Snuffles? Or something else?

[ra7751]

Kris--->WELL SAID!!!!! You get multiple gold stars from me.

And as Jade said, pasteurella can be long term. I treated tilt in one of our rabbits for eight months. And little Danny, who nearly lost his eye to pasteurella, we have kept the "genie in the bottle" now for over five years.

The key in any treatment for any species is to have good information, a pinpoint diagnosis and a sound treatment protocol based on clinical facts. I know personally that much more is known about treating rabbits. When I first started, it was considered unsafe to offer any antibiotics to rabbits....and look where the top end medical people are now....the progress is amazing and is continuing. We just need to get the word out. And that word is coming by graduating vet students that have been exposed to these species. It will take time, but more and more young vets do not have the preconceived notions that some of the older doctors have regarding rabbits and other exotics. That is going to be a win-win for all of us.

Randy

 

[Lord of the Knight Rabbitry]

Tinkerbell Rabbitry wrote:

just wanted to let you know that snuffles is highly contajus. I had a rabbit that had it, i treated him with anti-botics and he would look better when he came off but it came right back again. if your rabbit is around other rabbits quareteen it imeadetly. i would put the rabbit down imeadetly. taking them to the vet wont help, there is no cure for snuffles. also keep in mind that i selectively breed rabbits.


-hannah

I agree.

 

[TinysMom]

Lord of the Knight Rabbitry wrote:

Tinkerbell Rabbitry wrote:

just wanted to let you know that snuffles is highly contajus. I had a rabbit that had it, i treated him with anti-botics and he would look better when he came off but it came right back again. if your rabbit is around other rabbits quareteen it imeadetly. i would put the rabbit down imeadetly. taking them to the vet wont help, there is no cure for snuffles. also keep in mind that i selectively breed rabbits.


-hannah

I agree.

In that case - I'm glad you're here - you both can learn from Randy (ra7751) who work with instructors at one of the top vet schools in the country - we are so blessed to have him and our other infirmary mods who research to find the MOST CURRENT information to help our members.

Just as we would not want a doctor to treat one of our family members with outdated medical information (imagine treating cancer with technology and information from 40 years ago??) - we don't want our vets who aren't "up to date" on rabbits since they're an exotic animal - treating them with outdated information.

So I'm glad you're here cause you can learn along with the rest of us!

 

[Tinkerbell Rabbitry]

I do understand that Pasteurella is treatable, but to my understanding difficult to eradicate. I have not had to deal with abscesses, just the respiratory infection commonly known as snuffles.
http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00294.htm

http://www.rabbit.org/care/pasteurella.html

Merck Veterinary Manual:
Treatment is difficult and may not eradicate the organism. Antibiotics seem to provide only temporary remission, and the next stress (eg, kindling) may cause relapse. Enrofloxacin (200 mg/L of drinking water for 14 days or 5-10 mg/kg parenteral, bid for 14 days) is effective for upper respiratory P multocida infections. Tilmicosin (25 mg/kg, SC) has been reported as an effective treatment for pasteurellosis. Procaine penicillin (60,000 IU/kg for 10 days) was recommended for indiviual rabbits, but its use should be cautioned as deaths from enterotoxemia often follow penicillin administration.

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/171317.htm

Randy said--
"Do you go in a public restroom maybe at a Wal-Mart or McDonalds? Much more likely to catch something there that is much nastier than pasteurella. But if something compromises the immune system, the genie can come out of the bottle. That is why they call it an "opportunistic bacteria". Stress, injury, bad living conditions, other infections....anything that stresses the immune system can allow pasteurella to show itself."

I totally agree, every time you go to the grocery store, you are taking a chance of catching some kind of bug. That's why we strive to keep our immune systems healthy. The same as in our rabbitry. Clean cages, good diet, plenty of exercise, lots of TLC, clean fresh water ect. But there are times when rabbits become stressed (kindling, showing, breeding, going to a new home) and infection or disease can set in, no matter how well we care for them. That's just the nature of disease and illness.

Randy said--
"I have access to technical information that very few outside the veterinary world has access to. I routinely see the old and outdated information still out there."

Please share this information with us. I am always willing to learn and would very much like to have access to good updated information. I do agree that much of the information out there is outmoded and outdated. There is a lot to sift through. One of the issues we have struggled with is who's information do we trust? My personal vet (who was rated one of the top vets in my state), friends who are long time rabbit breeders, veterinary journals, internet sources, anecdotal stories, ect, who oftentimes disagree.

Another issue to consider is expense. We love all our animals, 2 dogs, 12 rabbits and a gerbil and go through much much time and expense to keep them happy and healthy. But there is a limit to what we can do as far as veterinary expenses. We have a friend who spent over $1,000 on her favorite rabbit for several rounds of testing and medication for snuffles with no success.

What about the serious, responsible breeder whose aim it is to breed good quality, disease resistant animals for pets and showing. (we DO NOT kill "un-showable" rabbits as some big breeders do,we find good homes for them as pets) One round of illness in our rabbitry could be a financial, not to mention emotional catastrophe. Our rabbitry is not a money making business, we love raising rabbits, it actually costs much more than we are making.

I am not a vet and would hesitate to medicate my rabbits myself with any kind of injection as I do not know the particular properties of each antibiotic and dosages. Some injectable antibiotics are available in our local Tractor Supply Store. But most of these are not for use in rabbits, only cattle, pigs and chickens. We have given them antibiotic in their water. But these are not as effective as injections.

OK, I've rattled on quite a bit, but here are my concerns/questions in a nutshell:

1. Where and how do we find good current information that is understandable to the layman.
2. How do we treat our bunnies with serious infections without going broke.
3. Each of us has to make our own decision for our individual situations. (we got several nasty e-mails because we euthanized our sick bunny after treatment failed) Let's help each other with compassion and understanding. We are all learning, make mistakes and no-one has the perfectly right answer.

Hannah
(P.S. My mom helped me write these last two posts because of the nasty e-mails)

 

[TinysMom]

Tinkerbell Rabbitry wrote:

Please share this information with us. I am always willing to learn and would very much like to have access to good updated information. I do agree that much of the information out there is outmoded and outdated. There is a lot to sift through. One of the issues we have struggled with is who's information do we trust? My personal vet (who was rated one of the top vets in my state), friends who are long time rabbit breeders, veterinary journals, internet sources, anecdotal stories, ect, who oftentimes disagree.

and


1. Where and how do we find good current information that is understandable to the layman.
2. How do we treat our bunnies with serious infections without going broke.
3. Each of us has to make our own decision for our individual situations. (we got several nasty e-mails because we euthanized our sick bunny after treatment failed) Let's help each other with compassion and understanding. We are all learning, make mistakes and no-one has the perfectly right answer.

Hannah
(P.S. My mom helped me write these last two posts because of the nasty e-mails)

I want to say that it is the Duke University vet school instructors that Randy deals with on a regular basis - these are the people who train the new vets. I think he works with their students too on many exotic animals that come into his rescue.

Perhaps you will want to click on Randy's name to pull up his profile and read through many of his posts. You will find them very informative.

As far as nasty emails - I apologize for that. We understand on this forum that breeders oftentimes may have to treat their rabbits differently than pet owners....and we try to encourage non-breeders to understand that there are differences.

HOWEVER, we also do not appreciate it when someone tells someone else they "MUST" put their rabbit down. In this forum - we do all we can to save all the bunnies.....versus listening to much of that "old school" of thought.

I encourage you to go through and read some of Randy's prior posts - you will find we highly appreciate his up-to-date knowledge and experience as he works with those who are learning the most current information for rabbits.

 

[Kris Wabbits]

Every animal will react different, but even if something can't be cured, like many humans treatments for humans, we NEVER give up on them, we don't tell them to just hang themselfs to get it over with it as eventually they will die, so why should we give up on a pet we adore and love?

Like headtilt with rabbits, it started iwth an inner ear infection with fluffies, we rushed him to the hospital. We were so worried for him!!!! After a few days we could take him home with a bill and medication. He was very weak and looked pathatic. Months and months pass as he slowly regained himself, and now he's a special head tilt boy.

But everyone has to realise breeders, show people, and an average people raising rabbits are also 100% different. A breeder would have no use for like a head tilt rabbit probably, but the average like Fluffies and Ringo, their humans would do everything for their buns. Just like a human through cancer, it wouldn't matter, they'd do the same thing, do everything they can for the bun.

You can't replace a human being, and u can't replace a loved pet like a rabbit. They all live in our hearts forever, regardless the money spent on them. People shell out tons of money for treatments for themselfs, so what's the difference with a pet? To me it's the same thing, i want myself to get well and i want my pets to get well too, regardless.

We had a rabbit that had cancer, we did eventually put her down, but it wasn't "RIGHT NOW" this instant. She was still loveable, she was still eating and drinking. Only until she could barley eat/drink and it was hard on her did we opt to put her down. But she lived many happy months with the cancer (when we did learn it was), but she did love MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY years very much loved from her 6 weeks from the 'snake food' to when she was put down. This is what the vet told us to do, take her home, as she was still living and kicking, no need to put her down, but we were told that she would later on probably best to put her down later on when she's hurting.

 

[Kris Wabbits]

Well said TinysMom! I agree 100%, gold stars!! Most of us on this forum are probably the averge home user. Nothing we wouldn't do for our loved ones, humans or rabbits.

 

[tonyshuman]

Wabbitdad12 is treating one of his bunnies with injectable Pen-G with procaine that he got at Tractor Supply Co. Here is his blog: http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=42615&forum_id=6 . however, I would be cautious about doing this yourself, as a vet always will provide the best care, and doing a treatment incorrectly could lead to antibiotic resistance.

 

[Maureen Las]

TinysMom wrote:

Lord of the Knight Rabbitry wrote:

Tinkerbell Rabbitry wrote:

just wanted to let you know that snuffles is highly contajus. I had a rabbit that had it, i treated him with anti-botics and he would look better when he came off but it came right back again. if your rabbit is around other rabbits quareteen it imeadetly. i would put the rabbit down imeadetly. taking them to the vet wont help, there is no cure for snuffles. also keep in mind that i selectively breed rabbits.


-hannah

I agree.

In that case - I'm glad you're here - you both can learn from Randy (ra7751) who work with instructors at one of the top vet schools in the country - we are so blessed to have him and our other infirmary mods who research to find the MOST CURRENT information to help our members.

Just as we would not want a doctor to treat one of our family members with outdated medical information (imagine treating cancer with technology and information from 40 years ago??) - we don't want our vets who aren't "up to date" on rabbits since they're an exotic animal - treating them with outdated information.

So I'm glad you're here cause you can learn along with the rest of us!

Well said Peg:highfive:

I became a member of this forum in 2005 ; I had pet rabbits but knew next to nothing other than what one reads in pet rabbit books sold at petstores.
If a vet handed me baytril; I took the baytril and used it.
If it didn't work I agreed with the vet and felt bad about my poor hopeless rabbit.
Then I joined this forum and learned a world of knowledge that I never saw or knew existed.
Now many of my rabbits are treated with drugs that most ordinary non-exotic vets are not aware of.
I have talked to vets re. injectable penicillin and been rebuffed by a few but just recently found a woman vet studying dentistry who had just learned about this treatment from an exotics expert. She is now prescribing it.
At the present I have a 3.7 lb holland lop with an eye infection , He is awaiting dental surgery which will occur on the 14th of this month. he is on chlamphenical opthalmic salve for his eye prescribed by an exotics vet that I traveled to see. No one in my town would ever use chloramphenical nor do they even carry it as far as I know. If I had not traveled to an expert he would be dead now.He is also on injectable bicillin which was prescribed by the dental vet . I bought the bicillin at farm and fleet but was taught how to administer it properly by Randy .

Why would anyone post reasons why their rabbits shouldn't be cured if we are telling you that their is help out there and many rabbits have been cured because of
new advancements in medicine that we are privy to because we are so darn lucky to have Randy on this forum assisting us.

Many individuals on this forum alsohave vets that are also extremely rabbit knowledgeable but to those of us in rural areas this is a Godsend

stay on the forum awhile and you will understand what we are talking about..

 

[Tinkerbell Rabbitry]

TinysMom wrote:

I want to say that it is the Duke University vet school instructors that Randy deals with on a regular basis - these are the people who train the new vets. I think he works with their students too on many exotic animals that come into his rescue.

Perhaps you will want to click on Randy's name to pull up his profile and read through many of his posts. You will find them very informative.

As far as nasty emails - I apologize for that. We understand on this forum that breeders oftentimes may have to treat their rabbits differently than pet owners....and we try to encourage non-breeders to understand that there are differences.

HOWEVER, we also do not appreciate it when someone tells someone else they "MUST" put their rabbit down. In this forum - we do all we can to save all the bunnies.....versus listening to much of that "old school" of thought.

I encourage you to go through and read some of Randy's prior posts - you will find we highly appreciate his up-to-date knowledge and experience as he works with those who are learning the most current information for rabbits.

Thank you for the information. I will check it out.
I agree, my daughter spoke too quickly and came off as sounding a bit uncaring. I can assure you that is NOT the case, she agonized over Fireball. (the sick bunny we put to sleep) He was a beautiful red mini rex and she was sooo excited to have him! We did the best we could in caring for him and did not give up easily even when others told us to put him to sleep right away. We researched and researched, but at the time, did not find a lot of encouraging information. We kept him separated from the other buns so they would not get sick. But in the end, he did not get better and we did not want to see him continue to suffer. Nor did we want to infect our other rabbits.


Kris Wabbits said:
"But everyone has to realise breeders, show people, and an average people raising rabbits are also 100% different. ........You can't replace a human being, and u can't replace a loved pet like a rabbit. They all live in our hearts forever, regardless the money spent on them. People shell out tons of money for treatments for themselfs, so what's the difference with a pet? To me it's the same thing, i want myself to get well and i want my pets to get well too, regardless....."


We are different than your average breeder. We do enjoy showing and breeding, but our attitude towards our animals is much different than many breeders. It is also different than some in the House Rabbit community. We have had pet rabbits for several years and just started branching out into breeding. All our animals are loved members of our family, but they are animals....not human beings. Animals are wonderful and enrich our lives immensely, but the humans in our family do come first.

I have been in the situation of having to decide to get life sustaining medical care for one of my children or one of the animals. It's a horrible place to be in, but there is no question, the child gets the medical treatment and we do the best we can for the animal. That does not mean we are negligent by any means. We are here to learn and share our experiences. We also try to respect the opinions and decisions of others and would ask the same in return.

Angela (Hannah's Mom)

 

[NorthernAutumn]

Tinkerbell Rabbitry, I strongly promote you and your child to have separate accounts, so that we can keep track of commentary. From her writing style, I perceive she is a very young lady, with less life experience than yourself (understandably )
Having two separate accounts will clear any confusion on who is making which remarks, as it is unlikely that other members unacquainted with you will immediately understand that the account is shared.

I try very hard to link my resources onto RO when possible, especially in terms of medical advice. As you said, it is challenging to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to medical information, so broad statements based on someone's life experience can be taken many different ways.

Randy is an invaluable contributor of excellent rabbit medical info, and is at the forefront of his field. Personally, I defer to his knowledge (which beats mine by a good few miles :biggrin2. He has access to medical data that average users can never get through the internet.

There are also a number of respected users on here whose acquaintence you should make, including anyone with the word MOD by their name. All of them knowledgable, sharp cookies that RO members rely on heavily:biggrin2:

Lilangelhotots, I'm sorry to read that he's going back to the breeder... Any chance of getting him back?

 

[ra7751]

You know....Hannah and mom have raised some very interesting questions. Just how do you know if the info you have access to is "the latest and greatest"? I think that would be an interesting topic for discussion. I do have access to information that most people don't have direct access to. This is due to my network of veterinary professionals that have become involved in my rescue over the years. Nobody, and I mean nobody, knows everything. But the way we learn is by hashing these things out.....something said may ring a bell with someone else. Many of what people consider are my "great ideas" are the sum of the information I have learned from discussions with professionals and personal experience. I will bet that others have taken my ideas and expanded them too. We all learn.

I have been doing this a very long time....and I contiunue to hear new things....some of them are scary. Much of the information out there is from years ago when little was known about rabbits. There were very few vets that would even attempt to treat them. Those that did treated them like cats.....and there are still those that do. The use of cat type "hair ball"products is one issue that is old school. We now know that these products cause more problems. I had a vet tell a person that her rabbit was hypoglycemic and to give it Karo to raise it's blood sugar. It was seizing from an ear infection. The rabbit died. One of the publications Hannah mentioned (and a highly regarded publication) stated using Enrofloxacin (Baytril)in water. The only thing you get by adding something to the water is contaminated water. There is no way to guarantee that the proper working levels of medication can be reached when dosing in this fashion. And many of us have experienced bacteria resistant to Baytril. The VIN also has errors. For those of you that don't know, the VIN is the Veterinary Information Network. It is an internet based network of vets so they can communicate among each other. The public part (and I think Hannah referenced this) is called Veterinary Partner and it's available to the general public with sanitized information. The password protected VIN is where the really juicy stuff is. But we have found problems there too. I was recently put in an very bad position by a person with a sick rabbit that was caused by the use of oral Cephalexin....and the vet found that info on the VIN. It was wrong. There have been other posts to contradict the original....but it just shows that there can be wrong info even in the best places.

My point in all of that is that your best source of information is yourself. Do your research. That is how I started. You start seeing trends regarding certain issues. Over the years I have even learned to disect the pharmacology of a drug and understand how it works. Some work by killing bacteria, some work by preventing it from reproducing. Some work differently against Gram Positive bacteria than they do against Gram Negative bacteria.Will the drug be effective against anaerobes? Can the drug pass the blood/brain barrier? How does the drug affect other organs?How do pain meds work? How do they block receptors to get pain control. What are the contraindications when using drug combos?How many vets have seen atrue case of confirmed E Cuniculi? Very few. I treat with a much different drug than you willfind on most reference sites....I use Ponazuril (Marquis). Justthat sum of all the info I have gathered over the years. I have spent years researching this type of info....and spent much more time than vets that treat many other species.....I did rabbits specifically. Many of my vets are teaching vets at the local vet school (actually it's NC State University) andCarolina Veterinary Specialists. I have allthese wonderful sources to call on and get varying opinions on various issues.

I do share as much information as possible on this forum....and there are several reasons Iam unable to be totally specific in many cases. I have probably suggested some treatments that most likely shocked not only the rabbit people but vets also. In the case of pasteurella, I have been very successful in controlling it with one of several drugs.....Pen G (a specific concentration), Chloramphenicol, Zithromax and Convenia. And it is true...pasteurella can't really be eradicated...but it can bemanaged. I think too many people think drugs are the only treat.....but drugs are only part of the treatment. With the more stubborn infections (and Hannah mentioned this) is the possibility of things like stress. It is vitally important to do things to support the immune system....and the immune system is the bottom line in fighting any type of infection.

Another issue that has come up here is quite difficult for many....euthanasia. The bottom line here is that nobody can save them all. The first year I did wildlife....like so many that start rehabbing, I thought I could save the world. Fact is, that ain't going to happen. My personal feeling, be it domestic or wildlife, is that we make an obligation when we accept that animal to do what is in it's best interest. I have had to euthanize (both domestic and wildlife) but do so only to prevent suffering. Sometimes the best gift you can give is to release the animal from suffering. Most of the wildlife euthanasias are the result of trauman...but I have had to make that choice with some domestics. Personally, I do exhaust all possible medical means before I make that decision. But I have to be realistic...I have capabilities that few others have....and that comes into play. And that brings up another question....how do you know if euthanasia would be the right thing to do.

I would like to ask a favor of everyone that is following this thread. Step back and think about some of the issues that Hannah and her mom presented. I think they have some very legitimate points. These points are much like religion and politics....everyone will have an opinion. How do you know that the information you are relying on is accurate? How do you know the vet you are working with really understands how a rabbit works? Where can you turn to in an effort to find correct information? How do you know when it's time to euthanize? A comment was made on the viewpoints of a breeder with a sick animal vs. a house rabbit that is sick. What is the criteria for deciding how to protect an entire herd of rabbits in case of a gravely ill rabbit? Would a better relationship between breeders and rescue be a possible solution? I have rescued for years....most breeders and rescues are very good at what they do. I have only had problems with one breeder (and even the people in his group don't like him) and (believe it or not) problems with a couple of rescues....there are bad apples in everything. I have some really good friends that are breeders and we help each other all the time....I help them with their sick rabbits and they help me with my healthy rescues. Breeders and rescues can work together. Any thoughts on that?

Let's have some healthy and productive discussion on these topics. This is one of those rare opportunities in which the many varied opinions can lead to some very good conclusions. And as Angela mentioned, we all have opinions and we some listen to them all....we may not agree with them but we can agree to disagree. I think we can have some very productive discussions on these issues.

And Hannah....don't hesitate to contact me either on the forum or by PM if I can help you with any medical issues. I am always happy to share as much information as I can. It appears to me that you are doing your homework and want to learn....gold stars to you too.

Randy

 

[NorthernAutumn]

My suggestion for promotion of informational accountability on RO:
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=42812&forum_id=47

Please read and comment productively

 

[Tinkerbell Rabbitry]

Thanks Randy!!!! Lots of good info, I will certainly take this into consideration next time I think about putting a bun down because it has snuffles(I would probably adopt it out to some one who can care for it). I will also share this with other people who are faced with this difficult decision.

-Hannah
P.S. Do you mind if in the future I ask you Q's?

:thanks::highfive::great: