Last ditch effort before i give this rabbit away!

[Nelsons_Mom]

nobunnynoclue wrote:

Nelsons_Mom wrote:

Just try to keep in mind that her being under socialized is not her fault. Not being handled as a baby can make rabbits wary, but it is is not incurable. "

I would buy that if she were a rescued rabbit with an unknown or abusive past, but she was a product of breeding and the breeder socializes all her baby rabbits.   She was also handled by her first set of owners (or they tried anyway) and those people are SO careful not to do the wrong things and follow the "rules" to the letter, but she was afraid of them anyway.  Whatever it is/was that caused her deep seated fear of humans is unknown.   It has left all of us scratching our heads.    But her fear of people is not what I'm trying to fix.  It's her inability to be litter trained despite months of trying.


Nelsons_Mom wrote:

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but you admitted yourself that you have given away four animals in the past. While they all got loving homes is not the point. It just proves that maybe you should do more research about what to expect from your pets instead of expecting them to fill whatever shape you think that they should hold.

For someone who's not on a high horse, you sure are on a high horse!!  Did you even read my entire post or just skim it?  Sometimes things just don't work out no matter the best of intentions.

I know how much research I do before I get a pet.  I don't need to prove that to anyone.   I know how important it is.  But not all animals fit the description, do they?  I did months of research and thinking before I adopted my Australian Shepherd.  I wanted a breed that would have the energy and drive to do agility training while giving a homeless dog a chance at a good life with a family instead of a gas chamber.   But what did I get?   A couch potato with bad knees.  I have never met a dog with less energy in my life.  He doesn't even chase after balls.  But did I give him back to the shelter?   Hell no.  He's part of our family now.

Nope, Fiona neither likes people, nor does she confine her waste to the designated areas.  I did say I was taking her to the vet...  did you read that part?   If I didn't give a funion, then I wouldn't be here looking for answers or reading everything I can find on the subject.  

Btw, unless you didn't pick up on it, I have kids.  Human ones.  My #1 obligation is to them.  If that means re-homing a pet that is incontinent so that they can have a clean house to live in, then so be it.

It was never my intention to insult you. Please try to believe that.(Note to self: Do not write important posts in a rush without proof-reading because you will sound unnecessarily rude.)

Please understand that I never meant to imply that you did not love your animals or that you don't care. Obviously you do or you would not be here. I merely meant that are you sure that this decision is in HER best interest and not for YOURS? Sometimes acting in your interest can benefit the animals (such as the lab you felt was one too many and did not anticipate adding to your family), but because of her behavior I do NOT think that going to a different home would be a positive in her life at all.

While I understand completely how frustrating it must be to have a rabbit that refuses to litter train, sending her to a new home would be really devastating to her if she is as leery of people as you say that she is. In fact, her fear could make her behavior worse in a new environment and before you know it she's bounced from house to house, becoming more fearful and possibly aggressive because of it.

While you can't tell because this is a new account, I was once active on this forum for three years before taking a nearly-three year break. But I have "clocked" enough hours here to know that this is a great community who will do everything in our power to help you toilet train, and come to terms with this bun. It will take time and patience (which I am sure seems daunting with how much effort you have already put towards her) but I am confident that she is not a lost cause.

 

[SnowyShiloh]

Nobunnynoclue, let us know how it goes at the vet office! This may be a long shot, but does Fiona get hay on a regular basis? One of my bunnies becomes incontinent when not fed hay every day. The vet said that happens sometimes.

Also, I agree she may not feel completely settled in yet since she hasn't attempted to leave the office. For whatever reason some bunnies take a really, really long time to settle down in a new home. Rabbits are individuals like people, maybe she's a little neurotic or something.

It will be interesting to see if Jake's friendly ways rub off on Fiona. Maybe with a bunny friend she will feel more secure and get better with her litter habits (if she has Jake's behavior to model) and enjoy humans more.

 

[JimD]

Nelsons_Mom wrote:

While you can't tell because this is a new account, I was once active on this forum for three years before taking a nearly-three year break. But I have "clocked" enough hours here to know that this is a great community who will do everything in our power to help you toilet train, and come to terms with this bun. It will take time and patience (which I am sure seems daunting with how much effort you have already put towards her) but I am confident that she is not a lost cause.

