Please help me

[Melmo]

I became a member here because I took over the care of the bunnies my daughter bought two years ago that did nothing but sit in cages because she got bored with them. When she purchased them she was told they were BOTH female. When I was building their enclosures, that take up my entire dinning room, I found out real quick they were NOT both female. I went from two to ten real quick. Now we had separated what we thought were the males from the females yet they are ALL humping. Now I am scared beyond belief that we have made a terrible mistake.
I have been desperately trying to find them all forever homes but everyone that has responded to my adds has said things that keep me from letting them go. I do NOT want them to go to homes that are not going to show them the love and care I have. So I have been denying each person who has inquired about My Babies.
Then today after starting yet another separate enclosure because what I thought were my males that have been fighting, I noticed my ladies humping.
Ok I admit I love my accidental Babies beyond belief, had to hand feed three because her litter was so big, but I CAN NOT care for anymore. What do I do to make sure my sexing was correct? I am waiting on a response from the 4H leader in my area. I have contacted my vet, one I may add that wants a 59 dollar office call for EACH to determine their ***. I AM POSITIVE we did it the right way but they are still humping. One I might add I we thought for sure was a MALE has ****ies I can feel. PLEASE HELP ME. I CANNOT care for anymore babies. Right now I spend 15 dollars every other day just on their fruits and veggies not to mention pellets and hay.
I am terrified I may have more babies coming now.
I’m begging PLEASE don’t attack me for my ignorance and only offer help.

 

[Shubox]

All rabbits will hump regardless of ***. Since they are all unaltered they need to be separated completely. Rabbits are surprisingly territorial, so even if you have females and males separate they will fight and may seriously injure each other. See if there are any rabbit rescues in your area and see how many they can take. Ask friends and family to be foster parents while you look for forever homes. It is important to get them all away from each other.


EDIT: https://www.indianahrs.org/ Perhaps this organization can be some help for you.

 

[Blue eyes]

Agreed. None of them should be housed together at this point. Each individual rabbit needs its own separate cage/area. Humping for dominance can quickly lead to fighting as well. Rabbits can literally fight to the death or cause serious injury to another rabbit.

How old are the babies now?

 

[Preitler]

First, take pictures of the neither region of every single bunny and post them here to get a second opinion about ***. Search or google pictures for "how to *** rabbits" to see how the pictures should be made.

You can keep the doelings with mom, if they have enough room, and also some hidy houses (cardboard boxes with at least 2 openings) to get out of sight if they feel like it. I keep them (20-25 litters until now without a problem) with the 2 old does up to 5-6 months, humping and some tufts of fur flying is normal social behaviour, they learn to live in a hierachy. But for 10 rabbits, one room, divided, is not much, will make life... interesting.
Intact males, on the other hand, are a different thing, when they come of age they can start fighting for real, the mood can snap from one minute to the next even if they got along well for a long time. Even if they don't kill each other injuries can occur. Their agenda is not so much to build a hierachy, but to drive a rival away, depending on their characters that can escalate since there's no way to get away - wihich imho is recieved as an afront to the alpha.

They have fluctuations in their hormones, so you'll never be sure that there's a stable situation.


Second: Lower your expectations somewhat. You sell the rabbits, they go out of your resposibility. Give advice, give them a list of what is really important and basics about how to feed and care for a rabbit. Include the drawbacks, like, the story of your daughter losing interest, "not really cuddly", long lifespan etc.
But if there aren't BIG red flags I wouldn't send a buyer away - or you're about to start a hoarder career. So many intact rabbits in a small space become a major chore and a mess quickly.
Wrong sexing does happen even to experienced people (we claim that the *** change fairy paied a visit though ) and when I'm not absolutly sure I get a second opinion.

EDIT: Wait, how old are they now?

 

[Melmo]

They were born September 29 so they are about 3 and a half months old.
I will get my husband to help with taking the photos today. He has a way of getting them super calm and content that I wish I possessed. They adore him.
Thanks so much for the advice. This group is a God send for sure.

 

[zuppa]

Hi, I remember your situation from another thread about a month ago
https://www.rabbitsonline.net/threads/normal-or-did-i-make-a-very-big-mistake.96506/#post-1126791

Firstly I want to apologise if you thought I was attacking you absolutely not I just know well how it goes when babies grow to 3-3,5 months and you need to separate them all and there's lots of cleaning etc, I know too well because I've been there myself and just wanted to warn you!

