My clown loach

[Sweetie]

Ok then I will wait until Saturday to dose with the cure-ick, that is if she still has it after she gets better from the fungus infection.

I greatly appreciate your advice NickZac and everyone else's too.

Watermelons: you are right. My sick clown loach has ick and a fungal infection.

Well I hope that my sick clown loach gets better!

 

[fuzz16]

i dont think anyone mentioned this...but you CANNOT medicate a tank with the loaches in it because they dont have scales, the meds wont help them, but make them worse. and youd be medicating a tank of possibly perfectly fine fish and destroying their immune system.
and if you medicate you also need to remove any carbon your running, if you are, which most people generally dont need it.

if your fish has ich, you need to find out why. it can lay dorment for months. raise the temp and do water changes, make sure to vac to gravel.

and one dot doesnt sound like ich, if she had fin rot then there may be white spots that are scarring on the finnage from growing back.

 

[NickZac]

fuzz16 wrote:

i dont think anyone mentioned this...but you CANNOT medicate a tank with the loaches in it because they dont have scales, the meds wont help them, but make them worse. and youd be medicating a tank of possibly perfectly fine fish and destroying their immune system.
and if you medicate you also need to remove any carbon your running, if you are, which most people generally dont need it.

if your fish has ich, you need to find out why. it can lay dorment for months. raise the temp and do water changes, make sure to vac to gravel.

and one dot doesnt sound like ich, if she had fin rot then there may be white spots that are scarring on the finnage from growing back.

You CAN medicate any fish including loaches. Loaches are among the most sensitive of freshwater fish, however, they can successfully be treated. While formalin will cook them alive (literally burn their skin off), dylox 80 will literally decompose them alive, and malachite green and acraflavine can easily harm them, other medications are completely loach safe. Furthermore, if a loach is sick and you don't treat them, they usually die. When breeding we used a protocol of only two options for dealing with sick fish: treat or euthanize. We did this because many of the diseases (including ich) can literally suffocate the fish to death, which, unquestionably causes suffering. Our treatment protocol saved well over 90% of our sick fish and we rarely euthanized them because we were quick to notice, quick to accurately diagnose, quick to begin the most effective treatment, and quick to change the treatment if need be.

Quinine sulfate is the MOST effective ich medication for both freshwater and saltwater strains, including formalin-resistant ones. It is also the quickest acting and the safest. It is fine for loaches. It really does not stress them out at all. It is a go-to drug for loach breeders among others. Other medications such as prazi, griseo, and numerous antibacterials are also safe. The newer medications are not only safer but far more effective than the drugs of 10 years ago or so. While any chemical that goes into water will put some strain on the fish, the medications I mentioned are minimal in their harm, as is there negative effect on nitrifying bacteria. However, the mainstream 'big box' stores are yet to catch up to 2011 and are still selling fish medication from the 1970s such as tetracycline, formalin, malachite green, sodium-xxxxx, etc...and so..to be blunt, they carry medications which are highly toxic (and can harm people when they handle them!!), do a poor job at curing sick fish, and do an excellent job at killing both sick and healthy fish.

 

[Sweetie]

fuzz16 wrote:

i dont think anyone mentioned this...but you CANNOT medicate a tank with the loaches in it because they dont have scales, the meds wont help them, but make them worse. and youd be medicating a tank of possibly perfectly fine fish and destroying their immune system.
and if you medicate you also need to remove any carbon your running, if you are, which most people generally dont need it.

if your fish has ich, you need to find out why. it can lay dorment for months. raise the temp and do water changes, make sure to vac to gravel.

and one dot doesnt sound like ich, if she had fin rot then there may be white spots that are scarring on the finnage from growing back.

FYI fuzz16: I always treat my fish at the first sign of an illness because if it does progress the clown loach WILL die. I had 5 clown loaches at one time in the 55 gallon fishtank. One died because something caused him to get really skinny, he was fed every day. Another died because he/she got sick and I didn't catch it in time. Clown loaches are very sensitive to illnesses, so me treat my clown loach early in the illness is going to save her. She is my biggest one at 7 inches, had her for about 5 years. Inow have three clownloaches. I am not risking losing my clown loach that is sick. Also I believe that when I dose the tank with medicine to treat a sick fish, the healthy fishes immune system gets stronger. My 4 inch clown loach has not been sick since I got her. I love my clown loaches!

