Molar Extraction

[TORY93]

Hi Guys

I made a post a few weeks back about my rabbits dental history which some of you may seen.

It has been confirmed that she has maloclusion and will always need to have dentals regardless of how much hay she eats etc.. her upper molars no longer fully line up with the lowers so when she eats her upper teeth are only going across 3/4 surface area of her lower molars so the part 1/4 closest to the tongue keeps spurring off and it will always spur off, this is begining to occur more frequently (every 3 weeks or so), we had a check up with our vet today and the spurs are not digging into her tongue or causing any irritation at the moment.

The topic of extraction was bought up. My vet cant do extractions and she would need to be referred, before we go down that route my vet Is going to speak with the RVC Camden to get all of the necessary information in order for us to make an informed decision.

I was wondering what other peoples experiences of this was?

Its her lower 2nd and 3rd molars (potentially also her 1st lower molar but this has currently been burred right down to the gum line (thats all in my other post). If anyone has any experience in this please could you let me know your thoughts on the below?

- if her lower 2nd and 3rd molars are the effected teeth, I assume the upper 2nd and 3rd molars would also need to be removed.. does that seem right?

- do you know what the procedure process is? My vet mentioned about cutting the cheeks open and doing a bone lift!?

- I know it will vary on the case but does anyone know roughly how long the procedure will take?

- will I be able to bring her home the same day? She hates being in enclosed spaces it stresses her out.. quite often when she has a dental burr under anesthesia I get asked to pick her up earlier than they normally would because she gets stressed being caged up.

- recovery process, what's involved? Although currently working from home I would probably book the week off to ensure she has my 100% focus

- any idea on costs? (Its a non issue really because if its in her best interest I will do what ever it takes but im just curious as I have seen people say they pay £150 for a dental burr and I pay double this so was just curious)

- any other information I may need to know or would be good to know?

I am hopefully going to catch up with my vet later this week to go through what the RVC have advised, we also have another check up in a weeks time so will discuss it again then .. if I do decide to go ahead I will obviously also have a consult with a RVC vet but just thought I would see if I could do a bit of research before hand.

Also just a note, apart from her teeth she has no other health issues but she is 8 (please dont tell me to have her put to sleep, this is NOT an option)

If you read this far thank you.

Look forward to your replies.

Thank you x

 

[JBun]

Depending on how many teeth need extracting, it may have to be broken up into more than one surgery. What all is involved and how long it will take, depends on how many teeth need extracting and how easily they come out.

Cost are probably going to be pretty high as it's a pretty big surgery as far as I'm aware.

Your rabbit is going to be sore, swollen, and will need pain meds and syringe feeding for a while. Then will likely need to be on soft food permanently.

I haven't had to have this done, but have read of other owners having extractions with their rabbits. And at least those accounts, their buns adjusted to the changes and new diet fine. Though each rabbit is different on how they will adjust to what's happened.

Medirabbit has articles on extractions that you can read up on. You have some excellent rabbit vets in the UK that are capable of this kind of surgery, though I don't know how close you are to any of them. Too bad Frances Harcourt Brown is retired. She was the expert on rabbit dentistry in the UK, and pretty much the world.

Medirabbit: dental issues in rabbits

 

[Diane R]

Molar extraction is a serious operation and is normally only done when teeth are loose or there is an infection. You said your vet is going to speak to the RVC. Where do you live? Is there any chance you can bring your bunny to the RVC Beaumont hospital in Camden? They are excellent and have extensive knowledge and experience of dental surgery. I would not consider having this type of surgery done by anyone other than an expert. RVC Small Animal Veterinary Practice and Hospital

 

[TORY93]

Depending on how many teeth need extracting, it may have to be broken up into more than one surgery. What all is involved and how long it will take, depends on how many teeth need extracting and how easily they come out.

Cost are probably going to be pretty high as it's a pretty big surgery as far as I'm aware.

Your rabbit is going to be sore, swollen, and will need pain meds and syringe feeding for a while. Then will likely need to be on soft food permanently.

I haven't had to have this done, but have read of other owners having extractions with their rabbits. And at least those accounts, their buns adjusted to the changes and new diet fine. Though each rabbit is different on how they will adjust to what's happened.

Medirabbit has articles on extractions that you can read up on. You have some excellent rabbit vets in the UK that are capable of this kind of surgery, though I don't know how close you are to any of them. Too bad Frances Harcourt Brown is retired. She was the expert on rabbit dentistry in the UK, and pretty much the world.