Now, you have two options, you need to find them new homes or keep them all. As they grow you will have more problems because they will need more space and need to be separated or will fight, females can also hump each other and fight for dominance, fixing them all would help but it will be very expensive. So I second what Preitler said you need to lower your expectations, just give people some instructions and changeover food for a week or so so they could safely transfer them to their new food or continue with the brand you use, give them general advice and ask them to send you some photo time to time, there's always risk that the new owners will get bored after a couple months as your daughter did but it's just a matter of luck and you can't control everything.

I am not attacking you I just want to help as you were asking for help.

Here's a link to sexing photos now your rabbits are 3,5 months old and firstly check if testicles are in place you can easily identify the boys, if not then pay attention to the distance between anus and *****/******, for girls they are much closer than boys.
https://www.rabbitsonline.net/threads/sexing-rabbit-pictures.44936/

If you can post here clear photo you will surely get some help with sexing, but as was said above you should in fact separate all the babies now no matter boys or girls as they can really harm each other and even kill each other for dominance. Or can become aggressive and it will be even harder to find new homes for them no one wants an aggressive rabbit. You can try bonding girls but it's not easy, sometimes they just naturally can stay together up to 5 months but it depends, they can start fighting any minute.

I wish you good luck anyway you go.

 

[Jacaroe]

I don't have any feedback on the sexing of the buns as we struggled with that too. Our "rabbit-savvy" vets around here are pathetic so that in itself is a challenge. We had to drive 90 minutes to get our "female" bun spayed, to find out that "he" would instead be neutered. Yes, we had the *** wrong all the way up to the date. It's sometimes very difficult, even for some vets.

You mentioned that you spend $15/day on fruits and veggies for your buns, and - I don't know about the little ones - but I can say for the older ones, that's not necessary. I have my 3 y/o on a strict diet of pellets (1/2 C/day) and all the hay he can eat, which runs me about $20 every 4 weeks or so, buying retail (which is one of the more expensive ways. Cheaper if you have a hay farm nearby). When I was buying bales at TSC, it cost about $30 and fed/bedded my single bun for almost 6 months. I do give fruits and greens, but only as a treat, and it serves all of us fine. With all the bunnies you have on your hands right now, I would not worry about any non-necessities.

Otherwise, it sounds like you have been given some really good advice here. Good luck, I hope you are able to find a good resolution soon!

 

[Melmo]

At no point and time have I ever felt attached here so God bless your heart for even taking a moment of your time to apologize, which I thank you for but by no means was needed since you say nothing wrong. Thankfully the cost feeding my babies is not my concern. Finding them loving homes is my true concern. You all have said what my husband and best friend has expressed. Believe me my mind knows this but my heart doesn’t. I have seen so many things about stupid people buying bunnies to feed their snakes and I know first hand what they can go through when I kid wants one but doesn’t truly understand the responsibility. That being said I am blessed with a almost 4000 square foot home which has a very large loft not currently being utilized so starting tomorrow I will be building many more enclosures to accommodate them until I can find them forever homes. Sadly since I have been so sick today with a stomach bug I haven’t been able to do photos. Heck cleaning and feeding them no joke takes me a little over three hours to do. Maybe tomorrow will be a better day.
I understand they may not need the fresh fruits and veggies every single day but it’s so rewarding to watch how they circle around and jump when I feed them. They are the sweetest little things and each has it’s own sweet personality. We have one, Cleo, our runt we Affectionately refer to as the licker, that just wants you to sit with her while she licks. If I have to keep them all and get them spayed and neutered then I will before I take a chance on them being unloved. I have had to hand feed a few since the litter was so large and loved these little guys so much I simply cannot bare the thought of their lives not continuing in the same manner. And trust me when I know the work and time that goes with this task. I do want them to go to good homes and I have to ensure that is going to happen. I’m not trying to make money off of a mistake that was made. I would give them to someone as long as I know they will take care of and love them the way they need to be.
And truly I am nothing but thankful and eternally grateful to this group. I have been leaning on you guys for months now. LOL. I’m a navy wife with a very tough skin so when I ask for advice I know I’m opening myself to ALL opinions. Thank you and God be with each of you

 

[zuppa]

Hi, I came to this site to learn and there's no shame in making mistakes and asking for opinions, I learn through my mistakes (well I believe I do but I keep making same mistakes sometimes too).
Sure you listen to opinions but decide what you think is best for you in your situation, as you feel it.
I just want to say a few more words here, I surprised no one actually said that yet.