 

[Sweetie]

NickZac wrote:

fuzz16 wrote:

i dont think anyone mentioned this...but you CANNOT medicate a tank with the loaches in it because they dont have scales, the meds wont help them, but make them worse. and youd be medicating a tank of possibly perfectly fine fish and destroying their immune system.
and if you medicate you also need to remove any carbon your running, if you are, which most people generally dont need it.

if your fish has ich, you need to find out why. it can lay dorment for months. raise the temp and do water changes, make sure to vac to gravel.

and one dot doesnt sound like ich, if she had fin rot then there may be white spots that are scarring on the finnage from growing back.

You CAN medicate any fish including loaches. Loaches are among the most sensitive of freshwater fish, however, they can successfully be treated. While formalin will cook them alive (literally burn their skin off), dylox 80 will literally decompose them alive, and malachite green and acraflavine can easily harm them, other medications are completely loach safe. Furthermore, if a loach is sick and you don't treat them, they usually die. When breeding we used a protocol of only two options for dealing with sick fish: treat or euthanize. We did this because many of the diseases (including ich) can literally suffocate the fish to death, which, unquestionably causes suffering. Our treatment protocol saved well over 90% of our sick fish and we rarely euthanized them because we were quick to notice, quick to accurately diagnose, quick to begin the most effective treatment, and quick to change the treatment if need be.

Quinine sulfate is the MOST effective ich medication for both freshwater and saltwater strains, including formalin-resistant ones. It is also the quickest acting and the safest. It is fine for loaches. It really does not stress them out at all. It is a go-to drug for loach breeders among others. Other medications such as prazi, griseo, and numerous antibacterials are also safe. The newer medications are not only safer but far more effective than the drugs of 10 years ago or so. While any chemical that goes into water will put some strain on the fish, the medications I mentioned are minimal in their harm, as is there negative effect on nitrifying bacteria. However, the mainstream 'big box' stores are yet to catch up to 2011 and are still selling fish medication from the 1970s such as tetracycline, formalin, malachite green, sodium-xxxxx, etc...and so..to be blunt, they carry medications which are highly toxic (and can harm people when they handle them!!), do a poor job at curing sick fish, and do an excellent job at killing both sick and healthy fish.

Thank you NickZac for correcting fuzz16 about clown loaches.

I will see about getting the quinine sulfate for my clown loaches. Will it harm the goldfish, and plecostamus'? Also is it safe for bettas?

 

[Nancy McClelland]

ray:

 

[Sweetie]

Nancy McClelland wrote:

ray:

Thank you!

 

[NickZac]

Sweetie wrote:

NickZac wrote:

fuzz16 wrote:

i dont think anyone mentioned this...but you CANNOT medicate a tank with the loaches in it because they dont have scales, the meds wont help them, but make them worse. and youd be medicating a tank of possibly perfectly fine fish and destroying their immune system.
and if you medicate you also need to remove any carbon your running, if you are, which most people generally dont need it.

if your fish has ich, you need to find out why. it can lay dorment for months. raise the temp and do water changes, make sure to vac to gravel.

and one dot doesnt sound like ich, if she had fin rot then there may be white spots that are scarring on the finnage from growing back.

You CAN medicate any fish including loaches. Loaches are among the most sensitive of freshwater fish, however, they can successfully be treated. While formalin will cook them alive (literally burn their skin off), dylox 80 will literally decompose them alive, and malachite green and acraflavine can easily harm them, other medications are completely loach safe. Furthermore, if a loach is sick and you don't treat them, they usually die. When breeding we used a protocol of only two options for dealing with sick fish: treat or euthanize. We did this because many of the diseases (including ich) can literally suffocate the fish to death, which, unquestionably causes suffering. Our treatment protocol saved well over 90% of our sick fish and we rarely euthanized them because we were quick to notice, quick to accurately diagnose, quick to begin the most effective treatment, and quick to change the treatment if need be.