In my years of owning/rescuing/re-homing rabbits, there have been several times that an unhappy bun found happiness with a new owner.

 

[toyabrooke]

Can I just say that sometimes a new permanent home for an animal isn't always so bad. If he isn't getting the attention he needs (which is by no means your fault), then maybe a family or person who can devote more time to slowly working through his nervousness or flightlyness with humans is the best option for him in the long run.

I hate the thought of letting any of my animals go and never have, but my mum has recently started taking care of my first ever pet I had on my own. He is a beautiful bunny, but he is the most aggressive thing you will ever meet. My hands are covered in scars from the first month we had him, and the emotional roller coaster we went through with him is still healing. My mum though is a very animal savvy person and is working with him so he can slowly trust us and not feel the need to be so dominant. He will NOT litter train no matter how hard we try, and prefers to poo and pee everywhere. He will bite you if you come too close, but he will also hop up on your chest and be cuddled if it is on his own terms. I know it isn't his fault he is like that, but I also know I was not cut out to take care of such a fiesty animal as I did not have the time or the knowledge of how to do so.

Poe is still in training, but seems very happy and at home in my mums lounge room (partly because she spoils him much more than I did ).

Whatever you do, make sure it is the best for your bunny. And like what other members have said, it isn't their fault. Everyone has a different nature

T

 

[goofymare]

Hello, I had problems with Karam too when I first got him. His past owners hadn't been spending as much time with him because of other rabbits they had rescued and had to tend to first. When he arrived at my house, he was completely terrified of me and he used to claw/bite me whenever I came near and I became terrified of him and started using an oven mit to handle him. Now he is the sweetest, most social rabbit ever and he wouldn't bite anyone even if you stuck your hand in his mouth. Anyways, I know it can be extremely frustrating. Like someone suggested earlier, I think you should close the office door to make her feel safer. Also, if you aren't already, take ATLEAST an hour a day to go in the office and spend time with her. You can do anything like reading a book, doing work, etc. You should sit down, preferably lie down and get down to her level so she feels safer. Just continue doing what you're doing and dont make any attempt to approach her; dont even look at her. Don't be disheartened if she doesn't come up to you the first few days. One day, just trust me, she will get accustomed to your presence and approach you. it just requires a ton of patience! Dont worry one day she will come out of her shell!
The litter training problem, its the exact same with Karam. Iman uses the litter box almost always, Karam doesn't. I just keep tryin with him though! He pees on the carpet around the litter box and poops around the litter box with a few stray poops. I put some diapers around the litter box and he pees on them, thank God! I guess I can't do anything about the poops but Im still gonnaa keep trying! ray: Maybe once Fiona feels safer in her habitat and she she sees her new companion using the litter box, she'll get the idea! Hope she improves a ton! Stay strong!

 

[funnybunnymummy]

nobunnynoclue wrote:

I guess putting her back in the crate with a litter box is a good idea. But she will be confined in there the majority of the day, however, is that OK?

I jut wanted to point out that keeping a rabbit confined to a cage for a few days/weeks/however long it takes to litter train them is not going to hurt them. It's far different than keeping a rabbit confined to a small cage for it's entire life.

I agree with the others. Confine her to her cage until she's at least litter trained inside her cage. Once she's got that figured out, then you can start giving her more space outside the cage.

I can't recall if it was mentioned, but putting hay in the litter box often encourages rabbits to sit in it (and therefore poop in it).

Also, clean up her pee and poop in her cage with tissues and put those into her litter box. Use a 50:50 vinegar/water mix to clean the spots where she pees to remove the smell.

And finally, if you've got shavings in the bottom of her cage, remove them. Leave it bare or put down a fleece blanket.

I also tend to agree with the others that think she's showing signs of insecurity and fear. It may not be the dogs. You didn't list all the pets you've got, but it could be cats, ferrets, birds, any number of things that could scare her. Heck, she could be scared of you or even your little girls. I'm not saying it's your fault. She's clearly a fearful/timid rabbit by nature. You've just got to learn how to build that trust to make her more comfortable (and less likely to mark her "territory").

Does she have a hide box or similar in her cage or in the room? Having somewhere to hide may make her feel more confident too.

Anyway, just throwing ideas out there. Hope something works for you!

