Not eating....need opinions..... Randy?

[murph72]

Unfortunately there has been no great recovery yet. He still is not showing signs of diarrhea, but his poop still has mucous coating it (moreso I think than yesterday) and is soft. I saw him try to eat a peice of hay, but other than that I can't say that he's eating on his own. He is not as cooperative today as he was yesterday. He grinds his teeth and turns his head away when I try to feed him. Since I'm home today I'm going to try to feed him little amounts, but more often to see if that works better.

I did give him a dose of the flagyl this morning because I figured if it would help the lining of the GI tract with inflammation that might be beneficial since he's showing more signs of distress in the mucous increasing. Unfortunately my local vet does not seem willing to do any type of testing on the feces of bunnies. I think it's moreso that they don't really know what they're looking for in bunnies as opposed to cats and dogs.

I'm continuing with the pain meds (when I hear too much teeth grinding...other than when he's just mad at me for trying to force feed him) and the simethicone. How often do you dose the simethicone? I did the .5 every hour for three hours, but when do you start that again? This morning around 8 I gave him a dose, plus some pain meds....but I didn't know how often I really should be giving the simethicone. I don't want to overdo it and have it be the majority of what's in his system.

 

[Maureen Las]

One of the vets gave you the flagyl for your other rabbit? I would guess that you have no idea when this drug expires ? is it a compounded liquid or a tablet ? Is the bunny you are treating the same weight as the bun you lost ?If you are giving simethicone around the clock this is not what we advise. it should only be 3 doses about 1 hr apart at least in an 8- 12 period before the rabbit goes to the vet.


We are not vets ; your rabbit is now grinding his teeth and in pain. ; your rabbit is not any better. We have advised most everything that is possible to do at home ... and there is so much that cannot be done at home

We have library articles on stasis, parasites diarrhea etc; print out some of the aricles and go to the vet.

Metacam cannot be given every few hours ; it is too hard on the kidneys.

You are going to lose this rabbit if you do not get medical care for him ; we have lost several lately with folks who did not get professional care for their rabbits.

We are not veterinarians but assistance until a person can get to a qualified professional



http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11628&forum_id=9


If the vet does not have experience with rabbits Randy (ra7751) is a wild life rehabber and owner of a rabbit rescue who is more knowledgeable than most vets. he has many times offered and talked to vets re. rabbit care.
I will help assist your vet in talking with him if you will get to one.

You are taking too long ..........

This rabbit is very young and young rabbits often fade quickly ; time is of the essence

 

[murph72]

I am very much aware that you are not a vet. Unfortunately there is the expectation that we all have vets within driving distance that are rabbit-savvy. That, unfortunately, is not the case for those of us in very rural areas. My vet has admitted to the lack of knowledge within their facility. To be honest, they told me that most people around here do not even bring rabbits in because they consider them "replaceable pets." Most of our vets around here won't even see "pocket pets" while the others admittedly don't know what they are doing. The one that I go to will prescribe what I want prescribed, but is otherwise pretty dumbfounded by most issues concerning rabbits.

The last rabbit I took to the vet had symptoms similar to this one. The vet prescribed the pain meds and antibiotic based on suggestions I got on here. That was about a month ago. They gave sub q fluids while I was there and did a not so thorough exam. They sent me home with a rabbit that went into shock on the ride home and died shortly thereafter. They didn't want to keep him there and treat him as they thought he was better off being treated at home. They didn't even give him any doses of the drugs while he was there.

The bunny I am treating is almost exactly half the weight of the one the meds were prescribed for, so I halved the dosage. I am not giving the simethicone "around the clock." I give some about every 6 hours or so if I see he's in a hunched position. He does not continually grind his teeth. He seems to be grinding them only when I try to force feed him.

If I take him to the vet it is likely going to be to have him PTS. Taking him there for "treatment" that is not likely to be of help as they don't know what they are doing has been a waste in all my past experiences. They have seen four of my rabbits in the past and three of them died from their issues. The fourth only had an upper respiratory infection, which wasn't exactly life threatening. I think my husband will start shipping my bunnies out if I continue to sink hundreds of dollars in vet care that does not lead to a living rabbit afterward.

