My rabbits are pooing under my couch

[Kaz1983]

Firstly I've got two rabbits now but previously just had the one rabbit. So yes apart from this issue they are both toilet trained and fyi they have been bonded together about 6-8 weeks ago.

I keep them both in about 4 square meters of space whilst they learnt were the litter box is and how to regularly use it, that worked well and then I went from a 4 square meters of space, straight to the lounge and kitchen combined - probably about 25 square meters of space, was 4 square meters to 25 square meters to big of a jump? I don't think so, because minus that spot under the couch, they both use the litter box perfectly fine. Anyways now the issue I have is, both are pooing mostly in the litter box but are doing the odd soft type poo under my couch [on a regular basis] and sometimes under my television cabinet. This is really annoying me, it was happening before when I just had my first rabbit but with two rabbit using that spot for soft type poo. I'm kinda about to give up hope that this might not happen in the future...

Well with 2 rabbits I notice the poo more and would really prefer they wouldn't use that spot for soft poo - I mean, if it was just sometimes that would be alright but it's on a regular basis! I love both them rabbits and I really don't like the idea of putting into a cage. I don't wanna do that but I'm worried that if they keep pooing soft ones under couch, my wife might want to buy a cage and keep them in there every night. I mean, I really hope not but this can't go on forever and I'm not sure what to do? I mean surely there is a way to train them to not to poo under my couch, any ideas what I can to get the to stop this? Anybody got any ideas of what I can do to stop them doing this? I tried vinegar but all the did was mean their soft poos were under the cabinet with tv instead, IMHO I need the advice from some other rabbit owners. Any advice?

 

[JBun]

I would suspect they like to chill or spend time under there? If it's a low space, then the problem could be that they can't sit up to reach down properly to consume them, when the cecotropes are coming out, so they get left uneaten. Really the only option to stop this is block access to underneath those places with wire grid panels or some sort of wooden frame structure to block the crawl space. Otherwise it will just keep happening.

https://bunnyproof.com/stop-bunny-going-under-furniture.html
Or, if they do have space to sit up and reach down to their bum to eat the cecotropes when it's time to eat them, then it's possible that they aren't consuming them like they normally should because of too rich of a diet and not enough fiber. If you think this might be the cause, if you want to give a detailed list of what their exact diet is, we might be able to give you some suggestions on changes to make so this stops.

A few other possible causes to consider for uneaten cecotropes are dental issues, obesity, and arthritis, which can make it difficult or uncomfortable for a rabbit to bend down or consume their cecals, so they leave them uneaten.

https://rabbit.org/disorders-of-the-cecum/

 

[Kaz1983]

I would suspect they like to chill or spend time under there? If it's a low space, then the problem could be that they can't sit up to reach down properly to consume them, when the cecotropes are coming out, so they get left uneaten. Really the only option to stop this is block access to underneath those places with wire grid panels or some sort of wooden frame structure to block the crawl space. Otherwise it will just keep happening.

https://bunnyproof.com/stop-bunny-going-under-furniture.html
Or, if they do have space to sit up and reach down to their bum to eat the cecotropes when it's time to eat them, then it's possible that they aren't consuming them like they normally should because of too rich of a diet and not enough fiber. If you think this might be the cause, if you want to give a detailed list of what their exact diet is, we might be able to give you some suggestions on changes to make so this stops.

A few other possible causes to consider for uneaten cecotropes are dental issues, obesity, and arthritis, which can make it difficult or uncomfortable for a rabbit to bend down or consume their cecals, so they leave them uneaten.

https://rabbit.org/disorders-of-the-cecum/

So it is a case of just blocking of all access to underneath the couch and if that doesn't making they are eating a healthy, balanced diet, cos I worried it might have already turned a habit that need re-training to get outta their system. It's good to understand that not consuming their cecotropes that are depriving themselves of doing something that's good for, so there must be a reason and it's recorrected, they both should eat them just fine - cos like I said, it's in their best interests.

Cheers for the advice.