Quinine sulfate is the MOST effective ich medication for both freshwater and saltwater strains, including formalin-resistant ones. It is also the quickest acting and the safest. It is fine for loaches. It really does not stress them out at all. It is a go-to drug for loach breeders among others. Other medications such as prazi, griseo, and numerous antibacterials are also safe. The newer medications are not only safer but far more effective than the drugs of 10 years ago or so. While any chemical that goes into water will put some strain on the fish, the medications I mentioned are minimal in their harm, as is there negative effect on nitrifying bacteria. However, the mainstream 'big box' stores are yet to catch up to 2011 and are still selling fish medication from the 1970s such as tetracycline, formalin, malachite green, sodium-xxxxx, etc...and so..to be blunt, they carry medications which are highly toxic (and can harm people when they handle them!!), do a poor job at curing sick fish, and do an excellent job at killing both sick and healthy fish.

Thank you NickZac for correcting fuzz16 about clown loaches.

I will see about getting the quinine sulfate for my clown loaches.  Will it harm the goldfish, and plecostamus'?  Also is it safe for bettas?

Technically you are in a bit of a jam because the goldfish is a coldwater fish and the loaches are from very warm waters (near Discus warm in some cases). Normally it is recommended against housing them together but that does not mean it cannot be done. The issue here is that bumping the temp up will aid the health of the loaches but at the expense of the goldfish. At 72, the health is favoring the goldfish at the expense of the health of the loaches (79-82 seems ideal for the loaches from what I have read and learned first hand). The other issue is that goldfish produce an enormous amount of waste which is thought to overwhelm the systems of some tropical fish. Their ammonia production is monumental due to the waste they produce. If your pH is below 7, then ammonia becomes ammonium and that particular issue is not a problem as ammonium is non toxic. If your pH is 7.0 or above, watching the ammonia is a must given the medication could start a chain reaction leading to a huge ammonia spike, and loaches do not deal well with even slight ammonia levels. However, I know very little about housing goldfish with tropicals as I only have done tropical fish myself. I do not know much about goldfish but quinine is safe for Koi, which are a type of goldfish and so I would assume it is safe.

 

[Sweetie]

I do have a 10 gallon fishtank but all three goldfish are big and they would over crowd the 10 gallon fishtank. I tried putting one goldfish in the 10 gallon and the fish is big, so all three of them are not going to be very happy in the 10 gallon.

Ok thank you! I will look for the quinine and use that the next time my clown loach(es) is/are sick.

 

[fuzz16]

you take a med long enough, your body becomes immune and so it is recomended you QT and treat them seperatly.

it is stressful for fish to be medicated, taken whatever into their body that they dont need.just because it is something that is supposed to help them, doesnt mean that it is good for them or okay for them. any medicine is never good for anything: plants, fish, animals, people.

Scaleless fish should be medicated with caution, cats and loaches are one thing, but even more so carefully with rays and momyrids.

instead of medicating when things get sick, why not, like i said and was blatantly ignored, figure out why and how the illness was introduced to your tank and find a way to keep it from happening again. any good fishkeeper who respects the hobby will recomend water changes and temp rise before medicating, as like me, they see medicating as a last resort.

just because someone doesnt have a reaction that they can see, doesnt mean there are things going on that they cannot see and you could have a different reaction.

 

[NickZac]

fuzz16 wrote:

you take a med long enough, your body becomes immune and so it is recomended you QT and treat them seperatly.

it is stressful for fish to be medicated, taken whatever into their body that they dont need.just because it is something that is supposed to help them, doesnt mean that it is good for them or okay for them. any medicine is never good for anything: plants, fish, animals, people.

Scaleless fish should be medicated with caution, cats and loaches are one thing, but even more so carefully with rays and momyrids.

instead of medicating when things get sick, why not, like i said and was blatantly ignored, figure out why and how the illness was introduced to your tank and find a way to keep it from happening again. any good fishkeeper who respects the hobby will recomend water changes and temp rise before medicating, as like me, they see medicating as a last resort.

just because someone doesnt have a reaction that they can see, doesnt mean there are things going on that they cannot see and you could have a different reaction.