Rue

 

[Nela]

Dear nobunny,

Let me tell you about my situation with my girl, Rolo, in the hopes that this can be of help to you.

I adopted a little rex girl, Giggles, from a backyard breeder that was terrified of people. They had a big annoying dog that used to like barking at the rabbits, a kid that was a bit rough and tough, and she wasn't really treated as a beloved member of the family let me tell you... She was terrified of me and people in general but she really is the sweetest bun. Unfortunately, she and my other bunny at the time, Smores, got a bit sneaky and did the naughty and that is how we ended up with Rolo.

From the moment Rolo was born, I was in love with her (although I was pretty convinced she was a he!). I felt her grow in her momma's belly,watched her being born via webcam, and was there from the very start. Of course, this meant that I was handling her. However, Giggles was very protective and very nervous and this of course rubbed off on my little Rolo. From the moment Rolo was out of that nestbox, she would do everything in her power to get away from me. Heck, I had never been thumped at by such a young bunny before! It didn't matter how gentle I was, how softly I spoke, nor how slowly my movements were, she was terrified because her instinct was to run, just as momma had taught her. I thought she would get better in time, I assumed I had the skills to make her turn around...

Giggles and Smores ended up being the couple they always wanted to be. Giggles is still not a people-loving bunny and she never will be. She is very skittish and hates being touched but as long as she is with her boy Smores, she is fine.

Rolo on the other hand? Wow how to say this... Oof. She's a hard case. You know, like you, so many times I was like "She needs to go" but then I couldn't do it. She's my girl you know? Every time I look at her I want to cry. She's so unhappy... She hates people, she's scared of everything... She just sits there and looks out into space. In all my years of dealing with bunnies, fosters, rescues, etc. she's been my hardest case. Perhaps I take it personally because she was born here and that aggravated me even more... I find it so difficult to deal with you know. I try and have tried for sooo long with her. Nothing. I get the very occasional binky if she is out in the garden but that's as far as it gets. I am limited in how much direct contact I can have with her because I sincerely am horribly allergic so that makes matters worse. I often think "Oh she should be with someone that can really *make* her see that humans aren't always to be feared" but then I think "Yeah, but who is that person that can really understand this and handle it and love her as much as me?" Everytime I consider rehoming her, I fear for her. I have rehomed bunnies and it's hard to let go of even sweet, sociable bunnies because you have to be sure that people truly are committed to them, but then to rehome a special casebunny like Rolo? Oof. It makes me crazy. And don't get me wrong, I am truly frustrated with her. She drives me absolutely bonkers! She's crabby, she's a dork, she's the messiest bunny I have ever seen, and her head is smaller than her body! But she is home, and she is mine.

With all of this, you know what I have decided to do with her? I have decided that if she's so much like her momma, she probably needs a wee buddy to make her happy. I think that with the company of a bunny that will love her and be more laid-back, she'll start coming out of her shell. I hold absolutely no expectation that she'll ever love me, nor tolerate my kisses, but as long as she can be happy, then all will be right in my eyes. This is the only thing I think can make her feel more secure.

So all that to say, that in the end, I truly understand your frustrations. If you are like me, you take it personally, because you know how much you love that bun and cannot quite understand why the bun is rejecting you. (Luckily, I have Maybelle to remind me that I am just not worthy of bunny company ) But seriously, it can be truly aggravating when you hope for something, even expect something, only to be faced with the total opposite. However, seeing how you are still in a moment of hesitation, I would say to give it a try with the new little guy and see what effects he can have on her. Seriously, if he can bring out all that good in her that she has, and make her feel more comfy, it would be the best outcome for everyone involved.

When you'll be at work, at school, out having fun, they would have each other for company. They'll need some space and their basics cared for, but other than that, bunnies are so happy in each other's company that it should be a load off your mind. Cost wise, it's not significant unless you have vet bills. I find bored bunnies tend to be more food-oriented than happy bunnies.