 

[Kaz1983]

I would suspect they like to chill or spend time under there? If it's a low space, then the problem could be that they can't sit up to reach down properly to consume them, when the cecotropes are coming out, so they get left uneaten. Really the only option to stop this is block access to underneath those places with wire grid panels or some sort of wooden frame structure to block the crawl space. Otherwise it will just keep happening.

https://bunnyproof.com/stop-bunny-going-under-furniture.html
Or, if they do have space to sit up and reach down to their bum to eat the cecotropes when it's time to eat them, then it's possible that they aren't consuming them like they normally should because of too rich of a diet and not enough fiber. If you think this might be the cause, if you want to give a detailed list of what their exact diet is, we might be able to give you some suggestions on changes to make so this stops.

A few other possible causes to consider for uneaten cecotropes are dental issues, obesity, and arthritis, which can make it difficult or uncomfortable for a rabbit to bend down or consume their cecals, so they leave them uneaten.

https://rabbit.org/disorders-of-the-cecum/

Ok JBun I need your advice,

I covered the whole area under my couch with vinegar for 1 hour, then cleaned up the vinegar, t put some scented cleaner that's rabbit friendly - it was a BIG success as there was zero poos the next day (where left are that area) - hBUT both rabbits just pooed on the other side of the room instead unfortunately , this was very, very disappointing!!!!!

I'm really not sure what to do? Like you said before, maybe it's their diet? I took a photo of mixture of rabbit I give them, I hope that helps. We give them probably 1 to 2 cups max each every 24 hours.

I dunno it's hard to explain the importance of planning a healthy diet for rabbit to my wife... see if I honest, she likes spoiling them extra grain and/or sweets like granola - look I don't do that and realize it's bad for them, but when I'm not around my does that - I think she loves the attention both rabbits give her when they she her with sweets and/or. extra grain.....then me telling her not do feed them granola and/or extra grains (a cup here and cup there...) see I understand 80% of a rabbits diet and mine don't get nearly enough hay. Personally I think both rabbit just don't to both eating hay really, I mean they both do eat hay but not nearly enough.. my old rabbit isn't overweight, maybe chubby side but deffo not fat or anything - in a few years he might be tho, well if he continues on this poor diet, maybe 30% of their diet is hay? I know they should be eat close to 80% of their diet should be hay.

Do you think I should force them to eat alot more hay, but just giving less rabbit mix? The only thing is the rabbit might noot be used eating hay and therefore not eat any foods? Or are they just acting all hungry to eat extra food? Like a fat person eating fast food, of course they will be hungry if they are eating less food than they usually eat, they are eating way too much food anyways.

Is their diet the cause of them not eating their cecotropes?

 

[Preitler]

Well, you already know it, now you need to do something about it. THIS is not proper rabbit food at all, even if the label or friendly employee at the pet shop says so. It might be used to get meat rabbits to butcher weight asap when there are no long term health concerns, but even for that purpose it's not ideal because the rabbits would rather get fat than big which is pretty useless.

Whole grain kernels have the potential to do long term harm to their teeth, like stimulating the roots to overgrow and causing havoc, and it's practically just empty calories. That very well can be and quite likely is the reason for excess cecotropes.

So, I would start to switch them over to good, hay based pellets. Ofer lots of hay. If you have access to grass and weeeds you could introduce those long term, but one step after the other, and do every change gradually over a week. Rabbits didn't become a Problem in Australia because they raid grain fields but because they evolved to thrive on a very meager diet. And I would throw anything out that isn't rabbit food to not tempt anyone.

A good read about feeding pet rabbits:
https://www.harcourt-brown.co.uk/articles/free-food-for-rabbits
If they insist to use that new spot to poop, a second litterbox there would be the easy solution. Or taking a critical look at their current litter box setup if there is anything that makes it kinda unpractical to use all the time.

 

[JBun]

Uh, yes. That is most likely the problem. Muesli is a horrible diet for a rabbit. It's chock full of carbs, and is basically junk food. Plus a study done showed that rabbits on a muesli diet were more likely to develop dental issues. Also feeding granola, is just more carbs and sugars.

Rabbits need a primarily vegetation based diet, like free fed(unlimited) grass hay, to help prevent digestive issues and promote tooth wear to prevent tooth overgrowth. Too much protein or carbs in the diet and not enough plant fiber, can cause excess and/or uneaten cecals. Plus too many carbs can cause digestive issues. It's your choice, if you want to keep feeding this diet, but the cecotrope problem won't stop unless you change their diet to a primarily hay based one.

If you decide you want to get this cecotrope issue cleared up, more hay consumption is essential. Also, switching to a plain good quality grass based pellet like Oxbow adult, would be preferable as well. But I would start with the hay first.

What type of hay do you feed, what cut is it(soft leafy, mix of leaf and stem, mostly hard stems), and is it a good green quality or sunbleached? Can you tell if both rabbits eat it or just one? If you reduce the muesli amount so they run out 3-4 hours before the next feeding, you should be able to tell if either or both start eating hay as they're waiting for the next muesli feeding. It's important to determine if both rabbits will eat their hay if the other food runs out, before reducing the muesli amount any further, or too long without eating could cause GI stasis to set in. If they won't eat the hay even with reduced muesli, it could mean they won't eat hay because they've developed a dental issue.

 

[Kaz1983]

Uh, yes. That is most likely the problem. Muesli is a horrible diet for a rabbit. It's chock full of carbs, and is basically junk food. Plus a study done showed that rabbits on a muesli diet were more likely to develop dental issues. Also feeding granola, is just more carbs and sugars.

Rabbits need a primarily vegetation based diet, like free fed(unlimited) grass hay, to help prevent digestive issues and promote tooth wear to prevent tooth overgrowth. Too much protein or carbs in the diet and not enough plant fiber, can cause excess and/or uneaten cecals. Plus too many carbs can cause digestive issues. It's your choice, if you want to keep feeding this diet, but the cecotrope problem won't stop unless you change their diet to a primarily hay based one.

As for the feed, they must be re-labeled or something cos I brought it from the pet shop, not some backyard breeder or something. I just didn't realize a un-balanced diet will cause such negative effects that guys have pointed out. But yeah, this is exactly, why I asked because I knew there was an issue but honestly thought it might be something else. No need be overly judgemental, I wasn't aware just how poor their diet is but knew that they weren't eating a diet that wasn't healthy, now I do understand just how important a healthy, balanced diet is... rabbit sanctuaries here in my city don't give you this sort of information, I should know as my second rabbit was adopted from them. When I asked them they just said that they need to be eating a lot more hay -which I knew already and that eating fresh vegetables is important but seeing the primary food the eat is the rabbit mix. But yes, they need to eat more hay and not just any hay, but good quality hay.

If you decide you want to get this cecotrope issue cleared up, more hay consumption is essential. Also, switching to a plain good quality grass based pellet like Oxbow adult, would be preferable as well. But I would start with the hay first.

Now that you both have made me aware, it would be irresponsible to continue feeding them this diet that isn't rabbit friendly.

What type of hay do you feed, what cut is it(soft leafy, mix of leaf and stem, mostly hard stems), and is it a good green quality or sunbleached? Can you tell if both rabbits eat it or just one?

Both rabbits but one definitely more than the other, as for the type of hay it's oat hay but mostly stem and sunbleached. But yeah one prefers hay and vegetables more than the other. I mean we don't just feed the rabbits just the rabbit mix that was recommended to me at the pet store that is close to me, like I have said not being told correct information has lead to seem like some irresponsible pet owner and get that, but that really isn't the case. But yes, I appreciate the information.

 

[Kaz1983]

Well, you already know it, now you need to do something about it.

Yes.

 

[JBun]

Muesli used to be widely accepted as a common rabbit feed for quick weight gain in commercial rabbit raising, as Preitler pointed out. But it's slowly fallen out of favor as an acceptable rabbit feed due to the nutrient and dental problems that can be caused by feeding it. It's acceptability moved to the pet industry decades ago, and even though pet stores should know better now, they still sell crap for rabbits because new owners often don't realize that it's really not good, and it sells because it looks good to the owner.

It's a marketing thing. Same with the crap for treats that they sell as well, like yogurt drops. Sure rabbits like those things, they have an enormous sweet tooth. Like a kid, they would eat junk all day if you let them, but it's not good for them and can lead to health problems. So it's not surprising that you were able to find that at a pet store.