Medicating should be a last resort. This is absolutely true. And water parameters should be checked in times of both sick and health (we checked them daily). 9 times out of 10 the cause is environmental and the treatment can be environmental as well. That does NOT mean you cannot medicate a fish because it is more sensitive. Many fish that are more sensitive to medications are also more sensitive to disease severity. Also, many fish that are more sensitive to both of those are even more sensitive to incorrect water parameters.

My discussions to medicate are implied to only advocate medication if environmental causes can be eliminated. If you have bad water parameters, you can dump in all the medication in that you want to and the outcome is usually death. It is worth noting that even if you realize you have bad water parameters and you have fish with a severe illness, just correcting the water parameters will still usually result in dead fish. I always advocate the use of a QT tank but not everyone has the ability to do so or is willing to do so. Ideally, you isolate any individual fish showing signs of illness from other, presumably, healthy fish and you observe everyone closely.

A hypothetical example is that if the fish is covered with a parasite and your nitrate readings are very high (without other issues), it should be assumed that 1) high nitrate readings lead to susceptibility through possible nitrate poisoning and 2) the parasite took advantage of the fish's subsequent weakness(es). The solution is then to 1) eliminate the high nitrate readings and 2) kill the parasite without killing the fish. Trillions of microorganisms live in any fish tank and many are harmful when the fish becomes susceptible. It is much like how we are covered in staph bacteria but non-complicated staff only causes an infection if there is a weakness in the host. For the fish, this weakness comes from stress, usually through bad water conditions. The way we differ from fish is that we have full, complete, and total control over their entire world. This can be a blessing to some fish and doom to others.

The bigger worry of resistance is the pathogens becoming immune more so than the fish although I think this is what you are saying. Traditional antibiotics no longer work in many cases. This is due to antibiotic resistance from human usage, largely from improper use. Traditional fish meds like tetracycline and erythromycin have well documented issues of resistance (in both people and fish). Even the more recent fish medications like oxytet, minocycline and others have issues. The general trend has been revisiting sulfa drugs that were stopped years ago due to 'more state of the art' medications. For both human and fish use, these old sulfa drugs have found a modern value. Many of these sulfa drugs have also been found to stress the fish significantly less. This is why if choosing to medicate and it important to remember that not all medications are made the same.

Indeed scaleless fish are more sensitivity however that does not mean do not medicate them. Loaches are perhaps one of the most susceptible fish to both ich and velvet (especially in lower temp community tanks). If left untreated, they often die. While many loaches can withstand a heat elevation up to the high 80s and even very low 90s, this in itself can stress the fish and its odds of killing certain parasites is less than it was years ago as the ich parasite has developed itself.

 

[Sweetie]

Again thank you NickZac!

fuzz16: I am ignoring you because it seems like you are not seeing that clown loaches need to be medicated right away at the first sign of illness, before it progresses. If I did a water change and the illness got worse in my clown loach then medicated her and she died because of it, I would be very upset. After treatment, I will be doing a complete water change (the tank needs it). I am not going to do any water changes as of yet until after the treatments because I am not going to stress my sick clown loach. Besides with clown loaches the illnesses they get spread pretty quickly and you have to treat it early otherwise you run the risk of losing them to the illness. Plus I cannot separate three clown loaches.

 

[Sweetie]

Just found something out about clown loaches:

Due to their sensitivity to pollutants and nitrates, Clown Loaches are totally unsuitable for newly set up aquaria and should only be introduced to established, fully cycled tanks.

I didn't know this, but my 55 gallon was fully cycled before I added them to the tank.

 

[NickZac]

Sweetie wrote:

Just found something out about clown loaches:

Due to their sensitivity to pollutants and nitrates, Clown Loaches are totally unsuitable for newly set up aquaria and should only be introduced to established, fully cycled tanks.

I didn't know this, but my 55 gallon was fully cycled before I added them to the tank.

