Ronnie has head tilt

[JadeIcing]

That is awesome! I am so glad he is getting better.

 

[tonyshuman]

:hug2:to you and Ronnie. I'm glad he's gradually getting better. You could give them the Oxbow 15/23 too if you're concerned about him putting on weight and he doesn't like the Manna Pro anymore. It's also an alfalfa pellet.

 

[kherrmann3]

I'm glad to hear that Ronnie has made it through this. Even if he is not fully recovered yet, he's being a little trooper!

 

[Little Bay Poo]

Over Thanksgiving break Chris is in Virginia Beach with his family and I am here giving Ronnie his shots and medications for a few days. Yesterday I got the shot right on the first try :biggrin2:

I had to go back to the vets today to pick up more Pen G. Our vet likes to give us the bare minimum or too little medication and make us come back to buy more because it's not enough to finish the prescription period. They pretty much suck every penny out of people through various methods, but the next closest vet is 40+ minutes away. Luckily today they didn't charge anything as we weren't given enough Pen G the first time around.

While I was at the vet I figured I would get them to do the Pen G shot even though they said it would cost $13.50 to have a vet tech do it. My dad was with me to help but was limited on time so we decided the fee wasn't too bad if we could get out of there quickly.

Well, the vet tech came in to give the shot and EXPLODED PEN G BACKWARDS OUT OF THE NEEDLE, getting penicillin on my sweatshirt and in my hair. She did this twice. Apparently the Pen G they have is so bad, that everyone is having problems administering it. Basically the old company they got Pen G from went out of business and now they are buying some human form of Pen G that clumps easily and gives all sorts of trouble...even for vet techs. So after the vet tech roamed frantically around the building to find an alternate source of Pen G, she came back to give it a third try. She never found that alternate Pen G, and gave it a go with the thick stuff again.

Luckily it worked this time. In our experience, administering Pen G shots does have an element of luck to it. The vet felt bad about the tech exploding Penicillin on us so we didn't have to pay anything today. Now I just have one more day to administer the shot myself before Chris comes back on Sunday. After Sunday's shot Ronnie will be off Pen G to see if his infection is gone.

Ronnie continues to do well. He stands up in his cage now instead of creeping around dizzily like he used to. He did alright in his carrier although he was a bit dizzy because I hadn't given his daily dose of Meclizine yet. Ronnie is eating his pellets, oatmeal, hay, celery, and drinking water. His weight is still not stable so we are continuing Critical Care to help him maintain. I think the reason for his weight issues is the fact that he NEVER STOPS MOVING. He's constantly running around his play area and only stops for 30 seconds to a minute to flop and catch his breath. He makes ME dizzy with his incessant running :run:

 

[TinysMom]

Not to sound stupid - but can't you get Pen G at a local feed/farm store?

I just brought my bottle in and looked at it - I think I paid $19.95 for it (it is the larger bottle - I had a smaller one I think was $9.95).

Here is what mine says on the label:

Penicillin G
Benzathine & Penicillin G Procaine

in Aqueous Suspension
Antibiotic

Net contents 250 ml

Contains: Each ml contains 150,000 units pen G benzathine; 150,000 units pen G procaine and there are some other ingredients listed. It needs to be stored at refrigeration - not frozen...

I'm trying to think when I started using this bottle....its still half full. I want to say I started using it in May maybe..and I have treated several rabbits with it for various things...I may have even started using it before May now that I think about it - more like Feb?

I use it with sub-q fluids (lactated ringers) to cut the sting of the injection.

 

[dobe627]

I have been following this thread and so glad your little bunnys doing better. If the pen G is going to be a long time thing you may want to check you local Tractor supply store. You should be able to get a bottle for under $15. If not I know alot of my farm supply catalogs have it for sale. I know the one I have sitting here in front of me has a bottle for 11.65. If you are comfortable drawing it up and stuff. You can also buy syringes ( in certain states you do need a prescption though) if you know what gauge needle your vet is using. The catalog has a 12pk of 20 gauge needles w syringes for $4.70. Just offering a little help. Cathy

 

[TinysMom]

Oooh - seeing the tips about the needles - thought I'd share a bit more information about what I do..

