preventative antibiotics after a bunny died from pneumonia

[SnowyShiloh]

Background: Our sweet Nomi girl died yesterday of pneumonia (you can see her thread in the Rainbow Bridge section). The death was a complete surprise. I have no idea how she got sick. Her cage is kept upstairs in our warm (but not too warm) and very far from humid apartment (winter in Interior Alaska is notoriously dry). Her cage was immaculate. In all honesty, I wouldn't have felt too weird about eating something off the floor of her cage because it was so clean. The other buns are all in our living room and she last had contact with Max and Macie at the end of February.

Because we have other bunnies, we had a necropsy done on Nomi. The vet said her lungs had granulomas in them and she looked at a slide under a microscope and saw rod shaped bacteria. She is sending a sample to a lab to be examined so they can tell us what kind of bacteria it is. As a preventative, we want to put the other bunnies on an antibiotic. Like I said, none of them are showing symptoms, but after the first couple weeks of having Nomi (got her in January), I didn't wash my hands between touching her and touching our other bunnies. None of the other bunnies are showing signs of anything (though ever single sneeze puts me on edge, even though Nomi did not sneeze at all when she was sick). Ned IS having some issues maintaining his weight, but he's had this before and a vet visit was inconclusive, we think he may just be getting old (his estimated age is 5 years but he could be older). I'm feeding him extra and supplementing him with oats every day and that's helping him keep the weight on. I am especially worried that Ned could be more susceptible to germies or that he could be in the early phases of fighting off the nasty that killed our Nomi.

So, more to the point. Does giving preventative antibiotics to the buns sound like a good idea? I will give them Benebac, too. The vet (who is not especially experienced with bunnies unfortunately, our regular bunny vet is not working yesterday or today) wants to prescribe 3 weeks of Baytril and possibly switch to another antibiotic once we figure out what Nomi had. I have my doubts about Baytril being effective but that's what she wants to start with. The clinic just opened at noon (45 minutes ago) and I called ASAP and she's calling me back so I can give her the weights of our bunnies.

What do knowledgeable bunny folk think? About giving preventative antibiotics, Baytril (including how long to give it), and Ned?

Thanks so much! Let's hope this will prevent my other babies from getting sick. I'm thankful now that she was far away from them, but you never know.

 

[LakeCondo]

I don't know. If your regular vet will be back Monday or even Tuesday, I think I'd wait. Especially as you don't yet know the bacterium. If Nomi had been in contact with the others, it'd be another matter.

 

[TinksMama]

I would spray down all the cages, toys, dishes and your other bunny equipment with a bleach & water solution. This will kill all the bacteria on them and help prevent spreading it. If any bunnies are getting sick quarantine them right away, if you can wash your hands in between handling or caring for each bunny (I know it sounds like a pain, but better safe than sorry!). I personally try not to use antibiotics with my bunnies, instead I use herbs to boost their immune system, and herbal stuff to help them fight off infection. If you'd like some more info on the herbal stuff PM me.

 

[ZRabbits]

I wouldn't go the "preventive antibiotic" route. Antibiotic is not used as a preventive medicine anywhere. Using it this way will build up immunity to it and then you are out of luck when your bunny really needs it.

I would thoroughly clean Nomi cage with a bleach and water solution. Then observe your other bunnies, and if one does get sick than use antibiotics.

And I would wait until I talked to your Rabbit Savvy Vet regarding the administering of any antibiotics. I know you are totally freaked over Nomi's sudden passing, I would be too, but I would take this avenue slow and make sure after talking to your Regular Vet before I would start administering any antibiotic.

Antibiotic is a good medical fix, not a prevention.

K

 

[Nela]

I wouldn't without knowing the cause. *hugs*

 

[Watermelons]

Youre better off cleaning.
Pneumonia can be more then just what antibiotics are able to deal with. It could be bacterial, viral, fungal, etc. And antibiotics will only help with one of those if you have done a culture on each rabbit. Bacteria can still be present in any type of pneumonia, it just doesn't necessarily mean its the cause. And each person or rabbit in this case that shares say... a room, may all have different types of pneumonia.

Stick with the probiotics and immune support but stay away from the antibiotics unless you actually have to give them, then when its time, do a culture to see what is actually growing in there. The more often you get antibiotics blindly perscribed, the more issues you will have.

Bleach everything.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Everyone brings up very good points, thanks for being the voice of reason. I don't like overuse of antibiotics for the reasons everyone already mentioned, I guess in my fear it was hard to be rational especially when the veterinarian strongly suggested antibiotics for the others. It's hard not to want to leap into action to do anything to prevent further sickness. The regular vet will be in today so I will call her and ask what she thinks. The regular vet is the owner of the clinic that the other vet treated them at (if that makes sense) so she can talk to the vet that did the necropsy and everything. We did already come home with a great big very pricy bottle of antibiotics yesterday but at least I'll have it on hand if I need it or something.

I've already gone crazy disinfecting everything possible. It's a little tough to do the bleach solution on bigger things like cages because I can't take them outside (3 degrees today, water would freeze) and we don't have a bath tub, but I'm working around it. The good thing at least is that Nomi's cage was upstairs and away from the other bunnies. Any spread of germs would have come from my clothing (holding her and then holding the other bunnies) or my hands.

My plan is:

-talk to regular vet when I get home from class
-wait for the results of Nomi's lung sample that was sent to the lab
-continue to disinfect everything I can think of
-watch closely for signs of illness
-weekly weigh ins for buns
-wash hands before, after, and between handling bunnies and try to avoid holding them to my clothes for the time being

I'm also considering putting each bunny's food into his or her own big plastic bag so I'm not scooping it out of a communal bag. Usually I use a measuring cup and the bunnies like to stick their faces in the cup, but I won't do that. We just got a new bag of food last weekend and thankfully Nomi was still eating from the previous bag so she hasn't been around the new food.

 

[Samara]

Watermelons wrote:

Youre better off cleaning.
Pneumonia can be more then just what antibiotics are able to deal with. It could be bacterial, viral, fungal, etc. And antibiotics will only help with one of those if you have done a culture on each rabbit.  Bacteria can still be present in any type of pneumonia, it just doesn't necessarily mean its the cause.  And each person or rabbit in this case that shares say... a room, may all have different types of pneumonia.

Stick with the probiotics and immune support but stay away from the antibiotics unless you actually have to give them, then when its time, do a culture to see what is actually growing in there. The more often you get antibiotics blindly perscribed, the more issues you will have.

Bleach everything.

^ THIS.

 

[LakeCondo]

Your plan sounds excellent.

 

[Samara]

Agreed. Keep us posted!

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Urgh, still haven't heard back from the vet. Another vet from the clinic called me today (she knows nothing about bunnies) and said the vet is not in today.

Okay this is a ridiculous question, but how many times per day does the average healthy bunny sneeze? I'm being all hyper vigilant and notice every single little sneeze now. Of course in the past I would have noted excessive sneezing but I'm on edge now so notice everything. Nomi didn't even sneeze but who knows.

Good news is that so far everyone seems healthy. Rory is snuggled with me on the couch and licking me.

 

[Samara]

My guys sneeze about 7 or 8 times a day...I've been known to yell an errant BLESS YOU! up the stairs or down. I have no idea if this is normal. My yelling OR their sneezing

 

[ZRabbits]

I have bunny sneezes here too. Pollen levels are very high here. As long as there is no discharge from eyes or nose, that's probably what it is, allergies. Or a little dust.

Hoping you hear from your Regular Vet soon. I know I'd be on edge and I still am with after going through what we did with Neville. Every little thing makes you jump. Once you hear from your Vet, you will feel better.

K

 

[Watermelons]

Put your ear to their chest, what do you hear when they breathe?

 

[Samara]

(HEE HOO HEE HOO....)

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Samara, you made me laugh I saw your reply before I saw Watermelons so I was wondering what in the world, then got the context I have a stethoscope so I will listen to their longs when I get home from class this afternoon!

 

[Samara]

:thumbup

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Finally heard back from the regular vet (who I consider to be a good bunny vet- not the best in the world, but the best within a few hundred miles) and she said to continue the antibiotics until we find out what Nomi had. Should I be bad and go against doctors' orders? They all got the first dose but then I stopped for reasons you all gave (and that I felt made sense).

She looked over Nomi's necropsy results (the other vet did the necropsy) and said she suspects pasteurella and that it's very nasty. She said if everyone is still healthy in about 10 days they probably won't get sick because pasteurella has an incubation phase (or whatever) of 7-10 days. I thought though that pasteurella was one of those things that a lot of bunnies are exposed to and don't get sick from? And that some can be lifelong carriers without showing signs? She did say that bunnies can have it but not show signs.

I listened to everyone's lungs. Heard lots of heart beats (and some chewing and tummy rumbles) but thankfully nothing icky. I did hear a whoosh when Rory, Max, and Ned took big breaths but the vet said the whoosh is okay. She said they will hold their breaths sometimes when you put the stethoscope on them so that may be why I didn't hear anything on the girls. I will listen to their lungs every day!

Ned's heart was beating a lot faster than the others' but I think it was because he went last and was bouncing around the cage, probably because he thought I was handing out treats. Always the optimist, that one!

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Just read this very detailed and informative article about pasteurella: http://www.lbah.com/rabbits/pasteurella.htm

Of course I knew some about pasteurella already since it's such a common bunny thing but I wanted to read more. I'm really glad we had Nomi's sample sent to a lab so we can know exactly what caused her to get sick.

Can't help but wonder if Ned's head tilt he had last summer was from pasteurella. At the time I thought maybe it was, but we didn't find out for sure because the vets (more than one saw him) never ever saw any sign of inflammation or infection in his ears. As I mentioned upthread, Ned lost some weight recently but thankfully is plumping up again. Although we got his head tilt under control very quickly and he never became super tilted, he took 6 weeks to recover and has always kept a residual "tilt" (he actually turns his head to the right like he's looking at something, it isn't a tilt) that shows up sometimes when he's sleepy. He was doing that a bit more than usual for 2 days this weekend but has returned to his normal. Of all the bunnies I am watching him most closely for signs of illness because he seems to be the most medically fragile.

 

[Nancy McClelland]

If you have a Veterinary School in your time zone and zip code, I'd call them and talk to some bunny savvy people for advice.