Poopy bum

[Donna Standar]

I have a male who has had a poopy bum almost every day, he isn't eating those soft stools apparently and is sitting on them. Making a mess. They are clustered together like a raspberry..is that normal? He also has his normal hard ones. In his litter box. I'm pretty sure he's very annoyed with me, cleaning his bum almost every day now...any advice is greatly appreciated.

 

[Blue eyes]

Could you describe his daily diet? Also age, how long you've had him?

 

[Donna Standar]

He's was two in November, I've had him since birth. It's just him and his mom. Shes great, I'm thinking he's being a piggy with the pellets...because the last two days he hasn't had any took them away) and no mess finally today..I hope that was it. They just have hay, pellets , lettuce and carrot about every three days..somtimes celery.. I quit banana and apple as well... hoping the next two days things. Go back to normal

 

[JBun]

It could certainly be from too many carbs and pellets in the diet and not enough fiber from hay. It's called cecal dysbiosis when the cecals aren't properly formed, coming out pasty or semiformed, and get left uneaten because of this.

https://rabbit.org/intermittent-soft-cecotropes-in-rabbits/
https://rabbit.org/disorders-of-the-cecum/
If the cecals look like perfectly normal blackberry type clusters and not pasty at all, it could still possibly be from too rich of a diet from too many pellets. But if after reducing these things and it keeps happening, it can happen from distractions in the environment, or health issues like obesity, arthritis, or dental problems.

 

[Blue eyes]

You had the right idea to stop the banana and apple and temporarily take away the pellets. As Jenny stated, too rich of a diet can cause issues. When you see this happening, first things to go should always be the treats -- just too much sugar. Next is to limit pellets.

If his poos have since returned to normal, I'd suggest continuing not letting him have banana, apple or carrot. You can slowly offer some pellets... just a tablespoon per day to start. Keep an eye on his poos and see how he handles those limited pellets.

Then, if he's gone a good couple weeks with normal poos on eating unlimited hay, greens, and limited pellets, you could try offering some carrot or fruit-- but only a tablespoon-size piece per day. With fruits (and carrot) it is the sudden spike in sugar that can cause their gut's bacterial balance to get out of whack. That's why it is better to offer a small amount every day rather than a larger amount every several days. If poos start to get too soft when offering that small amount each day, then you'll know to back off on those treats. Some rabbits can handle more than others. Some cannot tolerate even small amounts daily. By introducing slowly and keeping the amount consistent, you'll be able to figure out your rabbit's tolerance.

 

[Nancy McClelland]

Also stop the carrot as it's high in sugar. I put our problem bunnies a timothy based pellet and they don't get too much anyway, and the problem cleared up. As long as they have unlimited hay and a balanced amount of greens, our vet said they don't need any pellet--so, as a treat they get a tablespoons worth in the morning and evening. Every once in awhile they get a very small piece of carrot, which they immediately dig out and devour like a crocodile at a watering spot!

 

[Donna Standar]

Ok, thankyou!! I always thought they needed pellets to help keep their back teeth worn, so they didn't grow spikes and have dental issues.. And carrots too. It's just hay and lettuce right. Now and he seems good today.. Finally no mess.

 

[Donna Standar]

It could certainly be from too many carbs and pellets in the diet and not enough fiber from hay. It's called cecal dysbiosis when the cecals aren't properly formed, coming out pasty or semiformed, and get left uneaten because of this.

https://rabbit.org/intermittent-soft-cecotropes-in-rabbits/
https://rabbit.org/disorders-of-the-cecum/
If the cecals look like perfectly normal blackberry type clusters and not pasty at all, it could still possibly be from too rich of a diet from too many pellets. But if after reducing these things and it keeps happening, it can happen from distractions in the environment, or health issues like obesity, arthritis, or dental problems.

So that's normal? Having that cluster like a blackberry?? I thought they came out in balls like the normal poo's .. Only smaller..
Thanks for that article.. Was very helpful

 

[Diane R]

Ok, thankyou!! I always thought they needed pellets to help keep their back teeth worn, so they didn't grow spikes and have dental issues.. And carrots too. It's just hay and lettuce right. Now and he seems good today.. Finally no mess.

Pellets do nothing for teeth. Long stemmed grass hay - lots and lots of it - and/or grass is what's needed for dental wear. Keep him on a hay diet with a small amount of fresh herbs and pellets as treats. They really don't need fruit or carrots.

 

[JBun]

Yes, normally formed cecotropes will look like a blackberry cluster, though usually you never see these as the rabbit should normally be consuming them. Sometimes the rabbit may also break them apart, so individual pieces may be found laying about. Abnormally formed cectropes will be pasty, partially formed and pasty, or may be partially formed and watery.

https://bunssb.org/bunnies/guide-bunny-poops/

 

[Donna Standar]

Pellets do nothing for teeth. Long stemmed grass hay - lots and lots of it - and/or grass is what's needed for dental wear. Keep him on a hay diet with a small amount of fresh herbs and pellets as treats. They really don't need fruit or carrots.

Actually they do, on some level as they chew them with their back teeth..not with the front ones as they do with hay.
But I'm not sure that their back teeth are used with hay or not..
Anyways, he seems fine now since I've only been giving hay, lettuce and about ten pellets each to start with per day

 

[Diane R]

Actually they do, on some level as they chew them with their back teeth..not with the front ones as they do with hay.
But I'm not sure that their back teeth are used with hay or not..
Anyways, he seems fine now since I've only been giving hay, lettuce and about ten pellets each to start with per day

No, that's wrong. Molars wear down from a circular movement of jaws grinding teeth against each other. They only move their mouths like that when eating long stemmed hay or grass. To eat hay the molars have to work hard, the incisors don't; that is why bunnies without incisors are perfectly capable of eating hay.

