who spotted Chalk's lump in her abdomen that turned out to be an abscess, and I really like her. I'm going to casually mention the 'cold' diagnosis and see if it raises any eyebrows... We would have got her in sooner but Liz was away, the other regular vet is on paternity leave, and we thought it just bettet to wait to see the ones we trust rather than waste money and go back for a potentially disappointing visit....

This week though, she has been mostly ok... But I really want to just rule out it being anything like a tooth issue, etc. Even if we have to go to the expense of an x-ray and culture just to find out it's probably just some dusty hay or whatever, it'll be a relief to know that's all it is.

Having said that though, the hay she has is the same we give to all our buns, and is the same we've been buying since... Feb? And it's not that dusty.. in fact, the latest batch was really nice and fresh looking. I have wondered if it could be the litter, which is wood pellets, as they tend to smell quite strong of amonia, which makes even my nose run? I empty it really regularly, but all 4 buns will normally only use the one litterbox out of 2, and they all tend to pee at the same place, so it's pretty wet sawdust by the time I empty it out...

She continues to eat hay, pellets and veggies like nobody's business...

Saying that, every otherbun is completely fine, dry clear noses all the way... which makes me think, something that can only affect Snowy, is a tooth issue?

Either way, I hope I can get some answers at the vets tomorrow! I'll post to let you know how it goes!

 

[Maureen Las]

I am one to think that teeth are a major factor in a bun's ability to either eat or fight off infection.
if a tooth looks a"little long" it only makes me wonder how the bunny experiences it.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Jen, Rory and I are feeling your pain! Ror's had a damp nose (with no yellow) the past couple days, and I can see that his front teeth aren't wearing evenly. I pointed it out to the vet when we were there a couple weeks ago, and she wants to see him again because of it. However, his teeth looked even after I gave him a willow ball to chew on. He's finished the ball and now the teeth look worse than before! Can't help but wonder if it isn't causing the runny nose, even though his molars were okay last time we were at the vet. I will be keeping you and Snowy in my thoughts!

 

[mouse_chalk]

Thanks guys! We're back from the vet just. Snowy's going in tomorrow! :shock:

Liz had another look at her teeth, and she can see that the molars- I can't remember which ones, the name begins with m? maxi-something? are wearing long, and aren't matching evenly with the others, on both sides. So, she reccommends a dental, under a general aneasthetic, to file them down at least, and to get a better look to see what else is going on, and do an x-ray at the same time. She said she thinks we can pretty much rule out any kind of infection being as it's clear discharge, it's been going steady for some weeks now, and none of the other bunnies have any symptoms whatsoever. Not even a sniffle! Either way, the dental would still need to be done as the molars are wearing long and she can see some inflammation there...

Soooo, we're dropping her off at 8.30am tomorrow with a packed lunch, and picking her up around 5ish in the afternoon, whenever Steve can leave work to get her. My poor Snowy baby! :tears2: I think she'll be ok but I'm still so worried about her...

The vet reckons that it's best to do it now while she's still eating and drinking ok etc, than wait until it's causing more of a problem for her, as obviously that will make it more difficult to bring her back to eating properly after the aneasthetic...

Does this all sound ok? I'm really happy that we waited to see Liz, I just trust her much more.

What kind of food shall I get for Snowy to eat afterwards? I'm going to stock up tonight on carrot tops etc, her favourites, should I get some baby food etc too, just in case?

What else?

Oh, and it's not as expensive as I thought either- £111 for the dental, running to £200 with x-rays, which is $400 roughly- we can do a direct claim with Pet Plan though so don't need to pay it ourselves, and didn't even need to pay for the consultation today!

Thanks guys!

 

[JadeIcing]

ray::hug:

 

[Maureen Las]

I think it's great that he's having his teeth done.
I don't think that you have to worry verymuch about food..you can just wet his pellets, maybe get some pedialyte, and some canned pumpkin
My rabbit beau has had many extensive dental procedures and he always eats something the same day..I never had a problem with it.

just make sure that you get pain meds
good luck!

 

[mouse_chalk]

Maureen, Snowy is a she!

Thanks for your advice! :hug:
I'm going to stock up on carrot tops this evening- one of her favourites and I feed them wet, so it gives her extra hydration. We can't get canned pumpkin here sadly.... I'll get some organic apple and banana baby food though, that worked quite well with Chalk when she wouldn't eat after her op? I also have some critical care too, just in case for over the weekend, I can wet the Oxbow pellets like you said...

Oh, and as for Pedialyte, can anyone tell me if it's the same as Dioralyte over here? We can't get Pedialyte under that name (can't get anything much over here lol), but I seem to remember reading that Dioralyte is the same thing?

I've got lots of Metacam already, and they usually give a stronger longer-lasting painkiller as well with most surgeries, but we'll double check in the morning and be sure to get a dosage for the Metacam...

Now I know it's likely the cause of all this I'm off to the forum library to read up some more!

If possible, could a mod change the title of this thread, or update it, to say she's going in, or something more relevant please? Thanks

Jen xx

 

[polly]

Hi Jen one of teh best things you can get is some critical care from yoru vets. That way you can add it to her water or if needs must you can mix it in with a pellet mush as well if you feel you need to.

Any of my buns that have had to have dental surgery are usually so high with teh pain meds they give before sending them home they eat no problem at all!!

 

[mouse_chalk]

Thanks Polly! If it was you who updated the title, thanks for that as well!

I've got at least one, maybe 2 sachets of critical care, or recovery I think it's called? I think our vets can get hold of some more though if I need it...

We have some pure apple and banana baby food as well, just in case, I stole some carrot tops from Asda as well :embarrassed:They had 2 bunches, one was just the tops that someone had taken the carrots from, and another was a bunch of tops that had one and a half broken carrots on it. I was getting bunches of corriander, so I just shoved the tops in the same bag! Eeeek arrest me! :shock:

I'm so worried for her, but at the same time relieved that it's being taken care of and she's being cared for, and it's taken seriously by the vets.... Steve's quite upset about it, he's not a member here so I guess he doesn't read about all the bunnies that go in for dental work and make it through absolutely fine...

He says he's going to have a big cuddle with Snowy later and tell her all about what's going to happen lol....

She's going to get a great packed lunch to go in with I've decided- pellets, romaine, sping greens, carrot tops, corriander, parsley and basil. Maybe some apple as well, if she can manage it. Maybe a strawberry...

Steve is currently trying to catch Snowy to have that hug- she seems like she's mad at us already! :shock:

 

[mouse_chalk]

We got hold of her, and here she is snuggling into Steve. Her face looks like 'Daddy! Please don't take me there!' :? I had a long cuddle as well. I know we sound soppy, we just love her so much and want her to be ok....

 

[NZminilops]

Snowy .

That picture is lovely.

 

[LuvaBun]

Oh Jen, I'm sorry you are going through this, so soon after Chalk's problems. Hopefully, this dental will solve the problem.

I'll be thinking of you tomorrow - I can imagine how nervous you (and Steve) will be.

Jan

 

[mezeta]

Give Snowy a big cuddle for me and let her know me Jess and Dexter are thinking of her. Hope it all goes well tomorrow.

Big bunny hugs xxx