Stomach filler food

[Liung]

So at the last vet appointment (at the Ontario Veterinary College Companion Animal Hospital! Basically the place all veterinarians in Ontario come from, specialists and experts bursting through the seams, which was very cool) I was emailed a copy of the patient charts from the appointment, which was awesome. I got to see all the observations and conclusions the vet made about Lahi and Delilah!

I was a little shocked, however, to see that Delilah had been rated 8/9 for body condition. She’s chubby! I know she’s chubby! But surely she’s not THAT chubby?! I can still feel her ribs and vertebrae fairly easily! Also, Lahi got rated 5/9, and he’s actually super skinny. 11 years old (12 come January) and his vertebrae are painfully pointy. So I think both of them had their weight overestimated a bit.

For those who are unfamiliar with this scoring system, it’s a 1-9 scale, 1 being about to expire from starvation, 9 being excessively dangerously obese. 5 is the ideal, though for active dogs 4 is also okay. It’s measured essentially by their dorsal silhouette and by how easy it is to feel their spine and ribs. You can google it and get mostly cats and dogs but it applies to all animals.

In any case after that I’ve been trying to be more careful to watch how much pellets I’ve been feeding. Delilah tends to try to inhale her food and Lahi is more of a grazer, and Lahi gets depressed if they’re separated, so to keep food mostly well distributed between them I’ve been putting all their pellets in a cat treat ball. Lahi is exceedingly skilled at it (actually he amazes me, he very clearly understands exactly how it works to the point that if it hits a wall, he’ll pick it up with his mouth and move it back to an open space of the floor) whereas it seems that as far as Delilah is concerned, it’s a mysterious object that magically produces food if she smacks it hard enough. It’s great! Good activity for them, they have to work for their food, and Delilah doesn’t get to hog it.

They also get glucosamine tablets every morning and night (Oxbow’s Natural Science Joint Support) which has done wonders for Lahi’s creaky legs, greens and veggies whenever I can manage (which is unfortunately not as often as I’d like) and of course 24/7 access to as much hay as their furry hearts desire. Right now it’s Timothy but they seem to prefer Orchard Grass, so once I’ve finished my 10lb box of Timothy I’ll be switching.

And yet, Delilah continues to act as though she is S T A R V I N G MUMMY PLEEEEEEASE IF YOU DON’T FEED ME I’M GOING TO DIEEEEEEEEEEEE

Last night I gave them their pellets, came back in under 10 minutes and the treat ball was already empty. Even Lahi is being a begging beggar these days.

Now, I know they should be fine. They have hay. They have all the hay they possibly could want. But seriously if they get more frantic over their pellets I’m worried one of them is going to start a fight!

I work at a pet food store, and when switching someone from a low-quality food to a high-quality food, of course they’re going to have to feed their dog less. And I’ll tell them, “your dog won’t understand this, and until their stomach shrinks, they’ll be really hungry even after eating. They’ll beg at you. Don’t give in! They will insist to you that they are starving! Don’t believe them! And if you really can’t resist and feel awful for them going hungry, we have some canned pumpkin and sweet potato that will make them feel full without making them fat.”

And as I was despairing last night at Lahi and Delilah’s Dickens-esque performance, it occurred to me, couldn’t I do the same for them?? Pumpkin is high fiber, being canned it’s also high moisture, what’s not to like?

But I’m a little worried it’s going to be too high sugar for bunnies. Thoughts? What can I give the buns so they’re not constantly trying to get stepped on begging for food?

 

[Preitler]

Hm, why pellets, they aren't really stomach fillers. I mean, they are a spinoff from industrial meat production, ok, very convienient, adapted for pets and so, but not something rabbits really need. That "High quality" food is mostly advertisment. Well, on the other hand, pretty bad stuff is sold too.

Dried nettles, apple leafs, and other types of hay work as treat too.

Try different brands of hay (mine like the one from a local farmer best), if possible green forage (grass, weeds) are an option. Twigs and branches to gnaw on, like willow, hasel or apple, great to keep them occupied.

Well, this is one of the best websites about that topic I know:
https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/articles/free-food-for-rabbits

 

[Popsicles]

The difference with rabbits compared to dogs and cats, is that dogs and cats only have the meal we give them once/twice a day.. whereas if a rabbit is still hungry, they can fill up on hay. So if they were thaaaaat hungry they’d fill up with hay. They are probably just being cheeky and trying their luck, my bunny would eat pellets all day if I let her and she attacks every time we open the fridge, you just have to not give in!
Canned pumpkin certainly wouldn’t help with the weight loss.

 

[Liung]

@Preitler no no trust me there is a VAST difference between qualities of dog food. We’ve been switching people off Royal Canin, to convince them they should I show them the ingredients list. First ingredient is some kind of grain, usually brewers rice, second ingredient is also usually a grain, then chicken byproduct meal (everything about a chicken that isn’t what you would call “meat”, like beaks and feet and bones), and then at least three different types of cellulose (which in dog food is sawdust, as a filler). Moreover, most basic brands are “pet food grade” ingredients—anything that wasn’t considered safe or good enough for human food. The store I work at has only brands made from human grade ingredients.

Anyway I feed my buns pellets because I know I don’t feed them enough greens and veggies to cover their nutritional needs in terms of vitamins and minerals, and so the pellets ensure they don’t get any dire nutrient deficiencies. I feed Versele Laga Complete Cuni Adult, which is one of the better foods in terms of nutrient panel. There’s a wonderful food comparison chart made by The Rabbit House that lays out what a rabbit needs and compares all the different brands.

So I know pellets are not supposed to make them feel full and they should be filling up on hay but they’re so seriously frantic for their pellets I’m just trying to think of what I could give them to stem that urgency without making them fat. I think switching the hay will help a lot, they seem much more interested in pulling the Timothy hay out of the hay box and making a tremendous mess than actually eating it.

Or, rather, without making Delilah fat. Lahi could stand to go up half a pound. I miss when he was 5lbs, he’s been steadily losing weight over the last few years and now he’s hovering just around 4lbs. He’s a dwarf mix, so that’s a lot.

I did get a small bag of alfalfa hay for Lahi, I was reading the very thorough article on elderbuns on Small Pet Select and it said that alfalfa hay, while not suitable for adults, can be given to elderbuns to help them keep up their weight. He’s never had kidney issues so hopefully it’ll be fine to give him a little bit, and he seems to like it. Give him a couple hours by himself to munch on some in a bowl.

So pumpkin? Too much sugar?

 

[Popsicles]

Pumpkin far too much sugar, you’d be better off going back to more pellets than substituting for pumpkin, if you really want to give them more. I appreciate they’re frantic for pellets but sometimes got to be cruel to be kind! If you are really worried about it, try just gradually cutting down the pellets rather than taking away a lot in one go. But truly, they will get used to the lack of pellets, I wouldn’t substitute them, personally.
If you really want to substitute, the best substitute would be fresh greens and herbs, but as you said you struggle to give those.

 

[Blue eyes]

I agree that you needn't worry about them being frantic for pellets. I consider that pretty normal for most rabbits when those pellets are limited. They just aren't used to being so limited. They'll catch on IF you don't give in.

I rather like them being crazy nuts for their pellets. It is how I get them in the cage each night. I had to be quick putting pellets down for one rabbit in particular because she would knock the scoop out of my hand in her excitement.

Give them time to get used to it.

 

[Liung]

I don’t even feel like I’m giving them that much less than I normally would. But actually after some thought, perhaps the bowl vs ball feeding method has something to do with it. They can’t just eat until their stomach is full, they have to actually work for it and their stomachs have time to digest as they’re eating, so that could be part of it. And technically the ball is rewarding frantic behaviour. Delilah has gone from just nudging the ball to using her paws to smack it halfway across the room—since she doesn’t actually know the trick to getting it to flip upside down like Lahi does, smacking it actually has more success than just randomly pushing it around with her nose. Much more violent, but effective. I was so shocked yesterday they’d managed to empty the ball in 10 minutes, it used to take them at least half an hour.

I also have a suspicion my fiancé has been feeding them outside of mealtimes—this is his first time living with them full-time instead of just visiting, and he knows not the power of the begging eyes. He also doesn’t like when Delilah gets overly clingy and trying to crawl all over him, since he’s allergic to fur, so I wouldn’t be surprised if he feeds her just to get her to leave him alone. I’ve told him she needs to have her weight watched but he’s not got the greatest mentality surrounding proper pet nutrition. His family has a dog that gets fed treats nonstop, barely touches his kibble, and their vet assures them Bubba is a healthy weight and keep doing what they’re doing. It drives me up the wall, that dog can go three days without needing to refill his bowl and is still chubby because of how much treats he gets.

DO NOT RESPOND TO BAD BEHAVIOUR WITH FOOD YOU ARE JUST REINFORCING IT NO STOP

Can basic psychology be mandatory learning in schools? Please?

But I still don’t know why Lahi has become more frantic for pellets. He’s never been as food-motivated as Delilah. Sometimes I would separate them for the night to make sure Lahi could eat without Delilah licking the bowl clean. It would not be unusual for there to still be food in his bowl a couple hours later, while Delilah has vacuumed hers up in under 3 minutes. Lahi’s a grazer. He’s blindingly smart but teaching him tricks takes about the same amount of time as Delilah (who is really, really not the brightest bulb) because he’s just not that interested in food usually. Delilah takes forever to understand what I want from her but she WOULD DO ANYTHING FOR FOOD TELL ME YOU WANT MY PAW HAVE BOTH YOU WANT KISSES LET ME SHOVE MY WHISKERS UP YOUR NOSE

Lahi’s like, “you want to TOUCH MY PAW um no keep your damn food. I’ll wait. You’ll feed me eventually. Kisses? Well. Maybe. Can I get away with air kisses? Yes? Yes? Ughhhhh why do you insist on—okay fine for oat groat you get a kiss. ONE. Don’t push your luck.”

But he’s not like that anymore. He’s still not at Delilah levels of urgency, but he wants his food NOW and isn’t content to wait for it.

 

[Jenny Durling]

. Delilah takes forever to understand what I want from her but she WOULD DO ANYTHING FOR FOOD TELL ME YOU WANT MY PAW HAVE BOTH YOU WANT KISSES LET ME SHOVE MY WHISKERS UP YOUR NOSE

Lahi’s like, “you want to TOUCH MY PAW um no keep your **** food. I’ll wait. You’ll feed me eventually. Kisses? Well. Maybe. Can I get away with air kisses? Yes? Yes? Ughhhhh why do you insist on—okay fine for oat groat you get a kiss. ONE. Don’t push your luck.”

LOL!! I love these descriptions! I have two buns who are similar to your. Honestly, this just shows how different rabbits can be from each other just like people and other animals. My Rocky is the beggar who acts like he's never seen food before, and Natasha is much less food motivated (and not so bright either!). Honestly, I sometimes think Rocky's appetite simply has no off switch!

Like you, I give pellets more as treats. We have a few different games we play regularly and they definitely get all of the pellets they might need. When Rocky was getting a little tubby, I started substituting other things for some of those pellets. You mentioned not really being able to afford alot of fresh veggies for your buns but it's not hard to get some for free. I have an organic garden so that certainly helps, but I also make a weekly trip to the local farmer's market. I simply ask the various vendors if they have greens they are planning to throw away and I get tons of stuff. I ask at regular stores as well. The next time you are at the grocery store, ask someone working in the produce aisle if they have any scraps for your animals. I have seriously NEVER been turned away without any food for my animals. Usually I'm give a big box or even two! I've got a ton of other animals or I wouldn't take that much. At the farmer's market I'm offered way more than I ever need and I won't take it all as there are other animal parents and rescue organizations who request veggies as well.

SO - once you get more veggies, you have more options for what to give for meals as well as treats. Don't forget that your bunnies can eat alot of what you eat yourself too. When I'm cooking, I set aside the scrap things I once threw away or composted and some of these things replace the pellets as treats. Last night the buns got the tips of green beans and leaves from Brussels sprouts that were removed after cleaning that we weren't going to be eating ourselves. They are just as happy to play for these things as they are for pellets. I do still give them their "bunny salad" twice daily which is what I use to get them to go back inside.

At any rate, for my buns it's definitely too many pellets or sweet treats (carrots, banana chips, etc) that put the weight on. I've never seen a rabbit get fat off of carrot tops and spinach! LOL!

 

[majorv]

If Lahi is underweight there’s no reason why you can’t increase his pellets, but you’d have to separate him temporarily to do it. As rabbits get older it can be harder to keep weight on them.

 

[Liung]

You mentioned not really being able to afford alot of fresh veggies for your buns but it's not hard to get some for free. I have an organic garden so that certainly helps, but I also make a weekly trip to the local farmer's market. I simply ask the various vendors if they have greens they are planning to throw away and I get tons of stuff. I ask at regular stores as well. The next time you are at the grocery store, ask someone working in the produce aisle if they have any scraps for your animals. I have seriously NEVER been turned away without any food for my animals. Usually I'm give a big box or even two! I've got a ton of other animals or I wouldn't take that much. At the farmer's market I'm offered way more than I ever need and I won't take it all as there are other animal parents and rescue organizations who request veggies as well.

SO - once you get more veggies, you have more options for what to give for meals as well as treats. Don't forget that your bunnies can eat alot of what you eat yourself too. When I'm cooking, I set aside the scrap things I once threw away or composted and some of these things replace the pellets as treats. Last night the buns got the tips of green beans and leaves from Brussels sprouts that were removed after cleaning that we weren't going to be eating ourselves.

That’s a great idea, I was thinking about doing that in my previous city—my former college runs a culinary school and has vegetable fields where they grow all the herbs and veggies they use in their restaurant, and I thought about going in to ask for the leftovers, but never got around to it. My new city I’ve been run off my feet getting settled in, too busy to think about going out much, I’ve only been out to eat in TWO restaurants and I’ve been here four months now! COME ON!—and despite everyone swearing I need to go to the farmer’s market, it’s only open on Saturdays until noon, and I have a circadian rhythm disorder that makes mornings basically impossible for me! *shakes fist at morning people*

My solution I came up with to “********* why are organic greens so expensive” is “grow my own”. Delilah can munch through a $7 box of mixed spring greens in under half an hour by herself, Miss Piggy. So I have an herb box of rosemary, thyme and parsley, I tried to grow carrot plants but some spider mites got them JUST as I was about to put them in the bunny room. I rigged up a metal grate over the pot so that the buns would be able to munch on them as they grew without killing the plants. Next spring I’m going to try planting some lettuce varieties, and I’ve been eyeing the cat grass seeds my work has for sale. It’s just oat grass, hopefully the grass doesn’t have the same fattening kidney-clogging properties as the seeds.

Their new condo is also a former wall unit that has display lights on the upper shelves. The plan is to section off the back of those shelves with large-space chicken wire and put in grow lights so that Lahi and Delilah have their own garden to eat from.

And of course I give them whatever veggie scraps I cook with. I always buy carrots with the greens still on them. Keeps them fresher anyway! Unfortunately I tend to be more of a “microwave dinner” sort of person, totally lacking the energy most days to do full-fledged home-cooked meals. (Re: sleeping disorder. Essentially my brain has decided that light cues aren’t a thing, and has stuck me into a permanent state of jet lag.)

 

[Liung]

Lahi’s desire for food has reached critical—I was putting some antiseptic wash on his ear (he’s got a warty lump that’s scheduled for surgery next week, poor old man) and with him still in my lap, reached for the supplement tablets in the hope that if I already had them in hand I could immediately give him one once I put him down to hopefully reduce his loathing of me.

To my shock, as I went to lift him up, he reached forward and took the tablet, and started eating it WHILE STILL IN MY LAP

Lahi HATES being touched. He DESPISES being touched. He’s had so many health problems that his response to being placed on a raised flat table surface is “OH GOD THE VET AGAIN” and goes completely limp and pliable. While in my lap he’s completely boneless, sometimes doesn’t even bother to keep his head up, just goes completely limp and lets me do whatever because he just hates being touched THAT MUCH that he knows he’ll get down faster if he doesn’t resist. Sometimes while at the vet I can get him to demonstrate his chewing action by shoving hay at him until he starts angrily shredding it—I taught him years ago to cooperate with force feeding by getting him to understand that eating what I’m giving him is the way to get put down, teaching him to do that makes dealing with GI Stasis SO MUCH EASIER.

But literally he hates being touched and picked up and handled SO MUCH that “you get left alone” is a strong and reliable reinforcer for training him.

And without prompting he took the tablet from me happily and eagerly, while in my lap. And then another. And then a THIRD. And then I put him down and he STUCK AROUND WAITING FOR MORE.

Who is this bunny and what has he done with Lahi

 

[Liung]

And also my hubby was shredding some paper and asked if it was safe to give to bunnies.

“As long as it doesn’t have staples in it!”

He thought he’d get to see them frolicking like those dogs on the internet videos dashing through piles of leaves. I thought they might enjoy tunneling through it after I stuck it under a basket. We got to laugh at Lahi being a ridiculous fusspot, carefully moving individual prices of paper for a while, and then they kinda mostly lost interest.

And then, inspiration!


Scatter food through it, it’s now a fun forage activity that they don’t nearly fight over. They’re good about not eating the paper, they’ll nibble on it if they think it’s in their way but I haven’t seen them actually consume any. So now they’re happily rifling through it for their food, without shoving each other around for access. \o/