As far as the peeing and pooping goes, that does sound like nervous behavior. I would suggest you try and leave her pee and poop untouched for a while. Bunnies mark things to see if things have been disturbed. The longer things go undisturbed, the more secure they feel. I would soak up the pee on a paper toweland put it on some sort of dish in the same spot if you are worried about stains and leave it there for a bit so she can still smell it. It's what I do with all my buns when they settle in. Try and redo the litter training and see if that helps. perhaps your little guy could have a positive influence in that area as well. If you notice a particularly favoured spot, make sure to put a hay box and litterbox there as well. If all else fails, consider moving them onto a different flooring if possible.Perhaps in you have a ceramic tiled kitchen, it would make the mess less nerve-wracking. Perhaps you can just put tile under them in the room where they are. All these little things will add up in the end and make it easier for you.

For now, I would use your little guy as a tool. Even while they are not bonded, I would keep him close by so she can observe him and your interactions with him. Try to take the pressure off yourself, and off her and just give things a chance and see how it plays out. If in the end you truly truly feel she'd be happier elsewhere, then you will know you have done everything you could, and you will be much more confident in your decision.

Wishing you all the best!

 

[nobunnynoclue]

Going to answer a couple things before reading everybody's reply. Btw, I really appreciate all the help I have been given here. I have been a member of MANY forums and I know how personal people can take it when someone doesn't have the same dedication to their animals as they have to theirs.

Trust me, I'm dedicated!!

I'm not happy with this bunny, because SHE's not happy. I'm not sure what would make her happy. She has been given attention. She has been left alone for long periods except for being given treats and food and water. Nothing seems to make her happy.

HOWEVER, she has changed A LOT since we got the 2nd bunny on Friday. OMG, I used to call her with treats in my hand and she would not come out. She would just go up to the top floor of her "palace" and beg for treats there. We'd all oblige since she is so fearful to come up to people.

Well, rescue #2 (Jake) who we got on friday, hops right out and comes up to us even will climb on us begging for treats. He has that natural bunny wariness of loud sounds and sudden movements, but he is NOT afraid of us or our dogs or anything. Now when I come into the office and entice them with treats, he is the first out, but she follows him out too. She has even let me pet the top of her head a couple times. She NEVER has let us do that before.

So I'm hopeful.

The vet appointment is on Saturday at noon EST. I will let you guys know what the vet says after that.

 

[nobunnynoclue]

Btw, I have not put her in a crate with a litter pan because she seems so happy with Jake. I don't want to undo the good that his presence has done. I'm going to wait to see what the vet says, and wait to see if she starts using the litter box on her own. I have ordered a GINORMOUS litter pan which she could not possibly back her little butt over the edge and pee (on the off chance that this is also happening). I know she pees on a totally opposite side of the cage as well. I'm also going to put a littler pan out side of her cage somewhere else in the office.

 

[nobunnynoclue]

Nelsons_Mom wrote:

It was never my intention to insult you. Please try to believe that.(Note to self: Do not write important posts in a rush without proof-reading because you will sound unnecessarily rude.)

I understand completely.

 

[nobunnynoclue]

I know it's bad etiquette to make multiple posts... sorry. I'm at work and dividing my attention....


toyabrooke wrote:

Can I just say that sometimes a new permanent home for an animal isn't always so bad.

Yep, I agree. But it also worries me to put an animal up for adoption who has these problems. Someone else may not have half the patience we have had with her and just take her to a shelter to be gassed or feed her to their pet snake. I've thought of this as well... I'd have to find an extraordinary pet lover to give her to first, or someone who will keep her outdoors where this kind of thing doesn't matter.

I can't recall if it was mentioned, but putting hay in the litter box often encourages rabbits to sit in it (and therefore poop in it).

Yep, that's what I do. recycled paper litter in the pan, then hey on top.

Use a 50:50 vinegar/water mix to clean the spots where she pees to remove the smell.

Nope, haven't done that. I've clean the pans with soap and water. What's the purpose of using vinegar instead ?

And finally, if you've got shavings in the bottom of her cage, remove them. Leave it bare or put down a fleece blanket.

The hay does get tossed around from the litter pan to other parts of the cage but I don't put hay anywhere except for in the litter pan.

I also tend to agree with the others that think she's showing signs of insecurity and fear. It may not be the dogs. You didn't list all the pets you've got, but it could be cats, ferrets, birds, any number of things that could scare her.

Whoops, forgot to answer this one...

We have 2 dogs, 2 conures, 2 ball pythons, a large fish tank (which will be going away soon) and a baby Congo African Grey. She does see the conures often because I take them out and take them to the office often, but I never force them on eachother or anything. Only one time she was close to one of the conures, she (Fiona) sortof attacked her (the bird).

