Not eating....need opinions..... Randy?

[Maureen Las]

yeh I do realize that you're in a bind with this but stick with it awhile longer...

I have never had a bun with this problem becauseI usually adopt adults but if I did have one I would be strugglling like you are because the vets here are only partially knowledgeable.
I'm really sorry that you are going through this

 

[murph72]

Thanks for all your support. Really, I truly appreciate it. I'm accustomed to sometimes losing baby bunnies, but you expect it early on when they have weaning difficulties or before they're out of the nest. I'm not so accustomed to babies this age having difficulties.

I gave Bentley more sub q fluids, another dose of simethicone, and some more of the CC mixture and sent him to bed with his rice sock (not so sure he likes it as he's not exactly snuggling with it). I was amazed that his earlier sub q fluids are gone already...I guess his little body isn't getting as much liquid as I think it's getting.

His poop was still runny, but it was mixed with some semi-formed poo that was more like what he's had since Wednesday night. I'm probably grasping at signs of hope at this point. He still has energy to fight me when he thinks he's had enough of me monkeying with him, but he didn't fight me as much on the needle stick as last time....so I guess those two signs even themselves out. He's also still majorly concerned about his hygiene and tries to clean himself after every episode with me. I hate to tell him that he's still pretty dirty...I figure it's the last of issues he should be concerned about.

 

[tonyshuman]

He's going to be losing a lot of fluid, both from peeing and diarrhea. ray:

 

[ra7751]

OK....I am going be be quite blunt here both to help this rabbit and also to drive home some points across the board.  No intention of stepping on anyone's toes...just shooting from the hip...so to speak.

In this particular case, I see from the profile that the location is in PA.  Contact Penn State University as I believe they have a veterinary program.  If driving distance is a concern, and would certainly be understandable in a long state like PA, ask their outreach program for a referral as they work all over the state.  All medical schools (human and animal) have outreach programs that do reach into rural areas to assist both patients and clients in situations like this.

And if you have any vets that are worth their diploma, vets consult with each other all the time.  I have vets consult with me all the time.  I have had vets text me in the middle of surgery for information.  Challenge your vet....dent that ego that they can't figure out something.  Works wonders if the vet is any kind of doctor at all.  I have no problem at all in consulting with a vet on small domestic mammals (I do most of them) or wildlife.

Now, if their is mucus in the fecal material....it ain't no virus....it's bacterial.  I really think we need to put an end to the concerns about a virus in the gut.  No doubt that studies have shown there might be viral agents present in the gut....but those same studies also show large numbers of pathenogenic bacteria.....Clostridium and sometimes E Coli.....regardless of viral presence.  And if you have a large population of Clostridium or E Coli in any species, that particular individual has a problem.  Even the few studies published also note that the bacterial overgrowth is the most pressing issue.  And any first year medical student knows you can't really treat a virus....only offer support such as fluids.....but you can treat Clostridium or E Coli and if you don't, it has a way of resolving on it's own and it's never good.

I overcome this issue all the time in stressed domestics and in every wild cottontail weaning.  I hydrate by any means necessary to maintain hydration....oral, greens, sub-q, IV, IO....whatever it takes.  I attack the Clostridium.  And as I have mentioned, it is an obligate anaerobe.  Metronidazole (Flagyl) is the preferred treatment.  I also bind the toxins.....currently using BioSponge but have used Questran in the past.  And honestly, it wouldn't hurt to drop a round of Fenbendazole (Panacur) since parasites are most likely present.  And provide a stable and quiet recovery zone.  And stick to a very basic rabbit diet.  Steady the ship.

Time is limited in dealing with these issues.  The longer this issue is allowed to play out, the more likely that gastric ulcers will form and those little lesions can become major players.  I have run things out about a week but even I start getting concerned once we get out that far...and I am more concerned about such a young rabbit.

Randy

 

[murph72]

Randy,

Thanks for the advice. I wrote everything down and I plan to take it to the vet's office with me. You are correct in PA being a long state. Unfortunately I do livequite a distance from PSU, but I will let the vet know that there is an option out there for assistance. At this point I'd rather take the feces for a culture than mess with taking Bentley. I'm dealing with his fluid issuesonmy own, so really allI need is the diagnosis and the meds. I just don't want to stress him out any more than I have to.

Bentley is actually doing much better today than I had expected. I went in this morning and he was eating some of his rolled oats on his own. I waited until he was done nibbling before giving him his Flagyl, pain meds, pedialyte/Benebac, and sub q fluids. His bum was still messy, but he seemed to havea bit more energy than last night and isn't quite so huddled. Hopefully the Flagyl iswhat is making the difference in how he feels. This is the first time I've seen him eat something on his own sinceFriday. and that was just a little bit of hay that I wouldn't consider enough to make a dent.

 

[Maureen Las]

I would guess that the flagyl is what is helping him; actually that is really good news but he is not out of the woods yet.
I don't know if your vet can get questran but it would be in a human pharmacy

scroll down and you will find both flagyl (metronidazole) and also Questran (cholestyramine) in this chart. You put in the rabbits weight and you can get an average dosage.

http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/rx/drugcalc.html




You can get Panacur (fenbendazole)at farm and fleet and /or tractorsupply. The ingredient that you are looking for is fenbendazole. this is a common horse and farm animal dewormer which is why it is sold over the counter in these stores.

Ihave bought liquid Safeguard for goats ( To use on a rabbit)which is really fenbendazole. it comes in a smaller bottle than the Panacur paste in the tube for horses. The liquid Safeguard (fenbendazole)( was in the same mg/ml) as the small amount that the vet gave me and charged a lot for.

Actually fenbendazole and flagyl are on the dose calculator also

 

[murph72]

Whereas this morning was looking good, this afternoon is worse. Full blown diarrhea and he is starting to wimper in pain. I'm not sure how much he and I can take of this. I just gave him his meds again, some more food (which he didn't take as well as earlier today) and some more sub q fluids. If that doesn't help within a few hours I may have to make a decision about how much pain he can withstand and whether this is perhaps a losing battle.

 

[Maureen Las]

If you cannot get to a vet today and he is whimpering ( I assume that you gave the metacam) that is not good...

 

[murph72]

He has stopped whimpering and is now sleeping, so I'm going to wait it out. He was whimpering as I got him out and gave him his drugs and then when I put him back in. I just don't know how far to push him and when it's time to say that enough is enough.

 

[tonyshuman]

ray:

 

[murph72]

His last session of simethicone, sub qfluidsand feeding went better than the last. He seems to have more problems with the late afternoon, but I'm not sure why. I'm hoping tomorrow morning he's at least as good as he is right now. Hopefully I can talk the vet's office into doing the fecal sample without bringing him in. I can weigh him on my scale and I don't want to stress him, so I don't see the point of dragging him in there. I'm not sure what their thoughts will be on that idea, but hopefully they'll be understanding of the delicate situation he's in. Heck, I'd even pay for the examination fee even though they're not really examining him.

Thanks for all your prayers and I'll definitely keep you updated. I already took off tomorrow so I can tend to his needs....hopefully he won't give up on me over the night. ray:

 

[Maureen Las]

:hug:Hope the night goes alright ;Let us know what happens

 

[murph72]

I just looked in on him and he's sitting at his food dish eating. I really wish the morning bunny lasted throughout the day. I'm going to leave him go for a bit longer to let him eat on his own before messing him up with meds. This makes me still a bit hopeful though. I know, I won't get my hopes too high...but they were rather dim after yesterday afternoon.

 

[murph72]

I just got back from the vet's office. They are able to run a parasitic test (which showed cocci, which she said she rated ata 2 on her scale). She sent a sample to PSU to test E coli and clostridium. I had a major run around in there as the person over the phone told me I didn't need my bunny with me to have the test done and get meds, but then the office staff said that wasn't true once I ran all the way in there. Luckily the vet would at least talk to me about what I'm dosing and ran the parasitic test for me. I actually thought I was going to have to leave without learning anything.

She said the flagyl I have would still be good and to continue dosing it. She would not give me a prescription for anything without bringing him in and I truly think that would kill him from the shock. He's presently still eating on his own and I think he shows some promise, so I don't want to lose him to shock.

She sent me to TSC for panacur. They only had the horse version in the tube. I've read the drug isn't evenly distributed, so I am going to empty the tube, mix it well, and then dose it. The dosing calculator came up with 10.5 mg for his weight. I did a conversion to mL since that is what I'm dealing with and came to around .4 mL. However, I don't know how often I should dose this. She told me it would say on the carton, but they're dealing with horses and it seems a bit unclear if I should also do this weekly. Anyone know how often to give Panacur?

I could not get any Biosponge or Questran locally. I'm going to order some online and try to get it rushed here. She said she'd let me know ASAP about the PSU test results. She said I may have to bring him in if one of them tests positive in order to give me a different drug. She didn't think the Flagyl would take care of E. coli or clostridium.

 

[tonyshuman]

That is a good thing to do for the panacur. The calculator I use said to give it once every 24hrs, so I guess that means you need to give it all at once. What's the concentration of the horse Panacur? Depending on how thick it is, you may want to dilute it with pedialyte to make it easier to dose, although that would mean you'd have to give him a pretty large volume.

It's good to know there are some cocci in there so that you have something to treat. The other tests should be helpful as well. I thought that Flagyl was pretty good to combat GI bacteria, particularly clostridium, but you may need a "bigger gun" in this case.

Best of luck~~

 

[Maureen Las]

Safeguard is the same as Panacur except that it comes in a Liquid ; it might be easier


http://www.tractorsupply.com/livestock/livestock-health/livestock-wormers/safeguard-goat-wormer-100-ml-2226898


for ecuniculi it is given everday but i don't know howoften it should be given for this problem ( I don't think it is daily)
the panacur equine dewormer in the tube is 25 gm paste 10%
100mg /gm

I hope that we can find out the dose for the panacur.
Do you have the link to order the biosponge ?


http://www.platinumperformance.com/animal/equine/products/productcategories/product.cfm?category_id=162
4lbs is a lot but still i think that it would be great to have (I should order some also)

You are trying so very hard for him ; I just hope that he makes it so much ...:hug:

 

[tonyshuman]

I found a dog/cat version of biosponge too--it just may take a long time to get there.

http://www.entirelypets.com/platbio15cc.html

I agree that you're doing a really good job for him and without all this work and care he would not be alive today, with a chance of making it through this. It makes me very happy to see someone trying their hardest for their animal and using whatever resources they have.

 

[murph72]

Thank you both for your help. I really do appreciate all the help you've given me.

I did dose him with the stuff right out of the tube after I mixed it to make sure the medicine was as evenly distributed as possible. As gross as it looked, he took the stuff like a champ. I gave him some pedialyte to wash it down, but I think he swallowed all of it before I got any of the liquids into him.

I ordered the biosponge from the place that could actually get it to me the quickest. I bought the horse version that is in a tube and ordered two tubes (just in case). I think I paid more for the rush shipment than I did forthe biosponge.

You are correct in that the panacur I have in the tube is the 10% 100 mg/mL. I've searched online to see how often to give it, but it all seems to relate to horses rather than bunnies. Would it be possible to get ahold of Randy to ask him how often he'd give it and for how many rounds? I hate to bug him, but the vet seemed pretty clueless other than to say, "Yeah, giving him that would be good."

Hopefully PSU won't take forever with the results of the fecal test. I'm also hoping the flagyl does some good without bringing out any "big guns." The little bugger is still nibbling some oats, so I didn't force any CC mixture on him yet today. I'd much rather him eat on his own and I'll keep him hydrated since I haven't witnessed him drinking anything on his own yet.

 

[Maureen Las]

I'll try to get him.......

 

[tonyshuman]

I'm a bit confused because I'm coming up with a dose of 0.105 mL of panacur to get 10.5mg into him.

Here's my calculations
10.5 mg * (1g/1000mg) * (100mL/10g) = 0.105 mL

dose * conversion mg to g * (1/10% 10%= 10g/100mL)

:?