Loaches are like discus in that ANY ammonia levels will quickly kill them. A quick temp flux of only 2+ degrees is enough to seriously harm them, and a quick pH flux of .2 or more can send them into shock. Even a light .25 ammonia reading is enough to stress them to the point of death. If there is any ammonia in the tank at all with sensitive species like that, you need to be sure the pH is below 7.0 or use a neutralizer if it is above 7.0. Loaches like softer water and so keeping the pH below 7 is pretty common. Many types of drift wood, some which is found in their native habitat, do this naturally, and they also release trace elements into the water which is beneficial for development (and some plecos eat drift wood).

For established tanks with these sensitive fish, the biggest threat to them is nitrates. High nitrates can cause considerable harm and unless your tank is heavily planted, then the only real way to remove them is regular water changes. Another big threat is hexamita (hole in the head), which is now thought to occur from a lack of essential trace elements in the water (and NOT a parasite as previously suspected). Tap water (and RO) lacks many of the trace elements found in their native waters and it can lead to poor development and even disease. I have always used trace element liquid additives with all of my fish. If you use trace elements, you will see better coloration and more vibrant fish, provided you are using the right type. Feeding a high quality food with trace minerals is also a must. Fuzz16 makes a good point in that prevention is important as is maintaining the highest quality water quality given you have fish which are almost as sensitive to water quality issues as discus.

 

[lilylop]

I keep discus and yeah they are very sensitive to anything. Hopefully you get this issue solvevd soon

 

[fuzz16]

goes back to breeding as well. get a discus from bad breeding and it wont come close to anything from a decent breeder...BYB vs hans. nice knowing theres other discus keepers here

And your welcome to ignore me, all good and well, but my information is correct from my research and experiance and it is your choice, your actions to do when it comes to your fish. as a public forum, i was giving an opinion.

Water changes wont stressfish, actually its like a rain or drought, new water coming in, as long as the temp is fluctuated greatly, which can be resolved via warming the water before putting it in tank.

whenever you add fish to a tank, it will add to bioload, and then the bacteria will have to catch up and so there may be a nitrite/nitrate spike. hence why you dont buy a ton of fish at once, you get a few at a time.
low levels of nitrates are normal, under 5ppm is nothing to worry about. nitrites and ammonia is bad.

you also have to keep in mind the amount of stress they go under from importing and then thrown into tanks, being netted, sloshed around in a bag on the way home, then introduced to a new place.

live plants help any fish tank, mosses and java fern/anubias are low light plants that require no nutrient supplients other than maybe column, but they wont suffer without additivis. but they will work like filters and help the water quality.

and ick is like the flu, its always there, just something makes it comes out.

 

[Sweetie]

I will be preventing my fish from getting sick by doing water changes and testing the water. I will be testing the water weekly after I am done treating my sick clown loach.

fuzz16: the prevention part that you said was correct. You also said that I cannot medicate clown loaches, which is not true as NickZac mentioned. Also you said that I need to quarintine(sp) my sick clown loach; I have three clown loaches, I cannot separate them, they cannot be alone, the lonliness will kill them because they are social fish. If I had 4 clown loaches I would be able to separate them, meaning take the sick one and a healthy one and put them into a quarintine(sp) tank and just medicate. But with 3 clown loaches, cannot do that.

But yes I will be testing the water every week and doing water changes as needed to prevent illnesses. After treatment and things are okay again, I will move my goldfish over to the 10 gallon and do weekly water changes with that tank. I will put my doubletail betta in a one gallon fishtank that I still have.

 

[Sweetie]

NickZac wrote:

Sweetie wrote:

Just found something out about clown loaches:

Due to their sensitivity to pollutants and nitrates, Clown Loaches are totally unsuitable for newly set up aquaria and should only be introduced to established, fully cycled tanks.

I didn't know this, but my 55 gallon was fully cycled before I added them to the tank.

