Nursing Mama Holland Lop with Poopy Butt

[MoonMama]

Hey Everyone,
I have an 8 month old Holland Lop, 4.3 pounds. She gave birth to 6 kits successfully two weeks ago. She has a horrible case of poopy butt. I have read that I should fall back on pellets and feed only hay, but I am concerned about her getting enough nutrition to produce milk. She is looking for food more now than before giving birth. So, what should I be feeding her - and how do I clean her butt? Should I try cornstarch, or should I be doing a shallow bath? Wet cloth? I don't want her to get that fly disease. Any help you can give would be greatly appreciated. My area is impossible for finding a helpful vet for bunnies!

 

[JBun]

If your rabbit has cecal dysbiosis where the fecal poop is normal round balls and it's the cecals that are mushy and messy, normally a grass hay only diet is the recommended course to clear up a basic case. But with her nursing, grass hay won't provide the necessary protein and calcium that is needed for a nursing doe. If it's not the cecals that are mushy, but also the fecal poop is mushy and not normal round balls, this is diarrhea and is considered an emergency with rabbits. But for just mushy cecals to clear up when it's from a dietary cause and not some other issue like liver disease, I can see only two options right now.

Abruptly change to a more expensive higher quality pellet like oxbow junior, and hope the sudden change doesn't in itself cause more gut disruption, and see if that helps at all. Or feed a hay only diet(plus water and salt lick) but have it be a mix of alfalfa hay and free fed grass hay, with more of the alfalfa being fed so she will get the higher protein and calcium she needs. If you try both things and there is no improvement at all after 2 weeks, there could be a possible medical issue causing the mushy cecals, in which case you would need to find a decent rabbit vet to try and figure out what's going on.
https://sawneeanimalclinic.com/downloads/chronic_intermittent_diarrhea_in_rabbits.pdf
After this has cleared up and you try reintroducing your usual pellet brand again, if the cecal dysbiosis reoccurs, then it's likely the pellet you are feeding now is problematic for this rabbit and she may need to be on a different pellet or more limited pellet/free fed hay diet, to keep if from coming back.

For cleaning, if her bum is really soiled, a butt bath is probably necessary. But thorough drying in a correct manner is important too.
http://www.disabledrabbits.com/baths--cleaning.html

 

[MoonMama]

Thank you sincerely for your input!
Yes her regular poop is normal round balls-it seems just the cecals are causing the mess. I will try the better pellets. She is currently on a brand that is local here in Oregon and organic. But I don’t know the specific breakdown of nutrients. I will find Oxbow junior. Should I be giving leafy greens?
She does have two pretty big crusty clumps on her bum so we will try the shallow bath tomorrow.
I am so appreciative of your response. Thank you again!

 

[JBun]

Ideally, hay only is the best option for correcting cecal dysbiosis, but if you want to try the other pellets first, it might work out.

Oxbow junior is just one option. You basically need a low starch/carb, high fiber pellet. There's also Sherwood baby pellets that are probably the lowest for carbs, but do have a higher fat content. If there's no improvement at all after a week of the pellet change, or it worsens, I would just go right to a free fed hay only diet.

You may want to hold off on leafy greens for now, because you won't know if they are contributing to the problem if your bun happens to be sensitive to them. And definitely no high carb/sugary foods.

 

[MoonMama]

Ok, sounds good. Thank you so much for the help!

 

[MoonMama]

Update: we survived our first butt bath with Misty Moon! We found everything we need today at the feed store, so here’s hoping! Thanks again so much.

 

[MoonMama]

I am sad to report that we lost the runt in the night. I found it by itself in a corner no longer alive. I feel terrible.
I worry that mama isn’t consistently nursing the babies. She seems irritated with them. They are only 19 days old today. But I see them try to dive under to nurse and she almost always jumps off and away. Maybe it is different at night though. The other 5 seem just fine-zooming around like crazy. I wonder if because the runt had become so fluffy with fur, if I couldn’t tellthat it wasn’t being fed? I just feel awful like I must have missed something.

The mama seems ravenously hungry.
Questions I have are:
Do I give mama unlimited access to the new type of pellet or just feed her a couple times per day? I have been giving unlimited hay in the hutch. Is there a concern about weight gain while a doe is nursing?
Should I give a salt/mineral lick even if feeding pellets or only if doing a hay only?

we did a ‘spot wash’ of her bum yesterday because there was a bit of poop and I didn’t want it to get bad again.

anyway, thanks for any input.