Firstly, about fruits and veg you say you spend 15 dollars every other day on them, even with 10 rabbits that would be lots of fruit and actually with babies under 6 months it is not recommended at all feed them fruits and vegs.
Until your babies are 4 months old (recommended from 6 months) they should have unlimited water, unlimited hay and unlimited pellets (up to 4 normal day portions, nursing mother is also getting unlimited pellets), then you reduce their daily pellets gradually and after 4 (or 6 months recommended) you start adding green leafy vegetables to their diet, only one type a day and only in small amounts. Carrots, apples and other fruits are not recommended or in very limited quantities as a treat once a week a small slice of apple or a thumb-sized piece of carrot for example. So giving too much fruits/vegs is actually not good at all, only you give because you like their reaction but you also have to think about their health.
There are people raising rabbits only on fresh diet but they are professionals with lots of experience and good understanding of rabbit health and diet so as I understand this is your first experience with rabbits and you use standard dry food and hay from pet stores.

The other thing that holding rabbits on their back is not good for them and can lead to injuries, when they flop and relax themselves it's different but when you do it to play with them they can actually damage their back so not recommended at all. Vets can do it for their checks but do it very carefully and only when needed. They also can be put into a trance-like state of paralysis so just be careful and don't use it unless there's need for it.
It is cute but please be aware it is not safe

 

[Preitler]

As you may have noticed, there are different opinions about how to feed, and not one is exclusivly right. I just throw in one more :
Keep feeding whatever you feed, that "hay and pellets only up to 4 months" is just for rabbits that never had anything else, or if it is unknown what they have been fed before getting them. It's the most convinient and safe way to feed, and not a too bad one.
Kits can get whatever the doe is used to.
Fruits, and some vegetables, are high in sugars and should be limited, 3 apples or carrots per day is enough sweets for all 10 rabbits together. I would not feed something once per week, since that way they cant get properly used to it, but a very consistant diet every day. Additional veggies are great, and right, it is adorable when they come to get it, but hay is the next best thing to fresh forage and should be a big part of their diet because they need to wear their teeth down.
I feed fresh forage whenever available and little pellets, that's easy to do and for free if one has the resources, time and a scythe, and that's what my kits grow up on (I avoid litters in winter, for various reasons, it wouldn't make much sense to buy extra hay and feed). It has advantages, but drawbacks too - like the possibility of bringing in disease, so I wouldn't really recommend it for pet rabbits in regions with wild rabbits around.

 

[majorv]

My two cents on finding them homes. We raised/showed rabbits for about 9 years (until my daughter went off to vet school). If we had a rabbit we needed to pet out we always told the prospective buyer we would take the rabbit back if they decided they didn’t want to keep it. A couple of them actually did return their rabbit, and we found a good home for them. One contacted us just recently (six years after adopting!), but we found this senior rabbit a good home also...it was nice to see him again.

We always tried to follow up with new owners, too, to see how they were doing, and to answer any questions.

Just some ideas to help you part with them.

 

[Nunu]

You could try giving them an adoption fee of around $40, more if you want, because that can really decrease the chances of them becoming snake food seeing as most people are probably not going to want to spend $40 on one meal for their pet snake. It may take them longer to sell, however it would mean that more dedicated people are going to be the ones purchasing. You could also pair that with majorv’s technique and offer to take a bunny back if the person decides not to keep it.

 

[Donna Standar]

Hi, I came to this site to learn and there's no shame in making mistakes and asking for opinions, I learn through my mistakes (well I believe I do but I keep making same mistakes sometimes too).
Sure you listen to opinions but decide what you think is best for you in your situation, as you feel it.
I just want to say a few more words here, I surprised no one actually said that yet.