I'm not judging you at all. Sorry if it came across that way. It tend to be overly direct when responding to things. I'm more than glad to help owners figure out and correct diet problems causing health issues with their rabbits. If anything, I blame the pet store. I just get tired of pet owners being misled into feeding this kind of thing because someone wants to make money off of them. The sanctuary though, they really should be providing new owners with a detailed print out on the correct diet and other care info, to be sent home with the owners and their new rabbit.

Rabbits are a pretty misunderstood pet, and generally sensitive to needing a balanced diet to avoid certain health issues that they're prone to. There are some rabbits that you can feed just about anything, and it will never cause a problem, but that has been the exception in my experience. The majority of rabbits will encounter some sort of health issue if they don't have the right balance in their diet.

I'm glad you're willing to make the necessary changes. Not all owners are willing. This doesn't mean your rabbits won't be able to have any treats, just that high carb/sugary treats need to be limited. A little bit of fruit makes a great healthy treat. Some rabbits see their daily greens/veggies as tasty treats. My rabbits go nuts over apple branches with leaves. So you can still enjoy your rabbits getting all excited for something yummy. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised that when you change their diet, they'll get even more excited than before, for their treat.

With you feeding a hay that's more sunbleached, that means you'll probably need to feed a higher amount of pellets than is typically recommended, so your rabbits are getting the right balance of nutrients. Though if you at some point, get a greener hay with a mix of leaf and stem, then you could reduce the pellet amount. You're aiming for a balance of nutrient rich green leafy parts, and indigestible fiber for good gut motility from the hard stems. If the hay is mostly hard stems and sun bleached, then there isn't enough nutrients for a rabbit to maintain a healthy weight, so more pellets need to be fed to make up for that. I did a pretty detailed description of hay balance in this thread recently, if you want to take a look. It's a pretty lengthy thread though.

https://www.rabbitsonline.net/threads/first-time-bunny-owner-any-help-appreciated.102492/
Like I mentioned above, you can start with a small reduction in muesli to see if it causes your other rabbit to start eating more hay. If not, then I would suggest keeping the muesli at the same amount you usually feed and getting the new pellet and making a gradual transition to it first before reducing pellet amounts. The transition to pellets should be over at least 2 weeks time, but starting with adding a small amount of the new pellet, and removing the same amount of the muesli. Then if your rabbits seem to be eating the new pellet, every day or two, gradually increase the new pellet and decrease the muesli. So at the end of 2 weeks they are completely on the new pellet.

Now, if they aren't taking to the new pellet, which often happens when trying to take a rabbit off of a tastier food, then the pellet transition may take a bit more time before they decide they're hungry enough to try the new pellet. Though of course they will always have their hay to eat, so will never go completely hungry. And if you're having any issues with the changes, please feel free to ask questions on here.

Once they're switched to the new pellet, you can gradually start decreasing the amount. You want to closely monitor your rabbits hay consumption as you do this. If they're both eating hay really well as you reduce pellets, then I would get to an amount where they're both eating a pile of hay the size of their body per day. That may be about 1/4-1/2 cup pellets per day for each rabbit, depending on your rabbits body sizes. If you end up getting a greener leafier hay that's a mix of leaf and stem, then pellets could be reduced even more, to about 1/8-1/4 cup per day each rabbit. Then just monitor body condition to make sure they stay at a healthy weight with this new diet.

If your one rabbit still won't eat hay as you start to reduce pellet amounts, I would suggest trying a different grass hay. Some rabbits are just picky about the hay they eat. If your rabbit still won't eat hay, then you may need to take your rabbit for a vet check. Rabbits molars can develop sharp points because of improper tooth wear, which is something that can especially happen being fed muesli. And the sharp points cause mouth sores, which can affect what a rabbit will eat, because it hurts for them to chew certain food. So lack of hay eating can sometimes be due to this problem, and if so then the vet will need to file the sharp points down under sedation.

http://rabbitvet.net/AustralianRabbitVets.htm
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/dental.html
Medirabbit: dental malocclusion

If you want to take a look at these links below. They have some good info on what is a good balance for a pet rabbits diet. Amounts for the veggies and pellets based on body weight, will vary with each site. Hay is the most important factor that I've found. And exact diet is also going to vary depending on each individual rabbits needs. So I always go off of how their poop is looking, their urine, body weight, and any reoccurring health issues that could indicate a problem. So I monitor these things regularly with my own rabbits, as it's the best indicator something might be off balance and need correcting.

https://rabbitsindoors.weebly.com/feeding.html
https://bunnylady.com/rabbit-diet/
https://bunssb.org/bunnies/guide-bunny-poops/
https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Urine
https://www.pfma.org.uk/_assets/weigh-in-wednesday/pet-size-o-meter-rabbit.pdf

 

[Kaz1983]

If you decide you want to get this cecotrope issue cleared up, more hay consumption is essential. Also, switching to a plain good quality grass based pellet like Oxbow adult, would be preferable as well. But I would start with the hay first.

