preventative antibiotics after a bunny died from pneumonia

[Watermelons]

What symptoms... if any... are you noticing?

Sometimes bunnys may sound like their catching their breath if their freaked out and already breathing heavily... or stopping for a sniff here and there inbetween panicing.

The sound you want to listen for is basicly water on the lungs. Crackles. This will be hard to notice on bunnys especially since their breathing rate is so quick already.
Here are some human sounds
http://faculty.etsu.edu/arnall/www/public_html/heartlung/breathsounds/contents.html
Scroll down to about the center where it says Adventitious Sounds. Crackles and rales. If you have an infection in your lungs or lots of nasty mucusy phlem and other yummy things... think of us having a "wet cough", that junk settles in your lungs which will change how much air youre able to bring in and as a result change what somebody on the outside hears as the patient breaths through the gunk.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Watermelons, I listened to him and couldn't hear anything amiss. It is true that he was a bit worked up (we listened to him last and he thought he were handing out treats to the other bunnies), he was nervous too being handled by someone he doesn't know well and I could see whites around his eyes. Hopefully that was what she was hearing.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Okay, vet called (the one that treated Nomi, not our regular vet) and said they got the completed results from the lab. They found E. coli and a type of unspecified bacillus bacteria in her. NO pasteurella. Apparently the 2 others they were culturing ended up not being anything significant or something since they weren't included in the report? I'll call the main vet on Monday to see what she knows.

Anyway, the vet said the bacillus bacteria is a type of bacteria that's everywhere and shouldn't really be a danger to the other bunnies, and that the E. coli is mysterious but not really dangerous to the others either. I hadn't told her that I wasn't giving the antibiotics to the buns but she told me to stop since it doesn't seem like they're in danger.

The running theory is that Nomi was immuno suppressed from her previous life and having litter after litter, plus we don't really know what environment she lived in. They think it just kind of caught up with her and gave her pneumonia and she died

Thoughts and opinions from anyone who knows about bacillus genus of bacteria?

 

[Samara]

The genus bacillus causes anthrax!

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Yeah, she mentioned that, Samara. I'm imagining a bizarre situation in which someone tried to assassinate my bunny with anthrax (just kidding, of course).

 

[LakeCondo]

I agree [post 43, not 45]. I was told by a friend from Arizona there were 2 forms of anthrax. The less serious form is often found among people who are exposed to leather a lot, even people who play drums without the sticks.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

LakeCondo, she said that bacillus bacteria like anthrax are naturally found in dirt and are not necessarily harmful. I was just kidding about the assassination thing of course. Nomi didn't HAVE anthrax- the lab didn't actually specify which type of bacillus- the vet just used it as an example of a type of bacillus that is found in lots of places and isn't necessarily harmful.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Rory and I just had a snuggle. His nose is ever so slightly damp. Listened to his lungs and could actually hear them pretty well but didn't hear anything untoward. Let's hope it's nothing!! I will be keeping super close tabs on him! Hopefully he just had a drink of water or something and had a little dampness under his nose from it.

 

[ZRabbits]

SnowyShiloh wrote:

Rory and I just had a snuggle. His nose is ever so slightly damp. Listened to his lungs and could actually hear them pretty well but didn't hear anything untoward. Let's hope it's nothing!! I will be keeping super close tabs on him! Hopefully he just had a drink of water or something and had a little dampness under his nose from it.

Know exactly what you are going through. Neville is doing wonderfully and now I'm watching every move Luna is making because I'm afraid she might come down with an inner ear infection. I found a sleeper in one eye. But it's very dry here now. Even have forest fires in the Pine lands that's how dry it is. See Luna scratching her ear and face, but her wool is coming in. So my husband straightened me out.

But every little thing will set me off because I'm on High Alert due to Neville being ill.

You are no different than any other bunny Mom. Heck you are no different than any Mom. Hopefully this will pass, and all the bunnies will be fine. Just like I'm hoping this passes here.

K

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Before I went to bed I checked Rory and his nose was definitely a little runny, but I just got up (10 am on a Sunday morning, went to bed at 3 am, whatever!) and his nose is completely dry. I'll keep an eye on him all day and hopefully it will stay dry. As much as I want my bunnies to be healthy and nip anything in the bud, I don't really want to rush him to the vet today (if they're even open on Easter!) because his nose was a little damp for a couple hours last night but he looks normal today. Ya know?

 

[LakeCondo]

right

 

[tonyshuman]

Might be good to have the vet take a listen to Rory's lungs. Bacillus is pretty much anywhere, so she could have picked it up easily.

I found some papers where E coli pneumonia was studied in rabbits, and it doesn't seem uncommon. This paper lists it as the 2nd most common cause of bacterial pneumonia in rabbits, behind pasturella. They also had one rabbit test positive for bacillus. They also describe E coli as an opportunistic bacterium that can take root when the rabbit's immune system is already challenged or compromised.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10712805

I would guess that she had acquired the infection from being immunocompromised if she was in bad health before you guys took her in. Repeated litters could definitely cause it. She also could have been living in a dirty space with lots of feces piling up or dirt (which contains a lot of different bacillus species). Unfortunately, these bacteria could also have been present if the vets weren't following great sterile procedure while doing the necropsy, so it could be a little suspect. I wouldn't ask the vet about that--it would be a bit accusatory.

It seems that rabbit pneumonia is a more chronic condition that's difficult to see, cases in point my Ben and your Nomi. Long-term disease or poor health caused by bad caretaking can lead to opportunistic bacterial infections, or pneumonia associated with pressure on the lungs, and that may be asymptomatic until it becomes very apparent and very bad. I think as long as your other guys seem otherwise in good health, their environments are nice and clean, and you keep them as cool as possible (under your circumstances), they won't require a vet visit or antibiotics. I think pneumonia is pretty easy to hear with a stethoscope, but if there's a concern, and Rory doesn't normally have a drippy nose, then a vet visit will put your mind at ease.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Claire, thanks for the great info! Very helpful. I just called the vet clinic to ask if the main vet van call me. I want to bring Rory in to have him checked out. He had the hint of a damp nose for a few hours on Saturday night, then nothing until last night, when his nose was just a tiny bit damp again. I've made a tentative vet appointment for him on Thursday morning (soonest our vet is available) . As far as I personally can tell, his lungs sound fine, and he has not lost weight in the last week (he's actually gone from 3 lbs 6 oz to 3 lbs 9 oz), but I'd like him to be looked over.

Can runny noses be caused by fans? I know drafts aren't good for buns but we've needed to keep fans going because of our broken thermostat. Almost every summer we have to aim a little fan right at him because he gets too hot and he's never had ill effects, but we've been running fans since Thursday night and a big box fan blew right by his cage until we changed the angle on Sunday. Darned thermostat repair people keep changing their date of when they're coming and have pushed it back to Thursday (naturally, exactly at the same time as Rory's vet appointment but what can you do!). Thankfully it has not been too hot in here the past few days and we didn't even run the fans last night.

Any idea of what antibiotic would be best for him if he needs it? I have a great big $75 bottle of apple flavored Baytril in the fridge that I picked up the day after Nomi died.

 

[LakeCondo]

If the vet recommends an antibiotic, ask if you can use "what's left" of what you had been giving all of them before, with maybe a new prescription for more [which you don't need to get filled].

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Ugh, Kerensa has a runny nose as of right now. When the vet office opens I'm going to ask if I can bring her in, too. Poor girl may have to travel in a cardboard box because two carriers are infected with Nomi germs, one I lent to a friend, and that only leaves one carrier for two bunnies.

Transportation issues aside, I'm feeling very uneasy with TWO runny nosed buns on my hands. Could they have gotten runny noses from temperature changes? The property managers turned off the furnace so now it's about 65 in here, while it was in the 80s the other day.

Worried about my babies! Let's hope we can stop this in its tracks and everyone doesn't get sick (or worse). Fret, fret.

 

[ZRabbits]

SnowyShiloh wrote:

Ugh, Kerensa has a runny nose as of right now. When the vet office opens I'm going to ask if I can bring her in, too. Poor girl may have to travel in a cardboard box because two carriers are infected with Nomi germs, one I lent to a friend, and that only leaves one carrier for two bunnies.

Transportation issues aside, I'm feeling very uneasy with TWO runny nosed buns on my hands. Could they have gotten runny noses from temperature changes? The property managers turned off the furnace so now it's about 65 in here, while it was in the 80s the other day.

Worried about my babies! Let's hope we can stop this in its tracks and everyone doesn't get sick (or worse). Fret, fret.

So sorry to hear. It could be the temper change, or could be the pollen count. Everybody is complaining about allergies. At least on the East Coast. And I don't think its better anywhere else. How was your winter there? Was it light like ours here on the East Coast? We didn't even get cold here. I know temper changes will affect bunnies too. But they usually react when it's a quick change so maybe that's setting off your buns and NOT what Nomi had. But it's good to get them checked. Just for your peace of mind.

Your affected crates, one part bleach, three parts water for each carrier in the tub. Turn the shower on after allowing the solution to sit for 5 minutes on the crates. Then rinse in hot water. Nothing lives.

Let us know how it all goes. Will be thinking of you and buns. Good Luck!

K

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Karen, we live in Alaska so a mild winter still involves temperatures in the -30 range. Winter IS coming to an end though and it's been in the 40s for the past week with the snow on its way to melting (with a long way to go yet). I doubt there are any pollen issues since the trees are all still bare and there's not a hint of green yet.

Called the vet and asked if Kerensa could come too. The receptionist said the vet would take a look at Kerensa if she had time. Please let there be time, I don't want to drag her back unnecessarily again! Stressful for bunny and waste of time.

Good news at least is Kerensa actually GAINED 4 ounces in the past week, just like Rory did. Why are they gaining weight? Either way, glad it's a gain and not a loss.

Will update when we get back! I have to go find a box for Rory. He hates being in the carrier so I figure Kerensa can have the carrier and Rory can travel in a box, then I'll take him out of the box and hold him while we wait since that's his preferred method of waiting at the vet's office.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

We're back! The vet said they both look fine. Neither had a runny nose when we were there (in spite of being stressed from being at the vet office) and she listened to their lungs and said they sounded great. Both bunnies looked like the picture of health. She said the slight runny noses were probably because of the temperature changes in our house and that if they get consistently runny noses to give her a call and we would then either give them the Baytril we already have or another antibiotic (sorry forgot what it was called). I hope she's right and the buns are fine!! They really did look great and I'd think if they had respiratory infections their noses would have been running from the stress, but I could be wrong.

Both bunnies got fawned over by the vet techs and the vet. It's good to know at least that they like the bunnies.

Total cost so far: $604. Nomi's euthanasia, the culture sent to the lab, the cremation, Baytril, and todays two exams. The price for private cremations zoomed up from $100 when Skyler died two years ago to $180 now. They didn't charge us for the necropsy which was nice, and the culture was $150. So far in 2012 we have spent $1200 on vet bills for buns (this includes 2 spays and a neuter). It's a good thing my husband loves me! Let's hope the rest of our year is a little less expensive and our bun buns all stay healthy!

 

[ZRabbits]

With the way the weather has been so strange all over the United States, you never know. Glad it's not pollen. lol We are getting bombarded with it here right now because of the Mild, or should I say Non-existent Winter. And it's so dry here too, which doesn't help. Even had forest fires in the Pinelands.

Glad to hear your update. Wow, big bills this year, buthey, your babies are truly worth it. And definitely a very understanding husband.

Hoping all stay healthy for you and hubby in 2012.

K

 

[Samara]

SnowyShiloh wrote:

Let's hope the rest of our year is a little less expensive and our bun buns all stay healthy!

ray:

Thank you for being so proactive with your babies. It renews my faith in humanity to know there are people like you out there willing to spend the money and take the extra mile to keep your wee friends healthy.

We need to make t-shirts for this forum!