Heck, she could be scared of you or even your little girls.

Hmph.. well, I gotta say that when we first got her, my daughters (especially the 5 year old) was a little over zealous. She would climb inside of the rabbit's cage to grab her. When I found out she was doing this, I gave her a warning and said that if she did that again, I would give the rabbit away. She hasn't done it since (to my knowledge). I recently read that going into the cage after her is a bad thing. I'm guilty of that myself. Now I know better.

Does she have a hide box or similar in her cage or in the room? Having somewhere to hide may make her feel more confident too.

Yep, 2 in fact. One is made of wood but I think it's too small actually and I should probably just get rid of it. She never uses it. The second one is made of fabric stuffed with something or other. A very cozy and big hiding place, she uses sporadically. None other in the room. But we have loads of empty cardboard boxes so we can make more to put in the office.

Nela, Thank you so much for your post. It's inspiring and makes me feel good to know that even the best homes can produce a rabbit afraid like this and that it's likely a learned behaviour (or not) but rehoming her does worry me for the reasons I said before. Who else is going to put up with her ?!

 

[nobunnynoclue]

Also, Fiona never bites, but she stomps a lot. *A LOT* She has made some strange sounds while lunging at you. And she will swat at you if you stick your hand in the cage. (Now I know that sticking your hand in the cage is bad while they're in there, so I won't be doing that anymore other than to place bowls of food in. I'll also be spending some time RE-educating my kids about this because altho they no longer climb in to grab at her, they do climb in to give her food).

 

[JimD]

I wonder if this is all a territorial thing....or lack thereof?

It almost sounds like she hasn't been able to establish herself.
The peeing/pooping could all be a marking instinct.
Cage aggression is sometimes a sign of a territorial issue.
Thumping could be an insecurity thing.

Maybe adding the new bun in some way "grounded" her.
If she is seeing it's okay for another bun to interact with you.....maybe she's starting to realize that she can too.

Taking her to the vet is a good idea, just to make sure there's nothing physically wrong.
However, I'm thinking that this may all be a psychological thing.

 

[candykittten]

Yay I'm glad the addition of new bunny is helping her feel more comfortable! Maybe this is her turn around point Things can only get better once you hit rock bottom

 

[funnybunnymummy]

Vinegar will remove the smell of the urine, which soap and water alone can't do. Rabbits have a very strong sense of smell and will pee where they've peed before. Making sure the only pee smell in the cage is in her litter box will encourage her to use it more.

I also agree this seems psychological vs. physical. Hoping the addition of a buddy is just what she needed to come out of her shell!

Rue

 

[nobunnynoclue]

We have a large area run in the office that takes up most of the space. It has been peed on. How would you clean that ?

I wanted to steam vac it using the usual carpet cleaning solutions...

 

[ZRabbits]

nobunnynoclue wrote:

We have a large area run in the office that takes up most of the space. It has been peed on. How would you clean that ?

I wanted to steam vac it using the usual carpet cleaning solutions...

Can't you put the vinegar and water solution in the steam vac? Plus I'd be a little leary of the "usual" carpet cleaning solutions with animals but that's just me. I have a hand held steam vac that I just use water in, spray the vinegar solution from another bottle and do it that way. My whole living room is carpeted, and I have had a few accidents on it. That's how I did a whole big area.

Hope this helps.

K

 

[JimD]

Steam can set the stains and odors.

Clean the carpet using a water extraction carpet cleaning machine, or a carpet shampoo machine and cool water only....no chemicals or cleaners.

And then use a pet odor neutralizing powder (available at pet stores or your vet's office). The powders contain live bacteria and enzymes that eliminate odor causing protein and bacteria, andpermanently removie it. These products also contain a mild cleanser.
Sprinkle it on and let it sit for about 6-8 hours and then vacumn. Wait at least 24 hours before letting the buns on it.

If it's really soiled, you may have to repeat the process.

The carpet is usually easy to get clean. It's the padding underneath that tends to be the problem.

I had to clean the carpet because of my dogs. After they were FINALLY housebroken I tried cleaning it, butI ended up replacing the carpet and padding anyway.

 

[Nelsons_Mom]

I'm so glad the new boy is helping her to come around c: