Territorial Marking

[MeggyM]

I need help figuring out how to prevent my boy from feeling the need to mark everywhere he roams.

My pair of bonded buns have been together for about 6 months. My new boy Finn has a large personality and loves attention and handling, but he leaves behind droppings wherever he wants to mark as his space. He appears extremely territorial though without the aggression. I have been observing and tracking this habit extensively and at this point he is without a doubt doing so on purpose. For instance, as soon as I let them out he will run to the living room rug and start leaving poop around it as well as the indoor pen. I have a rug in my room that I am trying to acclimate him to so it can be used in the pen. Finn leaves droppings around this rug and often pees on it but does not really poop anywhere else. When I remove the rug he finds a new area to claim and leaves droppings around something or in some corner areas. He can be happily resting, see me give attention to my girl bun or dog, and will immediately hop over and start leaving droppings around us.

In his pen he will cover the area with droppings. He will come out of his liter box to leave droppings on a newly cleaned floor and hop about covering the whole area.

Whenever I clean his litter box he hops in, asks for pets, and when denied-pees. He use to do this outside of his box but I’ve worked with him a LOT.

I was reading in another post about them needing a space that is just their own. Finn seems to try to mark these spaces, but every time I clean them up he remarks or tries somewhere new.

How can I lower his need to be so territorial???

 

[ElfNugget]

I need help figuring out how to prevent my boy from feeling the need to mark everywhere he roams.

My pair of bonded buns have been together for about 6 months. My new boy Finn has a large personality and loves attention and handling, but he leaves behind droppings wherever he wants to mark as his space. He appears extremely territorial though without the aggression. I have been observing and tracking this habit extensively and at this point he is without a doubt doing so on purpose. For instance, as soon as I let them out he will run to the living room rug and start leaving poop around it as well as the indoor pen. I have a rug in my room that I am trying to acclimate him to so it can be used in the pen. Finn leaves droppings around this rug and often pees on it but does not really poop anywhere else. When I remove the rug he finds a new area to claim and leaves droppings around something or in some corner areas. He can be happily resting, see me give attention to my girl bun or dog, and will immediately hop over and start leaving droppings around us.

In his pen he will cover the area with droppings. He will come out of his liter box to leave droppings on a newly cleaned floor and hop about covering the whole area.

Whenever I clean his litter box he hops in, asks for pets, and when denied-pees. He use to do this outside of his box but I’ve worked with him a LOT.

I was reading in another post about them needing a space that is just their own. Finn seems to try to mark these spaces, but every time I clean them up he remarks or tries somewhere new.

How can I lower his need to be so territorial???

May I ask whether your bunnies are desexed/ splayed?
As our bunny Elf did that at around 6 months when the vet says his weight had to be over 1.5 kg.
Elf started to spray around the lounge area and that was when we made a call to the vet. After the operation it took a few days of recovery and we noticed he stopped peeing n pooping to mark his territory, which was a huge relief.

I hope this is helpful.

 

[Nancy McClelland]

We have rescued more than 50--only 2 would do their business exclusively in the litter pan in their hutch. Fortunately, they all used the boxes around the room for peeing. If they pee'd in a box we considered them litter trained--the rest is why I own a large shop vac--the poo is easily vacuumed, unlike their urine.

 

[MeggyM]

Sorry forgot to mention that. Yes they are both fixed and Finn has been fixed for many months so his hormones should have gone down about as much as they are going to.

He marks by peeing as well. I was just cleaning and setting up the indoor pen and he came right over and peed next to it.
I have to keep the dog beds up and couch blocked off to let him roam.

I never had this issue with my female. Of course there will be some stray poop here or there with all buns but with Finn he is intentionally pooping in certain areas. As soon as his poop is picked up he will hop over to that area and poop some more. It just seems very territorial.

Has anyone else experienced that? How about with your rescue buns?

 

[JBun]

What type of interaction does he have with your dogs? Do your rabbits have their own set space and then they are let out into other areas for playtime?

 

[MeggyM]

What type of interaction does he have with your dogs? Do your rabbits have their own set space and then they are let out into other areas for playtime?