 

[JBun]

Tooth wear in relation to food, has mostly to do with the molars, like Diane R mentioned. Incisors are primarily used for cutting and snipping things, then with the tongue, move it back to the molars for grinding. Some foods can have a minor wearing effect on the incisors though. Like apple branches, where the rabbit uses their incisors to strip the bark, and other small branches that a rabbit will use the incisors to cut into smaller lengths to chew, and hay cubes a rabbit also uses their incisors to strip small bits off for chewing. But the main component of incisor wear has to do with proper alignment, so the top and bottom teeth properly wear against each other and the peg teeth.

For the molars, it's a combination of chewing motion and the amount of abrasiveness in the food that's being eaten. Pellets do have hay in them, so some amount of wear will occur from the food and the molars contacting each other, but not as much as occurs with long stem hay. Pellets are chewed in an up and down motion resulting in very little lateral side to side tooth contact, which is what helps the molars wear against each other and prevent sharp points from developing. With long stem hay it's a more circular chewing motion, resulting in good lateral side to side contact of the molar crowns, creating more surface contact and even wearing of the crown.

The other essential component is the silica in vegetation that provides the abrasiveness needed for optimum tooth wear of the molar crowns. Silica is like sandpaper, 'sanding' down the surface of the molar crowns as the rabbit chews on the hay/grass/vegetation in a circular motion and side to side laterally. Some vegetation doesn't have much silica content and so will create less tooth wear, some has a lot, some grasses have more than others and will help even more to keep the teeth worn down well. So for good tooth wear it takes both the abrasiveness of grasses and the chewing motion required to break down the long strands.

Here are a few links that cover some of this info.

http://mohrs.org/hay-dental-health/
http://mohrs.org/rabbit-teeth-how-they-work/
silica in hay and how it applies to rabbits

 

[Donna Standar]

Tooth wear in relation to food, has mostly to do with the molars, like Diane R mentioned. Incisors are primarily used for cutting and snipping things, then with the tongue, move it back to the molars for grinding. Some foods can have a minor wearing effect on the incisors though. Like apple branches, where the rabbit uses their incisors to strip the bark, and other small branches that a rabbit will use the incisors to cut into smaller lengths to chew, and hay cubes a rabbit also uses their incisors to strip small bits off for chewing. But the main component of incisor wear has to do with proper alignment, so the top and bottom teeth properly wear against each other and the peg teeth.

For the molars, it's a combination of chewing motion and the amount of abrasiveness in the food that's being eaten. Pellets do have hay in them, so some amount of wear will occur from the food and the molars contacting each other, but not as much as occurs with long stem hay. Pellets are chewed in an up and down motion resulting in very little lateral side to side tooth contact, which is what helps the molars wear against each other and prevent sharp points from developing. With long stem hay it's a more circular chewing motion, resulting in good lateral side to side contact of the molar crowns, creating more surface contact and even wearing of the crown.

The other essential component is the silica in vegetation that provides the abrasiveness needed for optimum tooth wear of the molar crowns. Silica is like sandpaper, 'sanding' down the surface of the molar crowns as the rabbit chews on the hay/grass/vegetation in a circular motion and side to side laterally. Some vegetation doesn't have much silica content and so will create less tooth wear, some has a lot, some grasses have more than others and will help even more to keep the teeth worn down well. So for good tooth wear it takes both the abrasiveness of grasses and the chewing motion required to break down the long strands.

Here are a few links that cover some of this info.

http://mohrs.org/hay-dental-health/
http://mohrs.org/rabbit-teeth-how-they-work/
silica in hay and how it applies to rabbits

Thankyou for that info, I had no idea their back teeth were used for hay. You only see them use their front teeth. Good to know.

 

[Nancy McClelland]

If you really watch closely you can see them grinding with the molars--the fronts are used more as choppers, but they do need hay to wear down all their teeth, both in the front and back. I have had to take in some of the elders to get back teeth spikes filed down and mis-aligned front teeth trimmed as they don't match up and wear down like normally aligned fronts.

 

[Orrin]

We have a sweet little doe that has had occasional GI issues all her life; I can't count the times we've rushed her to the vet because of GI stasis.

We thought we had all the problems resolved; but soon after the loss of her bonded buddy it happened, again. The good docs took care of her after they'd already put in a long hectic day. (I felt horrible for ruining their evening.)

Then, ten days later she suffered another bout, this time on a weekend. She seemed to be willing herself to die. But... so that she knows she is not all alone, we brought in her mommy (one of the two in the avatar) whom she had not seen for years; gave her a gentle tummy massage which seemed to get things moving, again; but....

She developed a horrendous case of poopy butt and was leaving smears of soft cecotropes all over the house. She pulled out of her nosedive; but, was still not out of the woods; so...

...we applied tough love and are adhering strictly to the instructions in the "Intermittent Soft Cecotropes" article that has already been referenced in this discussion. No carbohydrates! None!

Besides, we drastically cut back on greens and what we do give her we mix in with hay which she is now eating like a champ; but...

...there is one thing more: Although she has always had two water bowls at her feeding station, we scattered small ones at all of her favorite places so that she is only one hop away from water.

This seems to have made a huge change in her urine output. This tells us she is staying well hydrated, much better than before. And... so far, so good. Not only has her GI system started working well, she is slimming down, her behavior has changed: Perky, inquisitive, happy.

Tough love. Do away with carrots and anything else with carbohydrates in them. In our case it brought our baby back from the brink; for a while we convinced we had lost her. Now, she's happy and healthy.

Tough love.

 

[Donna Standar]

They have been good since quit apple and banana. Drastically reduced pellets..just hay and greens and they've been great. Thanks