Firstly, about fruits and veg you say you spend 15 dollars every other day on them, even with 10 rabbits that would be lots of fruit and actually with babies under 6 months it is not recommended at all feed them fruits and vegs.
Until your babies are 4 months old (recommended from 6 months) they should have unlimited water, unlimited hay and unlimited pellets (up to 4 normal day portions, nursing mother is also getting unlimited pellets), then you reduce their daily pellets gradually and after 4 (or 6 months recommended) you start adding green leafy vegetables to their diet, only one type a day and only in small amounts. Carrots, apples and other fruits are not recommended or in very limited quantities as a treat once a week a small slice of apple or a thumb-sized piece of carrot for example. So giving too much fruits/vegs is actually not good at all, only you give because you like their reaction but you also have to think about their health.
There are people raising rabbits only on fresh diet but they are professionals with lots of experience and good understanding of rabbit health and diet so as I understand this is your first experience with rabbits and you use standard dry food and hay from pet stores.

The other thing that holding rabbits on their back is not good for them and can lead to injuries, when they flop and relax themselves it's different but when you do it to play with them they can actually damage their back so not recommended at all. Vets can do it for their checks but do it very carefully and only when needed. They also can be put into a trance-like state of paralysis so just be careful and don't use it unless there's need for it.
It is cute but please be aware it is not safe

Respectfully, I have to disagree on your feeding guide.
Baby bunnies can eat whatever the mother eats, they just won't until their ready. Mine started out just nibbling on hay, pellets. But eventually at 4 weeks started with green's.
Apple's are ok daily as long as it's just a small amount, (adults no more than a tbsp a day)
At 5 weeks, baby was taking lettuce, parsley, spinach, whatever, from mom's mouth. And he's just fine.
I give one food that is a vitamin A , e.g. parsley,spinach,kale, once a day, unlimited hay, one lettuce a day. And carrots very sparingly. Once a week, very small piece. Pellets morning and night...about half a cup.
I'm not sure where you heard the limitations on baby bunnies diet, but unlimited water is a must. They drink when they need to. All bunnies need water available.
This is just my opinion, I'd love to hear others opinion on this as well...

 

[zuppa]

Respectfully, I have to disagree on your feeding guide.
Baby bunnies can eat whatever the mother eats, they just won't until their ready. Mine started out just nibbling on hay, pellets. But eventually at 4 weeks started with green's.
Apple's are ok daily as long as it's just a small amount, (adults no more than a tbsp a day)
At 5 weeks, baby was taking lettuce, parsley, spinach, whatever, from mom's mouth. And he's just fine.
I give one food that is a vitamin A , e.g. parsley,spinach,kale, once a day, unlimited hay, one lettuce a day. And carrots very sparingly. Once a week, very small piece. Pellets morning and night...about half a cup.
I'm not sure where you heard the limitations on baby bunnies diet, but unlimited water is a must. They drink when they need to. All bunnies need water available.
This is just my opinion, I'd love to hear others opinion on this as well...

Hi.
I actually said UNlimited water and hay!
I agree with you that babies can have some greens from their mother that is until she stops nursing because her milk helps to digest anything, but after they are weaned greens and fruits can cause upset stomach so I was talking about time after weaning to 4-6 months, however you can try giving dark leafy greens in small amounts after weaning as well and watch them if there's any problem like diarrhea or gurgling stomach, bloating, blockages it is best to avoid until their stomach is strong enough.
Also kale and parsley are high on calcium and so I only give once or twice a week, they love them but excess of calcium is not good from what I researched. I give one type of greens at once, especially with the young weaned babies, some have better stomach and some have soft poos after some greens so I can control which greens caused that.
I've had 8 successful litters of 4-8 babies over the past year (from different parents) and my oldest babies are now 9 months old. My rabbits are 100% indoors and I had some babies with upset stomach I had to isolate them and they were cured and recovered but one I remember I thought she won't make it. But she did!
I've only lost one baby (possibly was born dead) and all other babies growing strong and healthy so I know well what I am talking about. Of course you can have your own rules if you have enough experience, if you can grow your hay/grass/herbs and make own food it's different, in my comment I just gave an example of a no-trouble diet, but sure some babies have stronger stomach and have no problem with digesting greens.