 

[Maureen Las]

Randy would be willing to talk to any vet in your area if they would be willing to talk to him.

he talked to a vet of my friend in Chicago a few weeks ago . the vet he talked to was not very rabbit knowledeable

I am trying to reach him now which may be harder to do because it is a weekend.

if yourvets admit not being knowledgeable then they may be more willing to talk to a person who is rabbit knowledgeable.
I understand your dilemana ..believe me I do

but I am very afraid you are going to lose your rabbit...

I am not trying to be harsh ( although I sound that way) ; I am just very worried about a rabbit that young with this issue going on so long

I am not angry with you...

 

[Maureen Las]

Even if Randy posts here you could take his suggestions to the vet

 

[murph72]

I wouldn't be able to go to the vet without a course of action in mind. They really are that clueless. I have been told by a friend that I'm lucky my vet will even take my suggestions. Hers will not even listen to her and just prescribes Baytril for everything. Mine will agree that they do not see many rabbits and therefore have little experience, but it doesn't make me feel any more comfortable giving them a rabbit to diagnose when they don't seem capable of doing so. I've read the posts where people talk about all the tests that are run on their rabbits. At my vets they take temps, feel and listen to the belly, take x-rays, and use a sonogram occassionally...that's pretty much it. I could call over and ask for a test of the feces, but I can't make any promises they know what they're looking for.

 

[Maureen Las]

Randy just contacted methat he is not able to get to a computer at this time.I asked him to take a look at this post when he does. get to one ..


you could ask your vet for a new prescription for Flagyl so that you would have a fresh prescription.
The vet may also need xrays ( to see what is going on in the GI traxt)

This is not typical enterotoxemia as of YET ...but I doubt in my non-professional opinion that the Flagyl would hurt your rabbit.

if it was clearly plain stasis your rabbit would not have soft poops.

since your rabbit is fighting drinkingfluids ask the vet if you can have equipment for SQ fluids ; you cannot use old bags of lactated ringers , or old needles that are opened.
Anyvet can take fecal matter and test for parasites although certainparasitess will not show up except during certain periods in the cycle of theegg. .. and some like tapeworm won't show up at all.

it would be worth it to get the poops tested. anyway
vets can look this info up on the VIN site on the computer exclusive for veterinarians ; I have had vets go back and look up treatments and dosages.
it sounds like your vets are just plain not interested; you may ned to push them a little if you can

 

[murph72]

My "regular bunny vet" if you would like to call them that is no longer in today. I called another that is "willing" to see bunnies. I don't know anyone that has used them, but I thought maybe I'd give it a try. I left a message for their vet, so I'm just waiting to hear back from her. I asked specifically for a fecal test for causes (bacterial, viral, etc). The emergency vet that is not-so-local, but that the vets want to send you to is even more clueless than the local vets, so that's not much of an option. It leads to a $200 bill and clueless looks from the vet that you'd even bother taking a bunny there...oh, and be sure that they'll take all the cats and dogs before your bunny even if they're not as serious. Yes, it is quite frustrating.

angieluv, I understand your worry as it always stresses me out too when they get sick and I feel like I have noone to rely on to get them better than myself. I question constantly that I'm doing the right thing for them, which is why I post on here for second opinions. When I discuss it with my husband he only says, "You're doing the best you can"...which I know he means to be comforting, but I wish he could offer some advice.

 

[murph72]

It looks as though we were posting simultaneously.

I'm crossing my fingers this vet can do some type of testing for me. If so, I'm definitely switching vets. Yes, I agree the local vets really don't want to be bothered.

I don't think it's stasis either. I'm just so baffled on what has caused it. I have a hard time thinking parasites because I have so many buns and in particular one that was living with this one and nothing is affecting them. Plus, it happened with the change in temperature as Pam noticed. If is is viral, wouldn't I see diarrhea though? Or do the articles on viruses only discuss diarrhea because it will eventually happen, but hasn't yet in thiscase?

 

[Maureen Las]

I understand.....for now try to see another vet, get the gut checked out (x-rays), get the fecal matter checked out , ask for flagyl and keep doing the same treatment that you are doing at home. (ask for subq fluid equipment).
You may be surprised that the new vet know more.

Iwill try to post from my shelter but I have to go there this afternoon.

Good luck and keep trying ... and hopefully Randy may have a few suggestion when he is able to post..

 

[Maureen Las]

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=28622&forum_id=10

http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=39593&forum_id=10


http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11895&forum_id=10

 

[murph72]

I actually do have the sub q equipment here as the regular vet gave it to me for the bunny that didn't make it on the trip home last time. I didn't use it yet as he was still taking syringe feedings for me, but I could add it if you think it won't stress him out too much and would be helpful.

I just fed him again and I'm amazed by the quantity of poo he is leaving. I don't like it's softness or the mucus, but there definitely is not a stoppage of the system. It seems like every time I mess with him he poops.

 

[Maureen Las]

You did put a new bun in with this one right???
the new bun could be an asymptomatic carrier of something ;

if i am incorrect then forgive me ; I may be getting posts mixed up

i need to go to the shelter but will check this there if possible

 

[Maureen Las]

should have the fecal tests run...
could be coccidia

 

[murph72]

I put a new bun in with this bun and his siblings when they were about 7 weeks and the new bun was 8 weeks (the new bun wasn't adjusting well to being alone and liked the company). They've been together for two weeks now and the other buns (who are now in new homes) are all OK. The new bun was also living with his siblings at my friend's and none of her bunnies have this issue either. I'm really leaning towards the change in the temperature here as the thing that pushed him over the edge, I'm just not sure why.

 

[murph72]

Well, no news is not good news. The vet's office called to tell me they didn't have time to see him today and wanted me to take him to the same ER that doesn't deal with rabbits. I'm once again on my own. Outlook not so good.

 

[Maureen Las]

In addition to Flagyl the drug Questran (cholestyramine) can be effectively used to bind toxins in rabbits producing clostridium in their GI tracts.

http://homepage.mac.com/mattocks/morfz/questran.html

Idon't know how easy it is for vets to have this but it could be obtained from a human pharmacy by precription as it is used to lower cholestorolin people.

Randy uses the biosponge and that can be ordered over the internet but won't help you now....
ready to leave but still have my mind on this....

Ithinkthis is probably a severe gut floraimbalance in a young bun...

maybe a parasitic infection ...not sure

 

[tonyshuman]

Randy says that when questran is used, the rabbit must be very well hydrated. In that case I'd recommend doing sub-q's if you are going to do that. I think it might be fine to start doing sub-q's for him anyway. I am a bit confused--you say he's pooping--what kind of poop? solid? mucousy? diarrhea?

I think at this point he should be getting force fed and force watered, along with simethicone.

I thought that you were able to repeat the simethicone doses 3hrs after the last one. Some belly rubs may help too.

I also don't think the Flagyl is going to hurt, although if it is very old it may not be good to use.

 

[murph72]

I have been force feeding and force watering. I even did some sub q fluid this afternoon. Unfortunately the poop went from mucousy and soft (not excessively mucousy, but enough to know there was issues in the intestines), to looking more like diarrhea this afternoon.

From what I've read, the Flagyl will just get sugary if it is too old. I'm not sure at this point it will do any harm, so I'm going to keep giving it twice a day as recommended on the label.

He puts up with the belly rubs, but I can't tell if he enjoys them per say. I've been doing them almost every time I have him out.

I just gave him some more simethicone and about 6 mL of the CC, pedialyte, benbac mixture. He doesn't have unformed diarrhea that is explosive as I've seen described in the articles I've read. Nor is it watery or off-color in any way. It's the same dark brown, but it's more runny now than it was before. The circular shapes I was seeing before are gone and it's replaced by more of a solid mass of brown poo thathe's passing.

I'll see tomorrow if he's gotten any worse. I don't want him to suffer any more than is necessary if it is a lost cause. If it looks like it might be by tomorrow I think I'll have him PTS.

 

[tonyshuman]

Ok, good luck. I'll be hoping that he can get through this. I think you've probably got the best treatment available, unless the vet can get you in sometime.