Medirabbit: dental issues in rabbits

Thank you for your reply.

The syringe feeding etc isn't a problem, as it stands at the moment I have been syringe feeding my rabbit since the 24th April when she had her last dental burr. She is eating some soft pellets by herself and completely finishes her veggies and eats x2 bowl fulls of fresh grass a day, but hasn't shown too much interest in hay, so I have been giving her 1 15ml syringe of recovery food every 4hrs and whilst I'm holding her I hand feed her hay just so I know she's getting enough of what she needs.

I've been sleeping on the floor in the living room for weeks and getting up in the night to do feeds so im pretty familiar with the assisted feeding life.

The maloclusion is just on the one side (touch wood) so hopefully she may still be able to eat normal foods on the other side .. if we do go ahead with it.

Thank you for the articles I will have a read through.

 

[TORY93]

Molar extraction is a serious operation and is normally only done when teeth are loose or there is an infection. You said your vet is going to speak to the RVC. Where do you live? Is there any chance you can bring your bunny to the RVC Beaumont hospital in Camden? They are excellent and have extensive knowledge and experience of dental surgery. I would not consider having this type of surgery done by anyone other than an expert. RVC Small Animal Veterinary Practice and Hospital

Hiya Diane

Thank you for replying.

It was the Beaumont I would be looking to have it done at should we go ahead with it.. my vet is going to speak with them first to see if it is a viable option and what it would fully entail and then me and my vet will discuss and hopefully have a plan of action is less than a weeks time as her molar spurs are growing already despite a dental a few weeks ago.

Her molars are loose but we don't know how far down that goes, there is a little bit of give there but it might be due to a weakness in the top half of the tooth or something, we arent sure at this stage.

The only reason I am considering the procedure is because shes an 8 year old and her dental burrs used to be once a year and now they're becoming a lot more frequent.. it hasn't steadily sped up its happened all of a sudden and we are looking at doing burrs every 3 weeks or so which is a lot for an 8 year old and as the teeth are malocluded things aren't going to improve tooth growth wise.

Despite being 8 (9 later this year) she is in really good health (touch wood), not heart or organ issues, shes very mobile, doesn't get hock sores she has only had stasis once in her life (touch wood) so having her put to sleep just doesn't seem like a reasonable solution for a tooth issue, I appreciate her age but I have had rabbits live to be 13 so she has the potential for another life time ahead of her.

My vet has been using a different anesthesia on her the past 3 or 4 dentals and she has bounced back in herself a lot quicker than she used to when he used another type (i cant remember the names).

I am terrified of her having to have an extraction and if there were any other alternatives I would be more than open to them but I feel like I am being backed in to a corner and may not have a choice.

If we do go through it I would take a week off of work to ensure she gets all the care she needs from me, shes my world and I would do anything for her.

 

[TORY93]

@Diane R Please may I ask what your experiences with the RVC Beaumont was like? I've been waiting a week and a half and I still don't have an appointment date. My vet has put in an "urgent referral" I have seen the request and he has chased it up with calls and emails but nothing. My vet and I wrote down a list of questions on Tuesday 11th May and sent it off to them, they didn't reply until Tuesday 18th, basically ignored all the questions told us how much it would be and that was it. They said they would recommend her having a CT scan which they can only do in Barnet or they can do a consult, xrays and a procedure at Beaumont on the same day(weather that be an extraction or a burr), I said I would rather her just have xrays and not the CT scan as it would mean her being put under anesthesia twice in potentially the space of 1 week and that's not really something I want to risk at her age if I can get away with it.

On the 18th my vet tried to call them and couldn't get through so we wrote another email asking the questions again and said we would prefer to do a procedure solely on xrays and not a CT if possible because of the anesthesia concerns.

Its now the 21st and they have only just responded and reiterated the CT Scan and ignored everything else. My vet has tried to call again but to no success.

I am now having serious doubts as to if a referral to the RVC Beaumont is the right thing, the way they are acting doesn't seem like they have my rabbits best interest at heart, they may be good science wise but how do I know that they will treat her with the same care and concern as my normal vet and not just see her as "some other animal".