They are all able to roam freely together through the apartment when I'm home but they don't have too many interactions. Finn is not very interested in my dog and my dog doesn't interact with them much since she is large and knows she could easily hurt the them.
My female bun is fond of my dog, but my dog really just tolerates them both. lol!
The rabbits are currently living on my patio(I live in fl so its not too cold) they have the whole thing to themselves when I am gone and when I come home I usually open it up so then it becomes a shared space with my dog as well. However, prior to this, and on some cold days, they have an indoor pen. Finn's territorial behavior hasn't changed much either way.

I've tried to really observe how my dog influences Finn and see if it adds to or is the cause of his markings, but I don't see any change in behavior when my dog is around in the same room or not. Finn seems to be more concerned with marking his territory to send Me a message than the animals... for instance; the patio will be completely clean and free of poop for hours while he is out there, but the second I come outside and start doing things on the patio he follows me around, leaving poop behind everywhere we go. Finn is also extremely dominant and expects constant pets. So I know he is asking for pets when he follows me around, and I shower him with them, but I cannot pet him every single time, especially when I'm trying to clean.

 

[annawynne3707]

I've got the same problem, except my girls aren't fixed yet. As I am working on getting both done same time, I've got other animals that need attention with vet first as my oldest boy cat has pancreatitis and trying to get that under first. I definitely think my girls are trying to mark their territory because of my their animals, in one definite place because my boy with pancreatitis has accidents in our bathroom with diarrhea, in that seems to be the dominant place they mark. On my bunny sites on Facebook say you will never be able to stop the poop balls, but should be able to train to pee in a box. The poop isn't what smells it's the urine, and that's really what I want them to do is get letter trained for peeing in the box, I have no problem vacuuming up their poo

 

[MeggyM]

I've got the same problem, except my girls aren't fixed yet. As I am working on getting both done same time, I've got other animals that need attention with vet first as my oldest boy cat has pancreatitis and trying to get that under first. I definitely think my girls are trying to mark their territory because of my their animals, in one definite place because my boy with pancreatitis has accidents in our bathroom with diarrhea, in that seems to be the dominant place they mark. On my bunny sites on Facebook say you will never be able to stop the poop balls, but should be able to train to pee in a box. The poop isn't what smells it's the urine, and that's really what I want them to do is get letter trained for peeing in the box, I have no problem vacuuming up their poo

Yes, they have horrible litter box habits due to hormones before getting fixed.
It's just that most improve immensely once they get fixed.

 

[JBun]

I think you could have a hierarchy issue going on. He thinks he's 'boss bun' and is poop marking as a way of protesting you coming and going from the enclosure without his permission, not petting him whenever he wants you to, and denying him access to the rest of the house full time but leaving and going into it yourself without him. And yes, you can't just constantly be petting him or doing what he wants you to do

So it's a matter of establishing yourself as 'top bun' by using behaviors other dominant rabbits use. You can try to gently but firmly usher him back to his enclosure if he is poop marking while out for play time. This is best done immediately after he has done what you don't want him doing, like poop marking, and then depositing his stray poops back into his own enclosure. This is to mimic the dominant rabbit behavior of chasing a subordinate rabbit away from being or doing something you don't approve of. But the main method I would suggest trying is claiming his space as your own.

(info on claiming space)
https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Aggressive_rabbits
"2) Take what's his - Telling him your bigger/stronger than him isn't going to tell him you mean business. You have to take what he currently has and it's probably simpler than you think. You're going to claim where he is standing and make it your spot by forcing him to move. After you did the above step, tap him on the butt which is bunny language for move your ***. If he doesn't move keep pushing harder until he moves out of arms reach. Step into the spot he just vacated and claim it as yours. That piece of floor is your domain, he is not allowed to touch it.

If he approaches you, repeat, step 1 and then 2. Basically you're being a bully, I'm bigger than you and I like your spot, beat it, this is my spot now. He is forced to move on and bend to your will. Bunnies do this also and it usually leads to chasing which is why if chasing occurs a fight is usually close at hand during bonding. We don't want to put him into fight/flight mode, we just want to say I'm in charge."