I really want to switch to the right type that suit my rabbit, seeing as though you guys of explain to me how doing that will benefit buy rabbits health and is definitely the right thing to do. I've been looking at some different quality pallets for like Oxbow etc etc, just so I've got a good idea of the price that switch pallets, getting the right type of quality hay for them.

See I'm definitely not weighing up whether my rabbits health is worth spending extra on the right pallets etc etc - no I'm just on a budget, unfortunately - there was some good quality pellets (ORIGINS), they were 1.5 kilos for $18, not sure how you guys get your pellets or what type you use but I want to try to stick within my budget unfortunately.

I know I sound thinking about my finances over the health of my rabbit but unfortunately I've just got to take this into consideration. I'm still willing to spend extra if it is needed but I really would like to try to avoid that - I hope you understand what I mean. I understand brands like Oxbow would deffo be preferable - I get that.

I'm not sure how find some good quality pallets within a certain range?

 

[Kaz1983]

How long does 2.25 kgs of the Oxbow pellets last a rabbit? It's a Dwarf lop kinda rabbit, 2 kgs roughly.

 

[Kaz1983]

Little help

Any idea about the above? Sorry for reminding you but just you be busy being, an amdin on here -well its probably easy to forbet stuff.

 

[JBun]

It depends on how much you have to feed per day and if your rabbits are eating a bunch of hay too. If you're feeding a cup a day, it's about 6 oz. of feed(for the oxbow), so calculate from there on how many oz/kg your rabbits would need per month. I buy the 25lb bags for my rabbits and going through 8 oz a day lasts about a month and a half.

You don't need oxbow. Any rabbit feed with grass hay as the first ingredient(and not a grain by product), and preferably no added corn is what you want.

 

[John Wick]

The number of pellet options is indeed overwhelming, but as JBun mentions, you don't need Oxbow-- there are plenty of other options that will work just fine. Pellets also keep for a while as long as they are stored properly, so if you end up purchasing "too much", it'll still be usable barring exposure to excess humidity. Worst case scenario, you can donate any surplus to a local rescue for immediate use and then adjust your purchase quantity next time.

Unsure how up to date this list is, but someone compared several rabbit pellet brands (may not be as applicable for you in Australia): Rabbit Food Comparision - Brand, Type, Nutritional Analysis ... as you can see, multiple brands cover what is needed, and Oxbow isn't actually considered "ideal" based on this person's criteria. That being said, obviously many rabbits do fine on Oxbow, so there is room for forgiveness-- you don't need to be perfect. I echo JBun in that any rabbit feed with grass hay as the first ingredient and doesn't have added corn or bits and bobs tend to be fine.

 

[Kaz1983]

Okay, I separated both rabbits last night and my oldest rabbit Alex who is like 4 years old, which was more suitable pellets and not a muesli type so called rabbit mix - I just didn't bad that mix was for rabbits. Anyways neither rabbit made any mess, so that was kinda pointless but Alex never had any of the muesli type mix and he was the rabbit who keep in usual spot they hang out and has their litter box, the other rabbit named Pancake was keep in the bathroom overnight. So neither made any mess overnight, but maybe I should temporally limit both of their's space?

From 8.30pm last night to 8am this morning, but neither left any mess overnight - the irony but maybe it points out that they are making mess only when together, I dunno what to think now? Any ideas? I suppose I was hope it was just one rabbit, or both. I'm starting to think I need to re-train them on the right diet, so enclose both around their litter tray and slowly every few days. They will learn to manage the space and not get to lazy, hanging out under the couch and using it as a spot to do their mess. I think that's what is happening... but they really need to be on the correct diet first.