I buy the insulin needles at the local pharmacy - I buy a box of 100 for $11.50. (I could buy them in packages of 10 I think). For our state (TX) - I don't need a prescription to buy the needles.

The bag of lactated ringers runs me about $11.50 and it lasts a LONG time. Technically, I should probably replace it every month - but I replace it every couple of months (unless it looks cloudy - then I replace it immediately).

So for me to do 100 shots - its $11.50 for needles - probably use about $2 out of the $11.50 lactated ringers bags - and for the amount of Pen G that I use....about $5 worth of the $19.95 bottle of Pen G (actually - probably closer to about $3).

Of course - I don't have a vet handy that will treat rabbits....I always recommend seeing a vet because head tilt can be caused by so many things.

 

[Maureen Las]

I cannot believe that a vet would charge $13.50 for an injection of pen G.

Everyone is correct...
this stuff can be bought under different trade names for almost nothing at tractor supply or farm and fleet and other farm stores. In Wi. you can also buy needles and syringes but you can not get the selection of sizes and lengths that one would like.

MY new vet in Mnsold me lactated ringers for about $4.00 or something like that. The problem would be asking your vet clinic if you could buy the supplies and get your own Pen G.It is tonyshuman(who works with parmaceuticals) who stated that veterinary drugs should be used for animals and human medication should be used for humans. I don't know why the vet clinic would have human pen G anyway.

Some of the names that bicillin is under in the farm stores are Combi -pen 48 and Dura-pen. We have more names in the library
The main thing to look for on the back is the

150,000 u procaine penicillin

15,000u benzathine penicillin.

this is bicillin

these drugs are sold primarily for use in cattle

Sometimes it is difficult to give it and it shoots out etc and you have to start over but for $13.50 an injection and 2 botched attempts by the vet tech they could teach you to do it yourself.

 

[Little Bay Poo]

Thanks guys, I am just now getting home and reading everyone's posts.

I had passed by the medicine section at our local Tractor Supply but had no clue what I was looking at or if it was legal for me to get that kind of stuff without a prescription. I don't have a single country bone in my body...you should see me wandering aimlessly around the Tractor Supply and trying to figure out what the heck a wood stove pellet is or why they are playing that god awful music . Probably one reason the vet charges so much here is because they can...people in this area are more "city" and don't know any better, like me.

Does anyone know how I would figure out if it is legal for me to buy Pen G and syringes, and administer the correct dosage myself? We have been taught how to draw up the medication and give the injections, so I am comfortable with administering it. For the current round we will finish out with the medications I got at the vets, but if Ronnie's infection is not gone...or if it comes back in the future, then I gotta figure out a better way to do these shots. Basically, just to get the Pen G costs me $100 because the vet requires a $70 check up and $30 of additional small fees to even allow us the medication.

 

[JadeIcing]

You know his dosage and the store wouldn't sell it if it wasn't legal.

Little Bay Poo wrote:

Thanks guys, I am just now getting home and reading everyone's posts.

I had passed by the medicine section at our local Tractor Supply but had no clue what I was looking at or if it was legal for me to get that kind of stuff without a prescription. I don't have a single country bone in my body...you should see me wandering aimlessly around the Tractor Supply and trying to figure out what the heck a wood stove pellet is or why they are playing that god awful music . Probably one reason the vet charges so much here is because they can...people in this area are more "city" and don't know any better, like me.

Does anyone know how I would figure out if it is legal for me to buy Pen G and syringes, and administer the correct dosage myself? We have been taught how to draw up the medication and give the injections, so I am comfortable with administering it. For the current round we will finish out with the medications I got at the vets, but if Ronnie's infection is not gone...or if it comes back in the future, then I gotta figure out a better way to do these shots. Basically, just to get the Pen G costs me $100 because the vet requires a $70 check up and $30 of additional small fees to even allow us the medication.

 

[Little Bay Poo]

JadeIcing wrote:

You know his dosage and the store wouldn't sell it if it wasn't legal.

:biggrin2: I guess the only thing would be to confirm it with the Tractor Supply before making the trip then.

Another question though...How do I know when it's the right time to start Pen G again? Ronnie seems to be permanently tilted, so I can't go by his head being crooked. I can go by his movements (and rolling episodes obviously). Right now he's moving around so well and not rolling at all, so if he starts getting disoriented again I'd take that as a sign that the infection is still there. But would it be a bad idea for me to start up shots without taking him in for another vet check up to confirm that he's worsening and that he needs them?

I'm sure if I see him getting bad again I'll know it's time for more injections, but I feel weird about diagnosing that myself :?. How do other members with head tilt bunnies know when it's time for more shots, and do you feel you need a vet to confirm this?

 

[JadeIcing]

Little Bay Poo wrote:

JadeIcing wrote:

You know his dosage and the store wouldn't sell it if it wasn't legal.

:biggrin2: I guess the only thing would be to confirm it with the Tractor Supply before making the trip then.

Another question though...How do I know when it's the right time to start Pen G again? Ronnie seems to be permanently tilted, so I can't go by his head being crooked. I can go by his movements (and rolling episodes obviously). Right now he's moving around so well and not rolling at all, so if he starts getting disoriented again I'd take that as a sign that the infection is still there. But would it be a bad idea for me to start up shots without taking him in for another vet check up to confirm that he's worsening and that he needs them?

I'm sure if I see him getting bad again I'll know it's time for more injections, but I feel weird about diagnosing that myself :?. How do other members with head tilt bunnies know when it's time for more shots, and do you feel you need a vet to confirm this?

Honestly if he got bad again I think you need something stronger. Was it determained what kind of bacteria it is? If it is pasteurella than I would try a zithromax/Pen G combo. The one thing I learned with Ringo is not to continue with a med that is not working.

 

[Maureen Las]

You really need the vet to confirm when it is the appropriate times for you to start the meds. What I was thinking , in your case, is to tell the vet that you have your own penicillin at home (that you bought it to save money) and that you can give the injections yourself. Hopefully the vet will work with you and tell you when he should be on them or not.
We are not advocating you taking his medical care into your own hands but just making it financially easier to get the med yourself.
The meds in the refrigerator at tractor supply and farm and fleet do not require a prescription; you buy it at the checkout line just like everything else. Sometimes they ask me if I have a farm ID number (could get it even cheaper) and I say no it's just for my rabbits.
Just an idea

We are NOT advocatiing that you don't get the vet care but only get the med from a place that will cost you less.

 

[Little Bay Poo]

Ronnie is on Pen G currently. The vet did not like the idea of Zithromax, but was willing to special order it (I don't want to know how much they'd charge for that).

The Pen G itself is not what is hurting us financially...it is the $100 we have to pay to be allowed to get the Pen G. The vet will not give us any new prescriptions for Pen G unless we spend $100 taking Ronnie in for a full examination. They will not consult over the phone or lessen the fee of the exam, because we have told them that we don't have the funds to keep doing this but they think $100 every few weeks is still within reason.

We live in Fairfax County, where the median income is over $100,000 and people throw money at things without thinking. My parents just spent $500 to have a plumber replace the kitchen faucet and have spent $1500 on some random "woodsman" who came to our door and said some of our trees looked sickly and needed to be cut down. I'm saying this because if the vet can't get money from us, they'll just refuse us service and get it somewhere else. There are a lot of rich people here.

So right now I'm thinking our options are to call up the vet in Purcellville to see what their fees look like for check ups, and if medical records can be sent there. (We got Billy and Ronnie neutered at the Purcellville vet for $100 because the Fairfax vet wanted to charge upwards of $350 per neuter.) If it's not much different then we stick with the current vet and decide if we want to get Pen G at the Tractor Supply...not because of the cost of the Pen G, but because the vet will only supply us with the human form of the drug that malfunctions a lot and makes me stress out every time we give the shot.