Another method rabbits use to show their dominance is first choice at feeding time. The one who controls the food or eats first, is the one that is seen as dominant. So the way to show this is by controlling how the food is given. One way is to give out one piece at a time, so he knows you are the controller and giver of good food, and he has to wait on you giving each piece. Another way to convey that you're in charge of the food is treat training. This will teach him that he has to wait for his food until he has done something you ask, then is rewarded. You can use his regular veggies or even daily pellet rations. The food needs to be stuff he gets excited to be eating. The more high value the food is to him, the more motivation he'll have to learn and listen to you.

https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Training_a_rabbit
You may also consider working on building a closer friendship between him and your dog, but only if it can be done safely based on the temperament of your dog and rabbit. Some of the marking behavior could be a competition for territory because your bun doesn't consider your dog as part of their group and hierarchy. So each time he's let out in an area your dog has been in, he feels the need to reestablish his dominance and territory. But if they were to establish a closer bond with each other, it may help your bun feel more secure with where your dog fits in the hierarchy, and could help calm the poop marking down. Though if you do decide to try this, make sure to do this properly, supervised at all times, and ensuring the safety of your bun foremost.

Here's a method one rabbit owner used for introducing their dog and rabbit.

https://rabbitsindoors.weebly.com/rabbits-with-dogs.html
With all of these ideas, repetition and consistency is key. Doing it many times to reinforce your point, and making sure you aren't letting him exhibit dominant rabbit behaviors towards you, as that will undo what you're attemting to change.

 

[MeggyM]

Omg, wow, thank you SO much! This is so different than anything I've heard or tried.
This is the exact behavior I witness him do with my female. He's incredibly dominant and receives grooming from her frequently though he has never once groomed her back!
Can't wait to start putting this into action.

When I pick up his poop and scoot him back to his area should I put it in his litter box?

You're absolutely right about Finn with my dog as well. There is no bond and he definitely tries to show his dominance to my dog through marking. And not to worry, I know its an unlikely set of animals but the rabbits are completely safe with my dog. My dog will actually stand in front of them and snarl protectively when another dog walks past the patio. I supervised them extensively for quite a while but ultimately my dog just ignores them so I'm not sure how I would create a bond there...? Though my female is much more fond of my dog than Finn, even though they don't interact much, so maybe it is possible.
But I can definitely start with establishing my dominance.

So if I make him work for his veggies and pellets(which he will) should I reward him with pets and a high tone voice in addition to the food when he does what I want or does that put me back in the "submissive" role? If I pick him up and pet him at times, will that put me back in the submissive role?

 

[MeggyM]

The funny thing is that my dog was there first and my girl Olive came and laid next to her, got up, and came right back to the same spot!
My boy bun does not have this same relationship though…

 

[JBun]

I would scoop up the poop and put it right in front of him in his area, so that he understands that you aren't allowing him to claim this other space. So if he's sitting in his litter box, put it there, or where ever he's sitting in his area.

To strengthen the relationship between your dog and your bun, I would use similar techniques to what is used to bond rabbits. So sit in a smaller area or room with dog and rabbits there, and supervise their interactions(always done with all animals safety first in mind). The smaller area is needed so there is closer interaction and less chance to just avoid interaction with one another. Using veggie feeding time can be a good activity to have them in close proximity, and for your bun to develop a positive association with your dog.

With rabbits and building a trusting relationship, it's all about time spent near each other. It applies to rabbits developing relationships with each other, developing relationships with us, and with other animals as well. It's also how the hierarchy is sorted out and established, which is a necessary aspect to occur for a relationship to progress and for a rabbit to feel secure with their place in that hierarchy.

With using veg and pellets for treat training, the veg and pellets is the reward, and also is the way to help your bun associate your greater dominance in the group with being the dispenser and controller of the food. I wouldn't include petting when you're doing this part, as it could confuse the issue.

You can still be 'top bun' of the group and give pets(aka. grooming) to your bun without it affecting your social standing. In my rabbit group of 6, the boss bun was often the first to groom the other rabbits, though he also gladly accepted grooming in return. The difference was that when he groomed the other rabbits, it was more of a demand that they comply and not a request. He would even use his head and body to keep them in place to make sure they complied with him wanting to groom them. So he decided and they didn't really have a choice, though they almost always happily complied

They could also lay their heads down near or under his head to ask for grooming, but they could never be insistent about it by nipping to get his attention or forcefully shoving their head under his. It was always done so that it was clearly a request on their part and if he felt like grooming them he would, or he would hop away if he didn't feel like it. So it's applying that same body language. If your rabbit is acting insistent on you petting him, that's when you don't want to do it, and in fact I would scoot him away and claim his space to reinforce your dominance. If he requests you pet him by laying his head down or lightly nudging you, then it shouldn't affect him seeing you as top bun. Or if you go up to him first and start petting, this should also be fine.

I can't say if any of this will work. It really all depends on an individual rabbits personality. But this is generally how rabbit body language and behavior works, so in theory this is how to best try and achieve positive results.

 

[MeggyM]

Great tips on bonding him with my dog, I'd like to try that!
Do you think it's maybe best to work on one bond at a time? And since he acts out his dominance with me so much, probably best to start with our bond..?

I have been sort of "chasing/scooting" him back to his litter box when he poops in the house, because the litter box is the only place I want him to go intentionally.
I figure that is much more effective than picking him up and taking him to his litter box. What do you think about making him hop back to his litter box vs picking up and placing?
He is rebelling by peeing outside of his box more, but I kind of expected that push back at first so that's ok.

I don't really do tricks with them but I have been giving pellets and veggies when they come when called, hopefully that will be good enough to send the message that I control the food...??

He gets pretty angry sometimes when I hold him in place to pet him and sometimes pees right after I let him go to prove a point. However, I hold him in place when were sitting on the couch or bed because he will either mark the area immediately or pee out of anger. So I'll try giving pets when he's on the ground.

I've been ignoring him sometimes when he comes over for pets and going up to him to give a few pets unexpected.

I'll let you know how this all goes! It is great advice and definitely worth a full effort! Especially since nothing else has worked to address the marking.

 

[JBun]

If you want to work on your bond first, that works. You may even find that this alone solves the territorial marking and you don't have to do much of anything with your dog and bun.

Yes, you don't want to pick him up. That's not something rabbits do with each other, it's something a predator does to them. It would defeat what you're trying to accomplish, and can affect his trust in you and your relationship. Picking up is best avoided completely, except when absolutely necessary such as for health checks, or if a rabbit has learned to trust and willingly comes wanting to be held. I would suggest to calmly scoot/escort, gently but firmly and carefully. You don't want to frighten him or risk injury. You want him to recognize you are the 'boss bun' telling him to move where you want, not run out of fear.

If he dashes off, you don't want this to become a chase. Dominant rabbits will chase a subordinate, but only to an extent. Once the subordinate rabbit moves away or out of sight, the dominant rabbit will generally stop. So if he'll just scoot along to his litter box with you gently but firmly ushering him there, then that's the ideal way to do it. But if he darts away, I would leave it there and not start up a chase to try and get him to the litter box.

Training him to do tricks isn't necessary unless he's acting pushy about the treats. Then teaching him tricks with a treat as the reward, may help to get him to focus on want he needs to do to be rewarded with a treat instead of just getting you to give him what he wants when he wants. Handing out his food and treats is mainly to help him understand that you are the boss and all good things come from you.

I wouldn't suggest holding in place while petting. Using force with rabbits isn't recommended, especially if this could result in causing any injury. Plus it doesn't work. It generally will cause a negative response of fear, avoidance, and/or aggression. Which you don't want him to develop a negative response to you petting him.

The rabbit body language with this is different. They can't make another rabbit stay in place. They can just be insistent, and even that is short term with the time being a few seconds. But if the other rabbit doesn't want to comply, they can either challenge and get into a fight, or run off and avoid the situation. You just don't want him feeling trapped and start to respond aggressively towards you or avoid you.

With my dominant rabbit having the other subordinate rabbits hold still so he could groom them, they could always run to another part of their enclosure to get away from him if they wanted. He would hop up to them with his head over theirs and immediately start grooming. If they tried to move a few hops away, he would stay with them and use his body to try and get them to hold still, and keep on grooming. But if they really wanted to get away and not be groomed, they could always leave that area and he would let them. Now, they almost always wanted to stay and be groomed by him, but it was never something that was absolutely forced.

Keep in mind that this behavior is happening with an already established trust and hierarchy in a bonded rabbit group. This won't work the same if there isn't already a trusting relationship established. Though in your case it sounds like you do already have this. With your bun, you're trying to convince him that he should step aside and let you be 'top bun', not instigate an all out challenge for dominance.

Holding him in place for pets is too much and not in line with normal rabbit behavior, which is the aim, to show him what you want from him and will allow, by using the body language and behavior he knows and understands. I would suggest sticking with not responding when he's trying to insist you pet him, and only give pets when he's not pushy about it, or when you come up to him to give them first and then only if he willingly accepts and wants you to pet him. If he doesn't want you to and hops away, you should let him.

The issue with the couch, if he's trying to mark on the couch, the best response is to either completely deny him access to the couch, or scoot him back off(carefully) or back to his area when he tries to mark.

If you haven't ever read Language of Lagamorphs, it has good info on rabbit behavior and communication.

https://www.rabbitsonline.net/threads/language-of-lagomorphs-is-it-gone-forever.105436/

 

[MeggyM]

Gotcha.
I realize now how "holding him in place" comes across. Let me explain and see what you think about it after.

Finn is very different from most rabbits I've been around, including my female, Olive.
He is crazy about pets and attention. He seems fearless and has never run from me, so when I scoot him away he lags behind and I have to gently, but firmly, keep scooting him all the way into the litter box. So don't worry, I was using the word chase incorrectly, it has never actually been a chase. I wouldn't want to scare him like that, though I'm not sure I even could.

I do, however, pick him and hold him quite frequently. He shows no protest to this because he loves to be pet so much, so as long as he is being pet while held he's a happy boy. When I put him down he usually just stays where I sat him and puts his head down for more pets, that’s how I know he wasn’t bothered by being held. He will run up to me while I'm sitting and hop in my lap for pets. He will stop eating to receive some head pets. He's just that kind of a rabbit. Rest assured, I am very careful and make sure to lower him to the ground before setting down and am very safe in my handling of him. My female also loves pets and attention but she has a more standard rabbit temperament and hops away when she is not interested, just like you said yours do when they don’t want to be groomed by the dominance one. I never pick her up and would never hold her in place while petting - that would absolutely scare her and make her less trusting of me.

Finn can be very demanding and will actually nip at you if you stop petting him/usually his head for even a second. He's gotten better at this but will still make a sort of fake lunge at you without actually bitting.

As for holding him in place, let me explain!
I don’t always want to sit on the floor to pet them, so sometimes I will bring Finn on my bed or the couch for a while, but if I am not holding him he will pee on the couch or bed so he is only allowed on them in my lap or arms. Finn we be completely content being help and pet, then I will stop petting him for an instance and he will jump up. When I’m in my bed I do stop him by blocking him and carefully pull him quickly but gently back onto my lap while I continue to pet him. 9 times out of 10 he will settle right down and start grinding his teeth in delight, fall asleep and grind more in his dreams, it’s adorable, but if I let him go he often pees on my bed immediately before I can lift him off safely to the ground, since it is higher than I would like him jumping down from. Sometimes I do this a few times, though never back to back, because if I was scooting him back to me after every few seconds he obviously doesn’t want to be held. If he doesn’t settle down right away and look like he is now enjoying the pets I put him back on the floor.

I know this is not usual rabbit handling and like I mentioned I wouldn’t dare try anything of the sorts on my other bun, but none of this has seemed unsafe, or effected our bond negatively, so I've continued to hold him and watch for signs that he wants down and always respect that. That being said, I am here trying to work on our bond/hierarchy, so I’m open to honest opinions and feedback and do appreciate them.

 

[JBun]

It sounds like he's one of the rare rabbits that doesn't mind being held then. But when it comes to trying to establish your place as 'top bun', I would still suggest only ushering/scooting, as picking up may confuse the issue.

I wouldn't worry too much about momentary lunging, because he's stopping himself and not following through by nipping. He's at least rethinking what he was going to do. I would suggest to make sure to not do anything like petting or moving away from him directly after he has tried to lunge, and maybe scoot him from his spot and claim it just to make a point. I think as you keep reinforcing this, he will continue to improve and eventually not even think about lunging anymore.

With holding him on the couch or bed, since he likes you holding him and petting him, I would make sure to put him right back off the couch/bed when you're done petting. This way you won't risk the peeing and marking behavior, and will keep him being allowed up there with you, as a positive experience of petting him. Though there is an alternative thing you could try. You could try having a litter box up there with you and see if he'll pee in the litter box instead of trying to pee on the couch. Sometimes it's not about marking the couch, but that they get too relaxed from the petting, and then have to pee before they can make it back to the litter box. Might be worth a try.

 

[MeggyM]

Got it, no more picking up to put in the litter box, only scooting.
Yes, I do put him down of the bed or couch immediately.

Update: He's doing a little better sometimes but he is still peeing and pooping outside the litter box a lot.