 

[Kaz1983]

https://veterinarypartner.vin.com/default.aspx?pid=19239&id=4952892
Could this be the cause?

 

[Sweet Potato rabbit]

How long does 2.25 kgs of the Oxbow pellets last a rabbit? It's a Dwarf lop kinda rabbit, 2 kgs roughly.

Mine’s a netherland dwarf, 1.1kg. The 2.25kg pack of Oxbow pellets will last me 5-6 months. Usually I go with maximum of 1.5tbsp (15g) a day which means 5 months, but there are also days I’d give lesser because I gave a treat or if I’m pushing him to eat more hay.

 

[JBun]

https://veterinarypartner.vin.com/default.aspx?pid=19239&id=4952892
Could this be the cause?

Yes, that's basically what I was describing above(though not specifically by name), and why the diet change was needed to fix it. It's called cecal dysbiosis(or ISC, ISS) when too many carbs is causing the cecotropes to not form properly causing mushy cecals, and they get left uneaten.

https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/cecal-dysbiosis-in-house-rabbits-what-the-hay/
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/poop.html
With them not leaving any overnight, though cecals are often expelled(and usually eaten) during the night, it's not always the case for every rabbit. When cecotropes come out, depends on each rabbits routine and schedule. So sometimes they will only be expelled and eaten during the daytime. It's not unexpected for them to not produce any at night.

If you weren't to allow them to go under any furniture during the day and they then didn't leave any cecals laying around then like they didn't at night, then it might not just be a diet thing, but being under furniture that is resulting in them not bothering to eat them like normal. Though a diet change is still advisable, and may still correct the problem even if it is them not bothering to eat them because of laziness.

 

[Kaz1983]

Yes, that's basically what I was describing above(though not specifically by name), and why the diet change was needed to fix it. It's called cecal dysbiosis(or ISC, ISS) when too many carbs is causing the cecotropes to not form properly causing mushy cecals, and they get left uneaten.

https://www.mspca.org/angell_services/cecal-dysbiosis-in-house-rabbits-what-the-hay/
http://www.bio.miami.edu/hare/poop.html
With them not leaving any overnight, though cecals are often expelled(and usually eaten) during the night, it's not always the case for every rabbit. When cecotropes come out, depends on each rabbits routine and schedule. So sometimes they will only be expelled and eaten during the daytime. It's not unexpected for them to not produce any at night.

If you weren't to allow them to go under any furniture during the day and they then didn't leave any cecals laying around then like they didn't at night, then it might not just be a diet thing, but being under furniture that is resulting in them not bothering to eat them like normal. Though a diet change is still advisable, and may still correct the problem even if it is them not bothering to eat them because of laziness.

Okay after feeding my rabbit purely straw diet, she is only pooing hard balls - so the poo is back to normal, which is great!

So yeah that's to everybody that gave any advice above, thanks a lot!!!

The thing is tho, she is pooing these hard balls everywhere - she seems to have lost all toilet train skills, before she was using the litter tray perfectly fine but now just seems to be pooing on the floor at random - not all in just one spot or anything.. I'm not sure what to do? I mean it's easier to clean up than the soft, sticky poo that was left on the floor but doing these hard ball like poos scattered on the living room floor - It's still far, far, far from ideal.

I'm thinking re-train her to use the litter tray? Should I do that?

 

[JBun]

Have any changes occurred in her environment(new people, new animals, new area, things changed around, new smells, new sounds, etc), including outdoor sounds or possibly predators hanging around? Changes in a rabbits environment can spark new territorial marking with their poop. Or is her diet the only thing that's changed.

If you aren't also feeding pellets, I would recommend getting her back on some pellets. Pure straw is completely devoid of nutrients and can lead to impaction of the rabbits cecum. This is because straw is almost completely indigestible fiber with no nutrients to enter the cecum. Thus the cecum stalls with limited nutrients to keep the cecotropes moving through and leading to a back up and impaction.

You either need a balance of leafy hay with the straw, to provide the needed nutrients for the cecum to continue to function properly and also so your rabbit doesn't lose weight, or you need to start feeding some pellets again. Remember, it's all about the right balance. Not too much indigestible fiber(straw) and not too much rich food to cause excess cecals.