Loaches are like discus in that ANY ammonia levels will quickly kill them. A quick temp flux of only 2+ degrees is enough to seriously harm them, and a quick pH flux of .2 or more can send them into shock. Even a light .25 ammonia reading is enough to stress them to the point of death. If there is any ammonia in the tank at all with sensitive species like that, you need to be sure the pH is below 7.0 or use a neutralizer if it is above 7.0. Loaches like softer water and so keeping the pH below 7 is pretty common. Many types of drift wood, some which is found in their native habitat, do this naturally, and they also release trace elements into the water which is beneficial for development (and some plecos eat drift wood).

For established tanks with these sensitive fish, the biggest threat to them is nitrates. High nitrates can cause considerable harm and unless your tank is heavily planted, then the only real way to remove them is regular water changes. Another big threat is hexamita (hole in the head), which is now thought to occur from a lack of essential trace elements in the water (and NOT a parasite as previously suspected). Tap water (and RO) lacks many of the trace elements found in their native waters and it can lead to poor development and even disease. I have always used trace element liquid additives with all of my fish. If you use trace elements, you will see better coloration and more vibrant fish, provided you are using the right type. Feeding a high quality food with trace minerals is also a must. Fuzz16 makes a good point in that prevention is important as is maintaining the highest quality water quality given you have fish which are almost as sensitive to water quality issues as discus.

So I will watch the levels and make sure that they stay normal. I bet that all the levels are normal, but I will be checking as soon as I am done treating my sick clown loach.

 

[Sweetie]

lilylop wrote:

I keep discus and yeah they are very sensitive to anything. Hopefully you get this issue solvevd soon

Thank you! NickZac and I are staying in touch through this whole thing, because I am still worried about my sick clown loach. I am watching my sick clown loach like a hawk when I am awake and making sure that she doesn't quit fighting this illness that she has.

I am hoping that she gets better after the ich treatment. I have done the fungus treatment and the fungus is better, now I am treating her with ich medicine because she was scratching on the rocks and had ich on her fins underneath. I am hoping that she doesn't have a bacterial infection, but I will dose for that if she does. I sure do love my clown loach.

FYI lilylop: I have three clown loaches, two plecos, three goldfish, two bettas, one black skirt fish. I want to get more clown loaches, but I will wait until I have everything working right again before I get more clown loaches.

 

[NickZac]

fuzz16 wrote:

goes back to breeding as well. get a discus from bad breeding and it wont come close to anything from a decent breeder...BYB vs hans. nice knowing theres other discus keepers here

And your welcome to ignore me, all good and well, but my information is correct from my research and experiance and it is your choice, your actions to do when it comes to your fish. as a public forum, i was giving an opinion.

Water changes wont stressfish, actually its like a rain or drought, new water coming in, as long as the temp is fluctuated greatly, which can be resolved via warming the water before putting it in tank.

whenever you add fish to a tank, it will add to bioload, and then the bacteria will have to catch up and so there may be a nitrite/nitrate spike. hence why you dont buy a ton of fish at once, you get a few at a time.
low levels of nitrates are normal, under 5ppm is nothing to worry about. nitrites and ammonia is bad.

you also have to keep in mind the amount of stress they go under from importing and then thrown into tanks, being netted, sloshed around in a bag on the way home, then introduced to a new place.

live plants help any fish tank, mosses and java fern/anubias are low light plants that require no nutrient supplients other than maybe column, but they wont suffer without additivis. but they will work like filters and help the water quality.

and ick is like the flu, its always there, just something makes it comes out.

I love Hans! I have been in Hans' facility and all I can say is he is the most methodical person I have ever dealt with and the ultimate authority in discus. His are def the best of the best. The only discus I ever dealt with were from Hans despite breeding pairs costing as much as a grand and more!!! I would not sell to anyone who would mix my discus with Asian discus.

What did you use for spawning? I played with a variety of clay pots, hand-made slate concoctions, PVC pipes, and small cones (yes, I stole that method from Hans). Ultimately, I wound up covering a small cone in slate which worked pretty well, but a damned Fire Red pair I had would still lay eggs in other places just to mess with me. If I put a cone in on the left, they laid eggs on the glass wall to the right. If I put three pots in the center then they laid eggs on the live plants in the back. If I put PVC pipe in, they laid eggs on the filter tube. Each time they did it they would look at me the next morning almost to say "what now sucka?!?!"