What I was trying to say, too much fruit/veg is not very good for 3 months old babies and I imagine for 15 dollars it will be a lot, even for 10 rabbits, 2 adults and 8 babies. As said above 3 apples OR 3 carrots would be enough for sweets for all 10 rabbits. It's not because I can't spend more on my rabbits but because I want them to grow healthy and live long happy lives

 

[Donna Standar]

Hi.
I actually said UNlimited water and hay!
I agree with you that babies can have some greens from their mother that is until she stops nursing because her milk helps to digest anything, but after they are weaned greens and fruits can cause upset stomach so I was talking about time after weaning to 4-6 months, however you can try giving dark leafy greens in small amounts after weaning as well and watch them if there's any problem like diarrhea or gurgling stomach, bloating, blockages it is best to avoid until their stomach is strong enough.
Also kale and parsley are high on calcium and so I only give once or twice a week, they love them but excess of calcium is not good from what I researched. I give one type of greens at once, especially with the young weaned babies, some have better stomach and some have soft poos after some greens so I can control which greens caused that.
I've had 8 successful litters of 4-8 babies over the past year (from different parents) and my oldest babies are now 9 months old. My rabbits are 100% indoors and I had some babies with upset stomach I had to isolate them and they were cured and recovered but one I remember I thought she won't make it. But she did!
I've only lost one baby (possibly was born dead) and all other babies growing strong and healthy so I know well what I am talking about. Of course you can have your own rules if you have enough experience, if you can grow your hay/grass/herbs and make own food it's different, in my comment I just gave an example of a no-trouble diet, but sure some babies have stronger stomach and have no problem with digesting greens.

What I was trying to say, too much fruit/veg is not very good for 3 months old babies and I imagine for 15 dollars it will be a lot, even for 10 rabbits, 2 adults and 8 babies. As said above 3 apples OR 3 carrots would be enough for sweets for all 10 rabbits. It's not because I can't spend more on my rabbits but because I want them to grow healthy and live long happy lives

Oh, I misread the hay and water part. Sorry
And yes, kale and parsley are not every day, I alternate with spinach as well.

 

[Melmo]

I’m sorry I cannot read any of this right now.
I moved My Thumper to another floor of the house because I made a post about removing him from Willow and the babies. From Willow there will be no more accidental babies and the boys because he was humping them and I was scared he would hurt them. When I separated them he did everything to get to Willow and finally stopped even coming out of his kennel, a kennel that I kept the door open all day every day and ONLY closed at night. Everyone felt it was because he was still near her. And I did take him to the vet and move him to a completely different floor. The vet ran blood work and lots of tests. Most I got the results of this morning that showed NOTHING was medically wrong with him. Yet last night when I went to love on him before I went to sleep as I do each of them, he was gone. I had just been with him a few hours before and he was ok but HE WAS GONE! When the vet called this morning he said all he could say is that maybe he couldn’t handle being separated from her. Their surgery is scheduled for Monday but he could make it that long without her. I DID THIS TO MY BABY BY TAKING HIM COMPLETELY AWAY FROM HER!!!! I essentially killed the sweetest little, big guy ever because it took me so long to acquire the small fortune vets here want to spay and neuter bunnies.
And for those that want to judge and say I didn’t feed them right the vet told me he didn’t know anyone else around here willing to take the time nor money to give them what I have. And for those that may want to say if I had taken the money I have spent in food and used it to get their surgery well even every penny I have spent on greens since the babies would have covered it. I killed him I know that and I have to live with that fact. And I’ll tell ya I’m not doing well living with it. My Twenty-Six wedding anniversary went from a wonderful day to a nightmare in the blink of a eye. I cried myself to sleep. I cried digging his grave and OMG even harder putting him in it. I’m NOT blaming anyone but myself but it’s just not fair that it costs so damn much to spay and neuter them. He didn’t deserve this. Forgive me but right now I am hurting and so damn angry but there is no one I am more angry with than myself for killing him

 

[Melmo]

RIP Thumper. I’m so so sorry.

 

[cosmoluna]

Don’t blame yourself for poor Thumper’s death. Rabbit care can get SO complicated, but also remember that animal behaviour is unpredictable sometimes. Hold his memory close to your heart and find the other bunnies good homes in his honor. I’m sorry about poor Thumper, and about the whole situation, just remember that he would’ve been much less happy and healthy without you being such a great bun mom. Thumper was lucky to have your care, just as much as you were lucky to have him as your bunny. Hope you can find peace soon.

 

[zuppa]

Sorry to hear that, poor Thumper.
You should try finding new homes for the babies asap some can get very depressed when isolated from their mates and also when you have 9 rabbits you physically can't give each enough attention so they won't feel lonely. So best you can do is to find new homes where people will have time for them, with one or two rabbits it's not that difficult as with ten rabbits kept in separate enclosures. Depression is a very serious problem with rabbits, they can stop eating and get a GI stasis and die or develop other illnesses.