 

[zuppa]

I am sad to report that we lost the runt in the night. I found it by itself in a corner no longer alive. I feel terrible.
I worry that mama isn’t consistently nursing the babies. She seems irritated with them. They are only 19 days old today. But I see them try to dive under to nurse and she almost always jumps off and away. Maybe it is different at night though. The other 5 seem just fine-zooming around like crazy. I wonder if because the runt had become so fluffy with fur, if I couldn’t tellthat it wasn’t being fed? I just feel awful like I must have missed something.

The mama seems ravenously hungry.
Questions I have are:
Do I give mama unlimited access to the new type of pellet or just feed her a couple times per day? I have been giving unlimited hay in the hutch. Is there a concern about weight gain while a doe is nursing?
Should I give a salt/mineral lick even if feeding pellets or only if doing a hay only?

we did a ‘spot wash’ of her bum yesterday because there was a bit of poop and I didn’t want it to get bad again.

anyway, thanks for any input.

Nursing mama won't get fat don't worry about it.

You can feed like 4 times a day to control if she has good appetite and babies should start eating her pellets soon as well, from 3-4 weeks. You can give them up to 250 gram pellets for 24 hours at a time if you prefer. I like feeding 4-6 times a day.

Babies when they are 3 weeks old are always hungry and will follow her and will try to get some milk any minute, so she needs a place where she can hide from them, it can be a high shelf where she only fits and they can't follow her there, or a tiny hide where they can't reach her belly. She gets irritated because they won't let her sleep constantly chasing her begging for milk.

Can you post a pic of your setup so we can see what can be done

 

[MoonMama]

Thank you so much for your reply. Here are pics of the set up. She often hides in the little cupboard area.

 

[MoonMama]

Still wondering if I should give mama a salt lick, or is that only if feeding a hay only diet?

 

[SirLawrence]

Generally rabbits don't need salt or mineral licks.

I gave Lawrence one when I first got him, before I did any research, and he ignored it.

https://bunnylady.com/salt-licks/

 

[JBun]

Moms will usually only let the babies nurse once or twice a day. Any other time she will avoid their attempts. So yeah, make sure she has somewhere she can get away from them. Mine would hop in the litter box to avoid her babies pestering her. It was actually kind of funny the first time they started coming out of the nesting box. All of these baby bunnies hopping around trying to find mom to nurse off of, and she finally made it into the litter box with a look of pure panic on her face. Poor girl.

Your kits are old enough now that they'll start nibbling on hay. Plus the fact they're active and seem healthy at this age indicates she's been nursing them fine. Sorry about the runt. I would imagine it probably had some sort of genetic issue going on that you wouldn't have been able to do anything about.

I would be feeding the mom close to unlimited pellets. Nursing mom's need 3-4 times the usual amount of pellets at least, to support those growing babies. If she is eating a pile of hay the size of her body per day, I would feed as much pellets as she wants, provided it's not causing any serious digestive issues. If she's not eating enough hay, I would maybe feed enough pellets to last 10 hours, let her eat hay for the next 2 hours, then feed pellets again at the 12 hour mark. Then always unlimited grass hay. And a salt lick isn't necessary with her getting pellets, as the pellets already contain the needed dietary sodium.

 

[MoonMama]

Thank you so much for your replies! This is very helpful. The other 5 kits seem to be doing well and are super active. I am building a shelf to put in the hutch as a place she can get away from the babies. That’s so cute about your rabbit in the litter box!

 

[MoonMama]

Hello everyone! I am really struggling. My nursing mama holland lop has pretty constant poopy butt. I am dry cleaning it every other day to keep it managed. But this morning I discovered that all 5 kits have crusty poop stuck to the fur around their butts too! I am confused. I have ample hay and the high quality oxbow junior pellets in the hutch, and plenty of water. I am only feeding a very small bit of greens to mama every day. The kits will be 4 weeks old on Wednesday. What do I do?

 

[zuppa]

Hello everyone! I am really struggling. My nursing mama holland lop has pretty constant poopy butt. I am dry cleaning it every other day to keep it managed. But this morning I discovered that all 5 kits have crusty poop stuck to the fur around their butts too! I am confused. I have ample hay and the high quality oxbow junior pellets in the hutch, and plenty of water. I am only feeding a very small bit of greens to mama every day. The kits will be 4 weeks old on Wednesday. What do I do?

