RESOLVED: Breeding decisions - I hate 'em

[TinysMom]

First of all - my goal is to improve the breed and have show quality rabbits or rabbits that could go to breeders. I have a few does that need to be bred ASAP or it will be too late to breed them.

Both of the does I want to breed this week are blue. I could breed them to some different bucks.

a. Triad - broken tort

b. Sting - dark siamese sable/seal

c. Bun Jovi - black that carries blue & tort

Both girls have longer ears than I would like. I also have a black doe I need to breed...she has really longer ears BUT she has nice bone and a nice head.

Each buck has their own strengths and weaknesses....and I guess my decision is going to partly boil down to...

a. do I breed for the color

or

b. do I breed for the body type

HELP?

Peg

P.S. Triad gave me pretty babies this last litter so I am thinking of taking one blue doe to him and one blue doe to Sting because I might get siamese smoke pearl (I don't remember if Sting has any dilute that he might carry). That is now a showable color if I remember right. Blue tort is also showable now.

The black doe...I have some options and I'm thinking about them all....

 

[undergunfire]

I am by no means a breeder or have much knowledge of breeding, but I did learn quite a bit while I stayed with you .

You did talk a lot about how some of your rabbits have longer ears and such, so I think you should breed for body type, then once you have profected your body type, work for color .

I remember the handsome & flirty Triad, and Sting...the "show-off", but I can't remember who Bun Jovi was!


Question....remember that cute Chocolate buck that we took outside that one day, and you groomed him? He was a tiny little guy, with a nice fluffy mane and skirting....and he was in the rabbitry, to the right, bottom cages. What was his name? He was gorgeous...personally...your best looking Lionhead, to me .

 

[Bo B Bunny]

I ummm would breed them for BABIES! :biggrin2:

Seriously, I love love love blue tort. However, I think that a great body type is going to outweigh color on a judges table, don't you?

I appreciate the fact that you are so conscientious about your breeding program, btw. I think quality breeders with the care and concern that you show are awesome! We are so fortunate that most of the RO members who breed have that sense of responsibility to the animals, their breed and the rescue centers.

 

[BlueGiants]

Bo B Bunny wrote:

However, I think that a great body type is going to outweigh color on a judges table, don't you?

I appreciate the fact that you are so conscientious about your breeding program, btw. I think quality breeders with the care and concern that you show are awesome! We are so fortunate that most of the RO members who breed have that sense of responsibility to the animals, their breed and the rescue centers.

Bad color or wrong color is an automatic DQ. So the judge won't even get to the point of evaluating type. (Althoughmost judges will give youcomments before dismissing from the table.)

I admire your serious consideration over who to breed, and what might result.

If Bun Jovi hasn't been "used" much and is young enough, you could usehim with one girl, wait 2 days and use him again with the other girl. (I don't think he'll mind!) Then give him a rest... Crossing him with the blue girls should give you acceptable color across the litters. Then you can pick and choose for type. Not every baby born will be show quality.

 

[Bo B Bunny]

Really? So coloring is a huge part of the breeding? like...... you can have a slight wrong color? and it's huge?

I'm clueless LOL!

 

[BlueGiants]

Bo B Bunny wrote:

Really? So coloring is a huge part of the breeding? like...... you can have a slight wrong color? and it's huge?

I'm clueless LOL!

Yeah,color isa big deal. Califonians can be DQ'd for"smut", any color other than white on the belly or back. (Including a light gray spot, or wrong shading on the fur.) My daughter had a very pretty Dutch girl DQ'd for a freckle inside it's nostril (DQ'd for any color spot in a white area... in a rabbit that has 50% of it's points based on markings, it's a big deal.) A lot of breeds can be DQ'd for the wrong undercolor, the color you only see when you blow on the coat or rub it backwards. (I have the most beautiful red Mini Rex that should have a white/light undercoat, her's is blue... can not show her... but that DQ makes her perfect for my Castor breeding program to improve our "rufus factor", the red banding in the castor fur.) Yeah, color is very important.