I'm feeling very frustrated, especially as I have now been syringe feeding since March. She is eating by herself, some days she will eat a whole bowl of veggies and grass and sometimes she will barely touch it unless i hand feed her. Shes not eating hay (but she is eating grass), shes eating softened pellets, again some days like today she will empty her bowl other days she will barely touch it so I am topping her up with recovery food, some days more than others depending on how much she has eaten by herself and I am also doing night feeds. Her weight is stable so that's good but on her last check up on Tuesday her spurs have grown even more (not yet rubbing on the tongue) and my vet feels a dental will be imminent but we are trying to put off having it done with my vet so that the RVC can do it but they're just dragging their feet and I feel like I'm the only person that gives two hoots.

Sorry for the rant but I just feel like I'm not getting anywhere.

 

[Diane R]

@Diane R Please may I ask what your experiences with the RVC Beaumont was like? I've been waiting a week and a half and I still don't have an appointment date. My vet has put in an "urgent referral" I have seen the request and he has chased it up with calls and emails but nothing. My vet and I wrote down a list of questions on Tuesday 11th May and sent it off to them, they didn't reply until Tuesday 18th, basically ignored all the questions told us how much it would be and that was it. They said they would recommend her having a CT scan which they can only do in Barnet or they can do a consult, xrays and a procedure at Beaumont on the same day(weather that be an extraction or a burr), I said I would rather her just have xrays and not the CT scan as it would mean her being put under anesthesia twice in potentially the space of 1 week and that's not really something I want to risk at her age if I can get away with it.

On the 18th my vet tried to call them and couldn't get through so we wrote another email asking the questions again and said we would prefer to do a procedure solely on xrays and not a CT if possible because of the anesthesia concerns.

Its now the 21st and they have only just responded and reiterated the CT Scan and ignored everything else. My vet has tried to call again but to no success.

I am now having serious doubts as to if a referral to the RVC Beaumont is the right thing, the way they are acting doesn't seem like they have my rabbits best interest at heart, they may be good science wise but how do I know that they will treat her with the same care and concern as my normal vet and not just see her as "some other animal".

I'm feeling very frustrated, especially as I have now been syringe feeding since March. She is eating by herself, some days she will eat a whole bowl of veggies and grass and sometimes she will barely touch it unless i hand feed her. Shes not eating hay (but she is eating grass), shes eating softened pellets, again some days like today she will empty her bowl other days she will barely touch it so I am topping her up with recovery food, some days more than others depending on how much she has eaten by herself and I am also doing night feeds. Her weight is stable so that's good but on her last check up on Tuesday her spurs have grown even more (not yet rubbing on the tongue) and my vet feels a dental will be imminent but we are trying to put off having it done with my vet so that the RVC can do it but they're just dragging their feet and I feel like I'm the only person that gives two hoots.

Sorry for the rant but I just feel like I'm not getting anywhere.

Really sorry to hear this. The Beaumont are our 'GP' vets, that's where we are registered. I never had any problems getting an appointment or scheduling scans etc. They really are excellent rabbit vets and I never had reason to doubt that they take great care of bunnies going in for treatment. The nurses have had special training in rabbit care too. I wonder whether they are just incredibly busy at the moment. But they should give you an appointment. I agree, this is all rather frustrating. Have you tried calling yourself? I really hope you can get your bunny seen very soon.

 

[TORY93]

Really sorry to hear this. The Beaumont are our 'GP' vets, that's where we are registered. I never had any problems getting an appointment or scheduling scans etc. They really are excellent rabbit vets and I never had reason to doubt that they take great care of bunnies going in for treatment. The nurses have had special training in rabbit care too. I wonder whether they are just incredibly busy at the moment. But they should give you an appointment. I agree, this is all rather frustrating. Have you tried calling yourself? I really hope you can get your bunny seen very soon.

Thank you for coming back to me. I hadn't thought about calling myself as I didnt know if it would confuse matters and slow the process down what with it being a referral. I looked at calling Friday evening but it was gone 6pm and saw that they close at 6 and aren't open at the weekends?!

My vet actually called me Friday at about 8pm and although Beaumont made it sound like having a CT scan was optional they are now refusing to see her without one, I understand the importance but the initially said they could do a consult, xray and procedure all in one day without a CT scan so that was the option I wanted as i didn't want her having 2 GA's so close together but they have more or less backed me into a corner and I dont have a choice. I honestly feel like they aren't looking at the animals on a subjective basis and aren't doing what is best for that individual animal. I have reluctantly agreed to the CT .. still waiting on a date but apparently it should be this week.

They apparently don't have any avaliability for a dental procedure for the next 2 weeks!!! We put the request in 2 weeks ago, so they're telling me its a 4 week wait time?! I have a bunny that needs an urgent dental, teeth are nearly touching tongue and they want me to wait 4 weeks?! I genuinely feel like they aren't interested and I'm regretting the referral, my vet isn't happy with it either.

I have an appointment tomorrow with my vet and if I don't have a comprehensive plan in place I'm going to phone them and have a go and look at going elsewhere.

I have also since read reviews online and they aren't great either. One lady had the wrong rabbit operated on and it subsequently died and another guy feels the same way about them not caring about the animals and only being out to make money.

I feel so frustrated and lost and its not fair on my rabbit

 

[Diane R]

Thank you for coming back to me. I hadn't thought about calling myself as I didnt know if it would confuse matters and slow the process down what with it being a referral. I looked at calling Friday evening but it was gone 6pm and saw that they close at 6 and aren't open at the weekends?!

My vet actually called me Friday at about 8pm and although Beaumont made it sound like having a CT scan was optional they are now refusing to see her without one, I understand the importance but the initially said they could do a consult, xray and procedure all in one day without a CT scan so that was the option I wanted as i didn't want her having 2 GA's so close together but they have more or less backed me into a corner and I dont have a choice. I honestly feel like they aren't looking at the animals on a subjective basis and aren't doing what is best for that individual animal. I have reluctantly agreed to the CT .. still waiting on a date but apparently it should be this week.

They apparently don't have any avaliability for a dental procedure for the next 2 weeks!!! We put the request in 2 weeks ago, so they're telling me its a 4 week wait time?! I have a bunny that needs an urgent dental, teeth are nearly touching tongue and they want me to wait 4 weeks?! I genuinely feel like they aren't interested and I'm regretting the referral, my vet isn't happy with it either.

I have an appointment tomorrow with my vet and if I don't have a comprehensive plan in place I'm going to phone them and have a go and look at going elsewhere.

I have also since read reviews online and they aren't great either. One lady had the wrong rabbit operated on and it subsequently died and another guy feels the same way about them not caring about the animals and only being out to make money.

I feel so frustrated and lost and its not fair on my rabbit

So sorry to read this. They are normally open until 7 and they are open Saturday and Sunday too although there may not be any rabbit vets around then. But they would call a rabbit vet if necessary, in an emergency. My feeling is you would have been better off registering with them and making the appointment yourself. Hard to imagine they would refuse to see your bunny. Damn, I feel bad recommending them now but I do know for sure that the rabbit vets there are very knowledgeable. I know you are worried about repeated anaesthetic but I think I would be considering having the dental done now at your vet and then see what the CT scan says. As far as I'm aware, CT scans don't always require a general anaesthetic, he may just need to be sedated. Ah, all so stressful, I really feel for you. Keep us updated please.

 

[JBun]

What about Twickenham or Maidstone(Trinity vet)? Would either of those be close enough to you? I don't know if the vets there do dental extractions, but I do know they have experienced rabbit vets, particularly at Maidstone. If Trinity is at all doable, maybe give them a call and see if they do extractions. I don't know how they compare to the RVC, but I do know that Mark Rowland seems to be highly recommended by rabbit owners there.

 

[TORY93]

So sorry to read this. They are normally open until 7 and they are open Saturday and Sunday too although there may not be any rabbit vets around then. But they would call a rabbit vet if necessary, in an emergency. My feeling is you would have been better off registering with them and making the appointment yourself. Hard to imagine they would refuse to see your bunny. ****, I feel bad recommending them now but I do know for sure that the rabbit vets there are very knowledgeable. I know you are worried about repeated anaesthetic but I think I would be considering having the dental done now at your vet and then see what the CT scan says. As far as I'm aware, CT scans don't always require a general anaesthetic, he may just need to be sedated. Ah, all so stressful, I really feel for you. Keep us updated please.

Please dont feel bad for recommending them, my vet often talks about them and I was heading in thay direction anyway, it was nice to hear that a customer/patient recommended them.

I got a call this afternoon from the Potters Bar branch and they've booked her CT in for Thursday, the lady I spoke to was lovely but she seemed a bit clueless to be honest. I was hoping I could drop her off for the CT wait 2 hours and then take her home but she apparently needs to be there for the whole day?? My rabbit hates being caged in and gets very stressed out so im hoping this isn't going to be an issue.

I am seeing my normal vet tomorrow and im going to go over all of my concerns and will ask him if he would recommend anywhere else, im also going to mention my vet doing a dental and then still going to the RVC or another vet to see what other alternatives there are but at least I will have more time to do so and it will ellivate some of the stress. I just need to sit down with my vet (who I trust and love 100% its just a shame that he cant do anything more than what he already has done) and then weigh up my options.

 

[TORY93]

What about Twickenham or Maidstone(Trinity vet)? Would either of those be close enough to you? I don't know if the vets there do dental extractions, but I do know they have experienced rabbit vets, particularly at Maidstone. If Trinity is at all doable, maybe give them a call and see if they do extractions. I don't know how they compare to the RVC, but I do know that Mark Rowland seems to be highly recommended by rabbit owners there.

Thank you for your message, I live in Hertfordshire so Maidstone would be a bit of a trek, but for me as a person distance isn't too big of an issue, the only thing that concerns me is if she would have a procedure, its quite a distance to drive with my rabbit from vets to home and it might not be overly comfortable for her as she is recovering but I will definitely look in to it and maybe mention it to my vet tomorrow. Thank you

 

[Diane R]

Please dont feel bad for recommending them, my vet often talks about them and I was heading in thay direction anyway, it was nice to hear that a customer/patient recommended them.

I got a call this afternoon from the Potters Bar branch and they've booked her CT in for Thursday, the lady I spoke to was lovely but she seemed a bit clueless to be honest. I was hoping I could drop her off for the CT wait 2 hours and then take her home but she apparently needs to be there for the whole day?? My rabbit hates being caged in and gets very stressed out so im hoping this isn't going to be an issue.

I am seeing my normal vet tomorrow and im going to go over all of my concerns and will ask him if he would recommend anywhere else, im also going to mention my vet doing a dental and then still going to the RVC or another vet to see what other alternatives there are but at least I will have more time to do so and it will ellivate some of the stress. I just need to sit down with my vet (who I trust and love 100% its just a shame that he cant do anything more than what he already has done) and then weigh up my options.

When we went to the Queen Mary Hospital (Potters Bar) for a CT scan we didn't have to wait for the whole day but yeah, it was definitely more than 2 hours. My bunny is also very stressy so I know what a worry it is. Really hope it all works out.

 

[Shmibunny]

I can only speak for the top rabbits vets in Finland, but they usually do a CT under sedation. Apparently the time in the machine is really, really brief, but of course the things around it take some time. A word of caution though. Had one bunny go into stasis just from the trip to the vet hospital (about 2 hrs away) + CT + drugs when I didn't understand when her dopiness turned into quietness. So be sure to look after your bunny extra well on such days even if there's no anaesthesia or procedure involved.

As for the special vet wanting a CT rather than an X-Ray, they probably want to see the teeth and roots and all that in the best possible way before extraction. But it's also true that they don't necessarily always consider what all the trips + drugs + stress can do to a bunny or what it costs.

 

[TORY93]

Hi Guys,

Thank you both for your replies.

My rabbits eating slowed down last night and even more so this morning. I had a vet appointment this morning with my own vet, he confirmed her teeth were now rubbing on the tongue.. I knew it was coming. He said he was going to call the RVC Beaumont to see if they could move things along but couldn't so he called me back about an hour or so after I got home and carried out a dental burr on her today. She did have a CT booked for this Thursday but he arranged for this to be postponed to the 10th June as he was concerned about the anesthesia today plus and anesthesia on Thursday. They have confirmed that an anesthesia is needed for the CT but she won't be put down as deep as she would for a dental. The plan is to try and keep about 2 weeks between each anesthesia to lower the risk.

My vet is about 25 min drive, the vets doing the CT is about 30-35min drive and Beaumont who would do the extraction (if we decide to go down that route) is about 90mins away!

I'm quite lucky in that in her 8 years shes only had stasis once and that was completely my fault as I had given her alfalfa hay to encourage hay eating (was naive at the time and hadn't read into giving alfalfa hay to adult rabbits), but thankfully she's never had an issue (touch wood).

Hoping she will recover well from her dental burr today and he has bought us some more time to try and get all this referral business sorted out.

I'll be back to sleeping on the living room floor with her again over the next few days so I can keep an eye on her and give her some recovery food to get her nice and strong again

Hoping that the bulk of this will be resolved by the end of June