Hi, it is actually not very unusual that babies get a little poopy around the time they start eating their mother's food, and this usually around 3-4 weeks. I would just brush out those poos like twice a week and it should improve naturally within the next couple weeks. They are leaving their cecals smashed around that time as well because their diet is changing.

If babies are now 4 weeks she will nurse for another 2-4 weeks and it's not long really so I would just keep dry cleaning her poopy butt as you do now, and after the babies are weaned you can gradually reduce her pellets so it should improve. I wouldn't cut on pellets while she is nursing.

I would be actually very interested to see her poopy butt if you could take some pics, it is always easier to understand from pics than from description, how bad it is.

If there's a serious case of cecal dysbiosis and her cecals come in nasty large submarines all the time, I would maybe think of weaning a bit earlier (that is if babies are all fat and strong and eating solid food and hay) like at 6-7 weeks so you'd be able to reduce her pellets sooner.

 

[JBun]

It's going to be the greens and/or the pellets, provided the hay is good quality. You can try stopping the greens and see if that helps, but it's likely you are going to need to reduce pellet amounts.

Since the babies are older, they'll be eating more solid food now, so reducing pellet amounts hopefully shouldn't be too much of an issue affecting the nursing. I've found holland lops tend to be sensitive to to many pellets in the diet and usually need a higher hay and fiber diet to prevent poopy bum from occurring.

If you're concerned about the mom not getting enough protein and calcium from having reduced pellets, you can always try adding in a bit of alfalfa hay instead. That will help supplement the needed protein and calcium for nursing.

For the next few days while the poopy butt is getting cleared up, you'll want to make sure to keep the kits bums cleaned off so they don't get dried poop blocking their rectum.

 

[MoonMama]

Hi, it is actually not very unusual that babies get a little poopy around the time they start eating their mother's food, and this usually around 3-4 weeks. I would just brush out those poos like twice a week and it should improve naturally within the next couple weeks. They are leaving their cecals smashed around that time as well because their diet is changing.

If babies are now 4 weeks she will nurse for another 2-4 weeks and it's not long really so I would just keep dry cleaning her poopy butt as you do now, and after the babies are weaned you can gradually reduce her pellets so it should improve. I wouldn't cut on pellets while she is nursing.

I would be actually very interested to see her poopy butt if you could take some pics, it is always easier to understand from pics than from description, how bad it is.

If there's a serious case of cecal dysbiosis and her cecals come in nasty large submarines all the time, I would maybe think of weaning a bit earlier (that is if babies are all fat and strong and eating solid food and hay) like at 6-7 weeks so you'd be able to reduce her pellets sooner.

Her butt looks a bit better today actually-no big clumps. I really appreciate this breakdown of info. Since it’s our first time it is hard to know all of these specifics. So many unexpected details! I am learning a lot. I did notice she had a clumped poop today but most of hers are normal balls except for the ones that are smeared on the hutch floor each morning. We keep cleaning...
Thanks again!

 

[MoonMama]

It's going to be the greens and/or the pellets, provided the hay is good quality. You can try stopping the greens and see if that helps, but it's likely you are going to need to reduce pellet amounts.

Since the babies are older, they'll be eating more solid food now, so reducing pellet amounts hopefully shouldn't be too much of an issue affecting the nursing. I've found holland lops tend to be sensitive to to many pellets in the diet and usually need a higher hay and fiber diet to prevent poopy bum from occurring.

If you're concerned about the mom not getting enough protein and calcium from having reduced pellets, you can always try adding in a bit of alfalfa hay instead. That will help supplement the needed protein and calcium for nursing.

For the next few days while the poopy butt is getting cleared up, you'll want to make sure to keep the kits bums cleaned off so they don't get dried poop blocking their rectum.

Ok, thank you. To clarify do you mean reduce pellets some and add alfalfa hay? It’s helpful to know this is a Holland Lop tendency. Do you think a dry clean of the babies is good or should I use a pet wipe? Each baby had a couple of little poop balls and some debris on their fur near the butt. Thank you again! So appreciative.

 

[zuppa]

Do you think a dry clean of the babies is good or should I use a pet wipe? Each baby had a couple of little poop balls and some debris on their fur near the butt. Thank you again! So appreciative.

I do both, first remove all the poos with baby comb and then use unscented baby wipes or just damp cloth

 

[MoonMama]

Here is one of the babies...the little poops are like cement! I am trying to just work them out of the fur with cornstarch, but I feel like a comb would pull out the fur...