 

[GoinBackToCali]

Oh heck yeah Cali's can be DQ'ed for smut on their bellies/back's... I have also seen them DQ'ed for too light a coloring, and coloring that went too high and weirdly up their noses..like they just got into something..

Come to think of it, a friend's daughters Cali got DQ'ed because his tail looked mostly white instead of Grey..

 

[Bo B Bunny]

I knew about smut and things like uneven markings on brokens and English spots and such, but I didn't realize they would judge the rings and like - if a blue tort is torty enough LOL!

 

[Bramblerose]

Well with Lionheads right now your darned if you do and darned if you don't. They didn't pass, and the COD has gone to another holder, meaning in short, that they have to start all over again, read about it here-

http://www.arba.net/

Considering that its a breed in development I myself would stick to the colors that are being presented by the COD holder. I would get a copy of the standard thats being used and follow it as a guideline in my crosses. I wouldn't worry about the length of ears just yet, as your does could have 'summer' years, depending on if they were born in warm weather.

Since these are the colors-Chestnut Agoutis, Sable Points, Torts, REWs, and Siamese Sables- I would try to make crosses that would produce some of these colors- Myself I would probably breed the black or broken tort to the does, and try to find a better cross for the siamese sable/seal, as your girls may not carry the genes to produce any siamese sables. Of course conformation is more important than color, but you have to stay within certain guidelines. I'd keep the best solid colored torts, REW's, etc that I produced, only keeping brokens if they were exceptional. By torts they mean black torts, not blue torts/isabellas, which quite frankly is one of my fav colors. Of course it really all depends on how many holes you have, the more room you have to keep rabbits the more leeway you have on what colors to keep.

Right now Lionheads can be shown if the show is willing to accept them, but they don't have to. Its a terrible setback for a really neat little breed, I was talking about it with a friend the other day. She thinks that a lot of folks may drop them, other than the hardcore people, as now the wait will be longer and shows can chose not to accept entries. Good Luck, don't give up!!

 

[Bramblerose]

Hey I found some more info on these pages


http://www.welshrabbitry.com/showlionheads.html

http://www.lionhead.us/standardallCODs.htm

http://www.lionhead.us/standards.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/northeastlionhead/

I found this all to be very interesting, and some of the information conflicts, so take it with a grain of salt until you can confirm it. Right now Gails COD is on the five colors only, or so it appears. Since she is the holder that means those colors are going to be presented first and hopefully passed. Fawns may have been dropped, torts seem up in the air, now I'm terribly curious and will have to talk to some Lionhead folks at the PA convention.

I'm not certain that I'm helping make your breeding choices any easier, but I really do have good intentions!

 

[polly]

I remember you talking about trying to get certificates in certain colours.(sorry can't remember if thats what you calll them)

So if i was you then i would probably breed for colour first once you get your colours right then i would breed to the right shape or size Though as was already said remember that you might get some real crackers form on eyou don't think is that good.

I seem to get all the best looking babies out of 1 great looking parent and one not so great

Good luck Peg

 

[TinysMom]

I've been breeding lionheads for two years now - there have been a lot of changes in those two years....and the lionhead "look" is changing too - to a more rounded head and cat-like ears.

There are now FOUR active certificates of development on them (Bob Whitman pulled his at the last ARBA convention). The colors are (from www.lionhead.us):

[line]
[align=left][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]BLACK The surface color is to be rich, jet black over the entire animal and extending well down the hair shaft. The undercolor is to be a dark slate-blue. Eyes- brown.
Faults: Fault animal for having faded color, scattered white hairs, or a light undercolor.
(Included on the SECOND CERTIFICATE - Theresa Mueller)
[/font][/align][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]BLUE: The surface color is to be dark blue over the entire animal, extending well down the hair shaft with a lighter blue undercolor.
Eyes – Blue-Gray
Faults: Fault animals for having faded color, scattered white [/font][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]hairs or light under color[/font][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]
(Included on the [font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]SECOND [/font]CERTIFICATE - Theresa Mueller)

BLUE TORTOISE: The body color is to be fawn, blending into a blue shading over the lower rump and carrying well onto the haunches. Top color should carry well down into the undercolor, blending into a cream color next to the skin. Top of the tail should match the body color, with the underside to be blue, blending into a cream next to the skin. Belly should match shadings, with cream undercolor. Head shadings should be darkest blue at the whisker bed, blending into a lighter shade along the jaw line, darkening again at the ear base and blending up into the ears to match the body color.
Eyes - Blue/Gray
Faults: Stray white hairs, faded shading
Disqualifications from competition:white belly or tail
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"](Included on the FOURTH CERTIFICATE - Lynne Schultz)[/font][/font][/font]

[/font][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]CHESTNUT AGOUTI -The surface color on the top sides of the body is to be a light brown, ticked with black. The intermediate band is to be a well defined orange over a dark slate-blue undercolor. The chest is to be a light cream or off white over a dark slate-blue undercolor. The undercolor of the belly is to be slate blue. The top of the tail is to be black, sparsely ticked with light brown, over a dark slate-blue undercolor. The nape of the neck is to be orange, with ears laced in black.
Eyes - brown.
Faults: Animals that are too light in the color of the intermediary band or undercolor or are to light or dark in surface color
[/font][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] (Included on the FIRST CERTIFICATE - Gail Gibbons)
[/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]ORANGE: Surface color to be a bright golden color, extending well down the hair shaft and carried evenly over the head, outer ear, front of foreleg, outside the hind legs and top of tail. Chest color is to be consistent with body surface color. Belly, back of forelegs, inside of hind legs top of hind feet and underside of lower jaw to be white with an off white undercolor. Lap spots should be present. Underside of tail and vent area, inside of ear, eye circles and under nostrils should be white. Eyes-Brown
Faults: Fault severely for smut or ticking on body or lacing on ears; lack of lap spots, color faded or washed out in appearance
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"](Included on the FOURTH CERTIFICATE - Lynne Schultz)[/font][/font][/font][/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]POINTED WHITE Body color is to be pure white. Markings may be black, blue, chocolate or lilac, and must be present on the nose, ears, feet and tail. Allowances should be made for developing color on juniors. Toenails must show color.
Eyes--Pink.
Faults: Markings extremely faded; frosted appearance to the marking color.
Disqualifications from Competition: Any Tan Pattern marking appearing in the marking pattern. [/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"](Included on the THIRD CERTIFICATE - Dawn Guth)[/font][/font]

[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]RUBY EYED WHITE Color is to be a pure white and uniform throughout. Eyes - Pink.
(Included on the FIRST CERTIFICATE - Gail Gibbons)[/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]SABLE POINT[/font][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] Color on the nose, ears, feet legs and tail is to be a rich sepia brown color. The marking color is to shade rapidly to a brown body color. The entire upper body is to be creamy brown color, with a lighter almost white undercolor. A slightly deeper body color may occur along the saddle but is not desirable. The ideal is an animal whose surface color is light enough to give good contrast with the point color.
Eyes - Brown
Faults: Blotchy surface color on body: markings too light to provide good contrast with the body.
(Included on the FIRST CERTIFICATE - Gail Gibbons)[/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]SIAMESE SABLE The surface color is to be a rich sepia brown on the head, ears, back, outside of legs, and top of the tail. The surface color will fade to a lighter sepia on the sides, chest, belly, inside of legs, and underside of the tail. Dark face color is to fade from the eyes to the jaws and all blending of color is to be gradual and free from blotched or streaks. The undercolor will be slightly lighter than the surface color.
Eyes - brown.
Faults: fault animals that have streaks, blotched or poor color blending, Scattered white hairs, or lack of darker color in the loin area is a fault (Included on the FIRST CERTIFICATE - Gail Gibbons)
[/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]SMOKE PEARL Color is to be a rich smoke gray on the face, ears, saddle, outside of legs, and top of the tail. Saddle color is to shade off gradually to a soft pearl gray on the flanks, chest and belly, inside of legs and underside of the tail. All blending of color is to be gradual and free from blotches or streaks. The under color will be slightly lighter than the surface color.
Eyes- Blue-Gray. Ruby cast permissible.
Faults: Blotchy shading, animals that are too dark or too light to show a contrast of shading.
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] (Included on the THIRD CERTIFICATE - Dawn Guth)[/font]
[/font]
[font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]TORTOISE: [/font][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]The surface of the body is to be a rusty orange color on the loin, blending with a gray-black on the sides, rump, belly, head, feet and tail. The color is to extend well down the hair shaft to an off-white undercolor. Eyes - Brown.
[/font][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"]Faults: Stray white hairs; underside of tail light in color. [/font][font="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"] (Included on the FIRST CERTIFICATE - Gail Gibbons)[/font]

[line]
My biggest concern is in using Sting, my dark siamese sable/seal buck. As an adult mane, he's keeping a VERY nice mane - something which doesn't happen that often. He carries the dwarf gene (which is a help) and he also has small ears (something I DO worry about because my does tend to have large ears - even if they weren't born here). I know that the ears are only worth 5 points but they are a dq if they are too long if I remember right. Also - he has nice clean ears- wool going up the ears is a dq.
Bun Jovi has thrown beautiful babies for Lisa Brown from Castle Gate Lionheads - he was a gift from her for my program because although he is black - he also carries tort and dilute. He is as nice or nicer than Sting but I really like the shadeds like siamese sable, etc.
I wouldn't be breeding right now except for the fact that I HAVE to get these girls bred once before they are too old.



[line]
Amy - just FYI - the chocolate one you're talking about is Chaucer. Really cute - but he's lost his mane. In addition, I realized after I'd bought him (I hadn't thought it all the way through) that he might carry the vienna gene and mess up my lines. I'm still thinking through all of my options - if I had a BEW doe - I could testbreed him and see if he carries it - but alas, I don't have a BEW doe.

Also - you may remember the black gal - she was the one that I would look at and go, "I don't know what in the world I got her for....look at those ears...".


Well - her ears are a bit long - BUT - she is GORGEOUS and her mane is beautiful and her body type is wonderful. So I'm going to go ahead and breed her after all. It helps that she is a sweetie...

Peg

 

[TinysMom]

I wanted to clarify a couple of things here...

a. Bob Whitman pulled (as in "canceled" - not as in applied for and received) his COD at the last ARBA convention. Usually its called "pulling" a COD when someone gets one - so I realized that might sound confusing.

b. Once lionheads pass their first presentation again - then all of the colors on the CODs will be considered showable. We're currently finding that many shows are so used to accepting lionheads and getting the $$ for them, etc - that they're allowing lionheads as an exhibition breed just like they were before. I'm hearing of many shows that have 25 - 40 lionheads being shown (on the East Coast) and sometimes that is more than some of the other breeds have.

I'm going over my pedigrees in just a few more minutes to make final decisions...I think I know what I'm going to do but I'll let y'all know once I make the decision.

Peg

 

[Bramblerose]

Thanks for all the info, now I'm even more curious, funny that I was having a conversation about them just the other day, they are a very interesting breed. Tough breed it seems though, I was trying to get a handle on the whole single mane, double mane, mode of inheritence thing. I do see a lot of them at shows, and I like BEW anything, would be neat if you did have a Vienna carrier. I will definitely test the waters at the PA convention, see whats going on.

By cat-like ears do you mean V ears?

As a point of interest Sable(called Siamese Sable) is up for acceptance in Mini-Rex, and I have acquired a Sable buck to work on that color, I like the color a lot, would love to see pictures of your Sting.

 

[TinysMom]

I won't be at the PA convention - sorry. I live in SW Texas.

The whole mane thing isn't that hard really. Most of the breeders I know work mainly with double mane rabbits.

Basically - the baby takes a gene from each parent. If both parents are double mane - then you'll have double mane babies.

Probably best to just point you here:

http://www.lionheadrabbit.net/genmanegibbons.htm

Its a great article about the mane gene and has a good chart.

I'd post Sting's picture but I think you're thinking of Siamese Sable (I have that too) - Sting is actually called "Dark Siamese Sable/Seal" I think on his pedigree. He definitely is closer to a seal I think than a siamese sable. I know he was a silver color when he was born.

Peg

 

[TinysMom]

This would be an example of an "older style" of lionhead:




Notice the ear length and ear shape.

Now look at this one:




The ears are shaped differently. (I haven't shown rabbits other than lionheads and they are probably my first love other than flemish).

Its really hard to explain - somewhere here on the forum there is a post I did months ago about the changes in the lionhead breed (truly it IS a developing breed) just in the 2 years since I've been in it. The faces/heads are becoming more round and less of a wedge shape and the ears are changing too.

Peg

 

[Bramblerose]

Yes, I can see the difference quite clearly, thanks. Theres much more substance to the ears, head appears bulkier. It drives me crazy that the same color in different breeds is called by different names, and sometimes a different color is called the same name. My Sable Mini-rex is dark, seal brown body color, with darker seal shading/points, if he was a ND it would be a Siamese Sable.

Pity your not coming to PA, I'd get you a cup of coffee and a Whoopie Pie-yummy

 

[TinysMom]

Bramblerose wrote:

Pity your not coming to PA, I'd get you a cup of coffee and a Whoopie Pie-yummy

Oh now that isn't fair.....tempting me like that. I can't get whoopie pies down here. (Of course my mom used to make them homemade and I love them).

Well, Sting is now with one of the blue does. Its sort of funny because she wants to breed but she backs herself up against the cage bar and lifts her rear. Of course - he can't get between her and the cage bar. I suspect I may have to help in a bit.

I wanted to breed him to Luna - the other blue doe - BUT - when I went to get her - her nose was damp. No discharge - just damp. But still yet, I didn't want to distress her and she wasn't happy at my holding her. I think she sneezed last night when I fed her supper too....so she will wait another month and I'll keep an eye on her.

The black doe looks perfectly healthy - so I'm going to breed her to Triad. Not an ideal breeding because it is possible she could carry the vienna gene and he is broken. BUT....I need to get her bred NOW if I want to use her later on....and her mane is really so nice. I am thinking that together they might give me some show quality ones even if the vienna gene is hiding - so I'm going to try it.

I need to pick out one more doe to breed - I prefer to do 3 at a time so I have two backups....that way if one misses...I still have another backup available.

Oh well - back to work here....

I guess I'm making my choices more on body type than color right now - because really - that is where the most points are and that is how to get the best quality animals. I usually get very good comments on body type for my animals - its the ears and mane that have cost me points in the past.

Peg

 

[SkyScraper]

For me I would breed for Body Type. Body Type comes first for me and Color comes second. Like, once I had 2 does, I wanted Tri babies, and I knew one of my does with Ace would come out with Tri's. But, I went with body and bred With Gracie and Ace. But, you know, it all worked out, because the babies WHERE tri's and HAD perfect boies.
Sorry, But, all I am saying that for show quality you want to breed for body type.

 

[Starlight Rabbitry]

TinysMom wrote:

I wanted to clarify a couple of things here...

b. Once lionheads pass their first presentation again - then all of the colors on the CODs will be considered showable.

Peg

Not all the colors are showable. Only colors that pass their first presentation are eligible to be shown...meaning that show secretaries have to accept those colors. They do not however, have to accept the others. Most show secretaries are willing to accept any lionhead color and any other breeds' "working" varieties provided a standard is provided by the exhibitor. Clubs don't usually turn away money.

Sharon