If the Tractor Supply Pen G will make it easier to administer the drug (i.e. no explosions or multiple attempts to get the thing into Ronnie every day) then I'm game.

 

[Little Bay Poo]

Sorry I forgot to answer JadeIcing in my post:

Yes, Ronnie tested positive for Pasteurella. However, they also said that the titers were difficult to read and open for interpretation and he also tested positive for E.C. Based on what Randy said before, I assume this to mean that Ronnie's infection is caused by Pasteurella, and not caused by E.C.

 

[Maureen Las]

I now understand what you are talking about..the more affluent the area the more they charge.
!st of all I would REALLY check out the vet in Purcellville to find out if he will even use drugs like pen g and zithromax. many vets will not. You could maybe find a vet farther away and drive as the cost of gas right now would be less than what your vet charges. The cost of a spay in your area is way way high. ..close to $130.00 more than where I am; and it is considered high here.

before you switch you want to make sure that you get a vet that is very knowledgeable re. head tilt. otherwise there is no point in switching. You could get a cheaper vet with no good knowledge behind him.
You may want to look at the lists on this site/ot check with the HRS in your area emphasizing Ronnie's problems.
In terms of human versus veterinary penicillin they may have used that as an excuse for botching the injections. Do they dilute the penicillin with a sterile diluent? If not it is way harder to give and there is a greater chance of Ronnie getting a sterile abscess. This is something that I think all of us learned from Randy and , to be honest, I do not know if a lot of vets do it. using a sterile diluent makes the penicillin way thinner thus making it easier to get in. it also cuts down on the sting and is easier on the rabbit's tissues.

Even then it is not uncommon to have to makeseveral tries occasionallyto get it right . When I was giving it to Beau sometimes it just went perfect and then other days I would apparently go through the skin fold without being aware and shoot it on him. I would have to wipe him off and start over again. but eventually would get it right.

The more you do it the better you get at giving it..just like everything else in life.
you have lots to think about...

I have one vet here that just started using pen G herself; she lets me use my own supply of it but tells me when to start and stop.

 

[Little Bay Poo]

Yep, lots of things to think about, all of which I will have to discuss with Chris when he comes back on Sunday. Next time we see the vet I will ask them if they use a sterile diluent (I'd never heard of that before) to thin out the medication. It stinks sometimes because I don't have the knowledge to combat what the vet has to say, so a lot of things I have to take their word for and hope they are helping us to the best of their knowledge. This forum is a lifesaver though, as I would have no other way of learning about all of the different treatment options out there and what to expect.

 

[Maureen Las]

Just tell the vet that the people on the rabbit website asked if he uses a sterile diluent then it won't seem like you are questioning him but that WE are questioning him...

if he asks why ?

say .

1) To thin out the penicillin so it is injected easier and also to cause less irritation to the tissue under the skin

2) to decrease the risk of a sterile abscess

3) to decrease the 'sting' of the injection

 

[NZminilops]

How is Ronnie today?

 

[Little Bay Poo]

NZminilops wrote:

How is Ronnie today?

Ronnie is doing well. He is off his shots now and we are playing the waiting game to see if his infection comes back. According to the vet, this is all we can do...there's no real test to see if it's gone so we just wait and see what happens without antibiotics. Today is day three without his shots, but we've been to this point before with him because he's had to be off Pen G for three days many times. It may be a week or two before we really know if the infection is gone.

Ronnie is a very picky eater. He's been throwing his Oxbow BBT pellets so we're letting him keep the Manna Pro alfalfa based ones. Billy doesn't like the Oxbow BBT either...I'm thinking alfalfa tastes better? We're still giving Ronnie between 24 and 36 cc of Critical Care every day. He's very good about it and easy to feed.

Anyhow, here's some pictures I took today of Ronnie, and a short video:

Ronnie's "down eye"

A couple more of his down eye

Munching on celery

Short video of him running around. He gets around really well...his last rolling episode was a few weeks ago: