jamesedwardwaller
Well-Known Member
thank you ,i do now have a referral(from my old specl.)to a specialist(dr.fuxa) in renton-highlands-bird and pet clinic/and a 5pm appt.for exam and radiograghs..sincerely james
LAGAMORPH//ABSCESS/not for beginners
- Thread starter jamesedwardwaller
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Pipp
Well-Known Member
Was the appointment today?
How did it go?
sas :?
How did it go?
sas :?
jamesedwardwaller
Well-Known Member
sweeden had surgery 10 am 2-17-09,..picked her up at 5 pm,.get this,.baytril,some metacam, no reglyn,etc. for gut mobility./.has not pooped since early am,.as i am typing 14 hours now,..no poops./.i gave her reglyn-1ml-about 6pm-(my own personal stash).i put fresh greens,etc in stall-no poops,-10pm now,..personal opinions accepted asap..james waller [email protected] :X
Pipp
Well-Known Member
What was the surgery? Did they have to go into the bone or just removed an encapsulated abscess, or???
Above all else, keep her warm and hydrated. Anesthetic effects will make her cold and miserable.
Don't give her the Metacam without making sure she's hydrated, and preferably has a little food in her stomach, but make sure she has enough of it. Will she eat parsley if you wave it in from of her? Mine get mad and grab it to throw it and more often than not end up eating it.
Although with facial surgery, chewing may be more of an issue, so I'd stock up on canned pumpkin and a little baby food.
I wouldn't panic about the poops, give it 24 hours. I also wouldn't use the Reglan. It's to stimulate the tract movement, but it won't do any good (and could be terribly uncomfortable regardless) unless she has food in her system. Worry about getting her to eat. The poops will follow eventually.
Do you have canned pumpkin on hand? If she still hasn't eaten and you need to give her more Metacam (I find the doses don't last more than 12 hours), might be an idea to syringe some into her.
sas :clover:
Above all else, keep her warm and hydrated. Anesthetic effects will make her cold and miserable.
Don't give her the Metacam without making sure she's hydrated, and preferably has a little food in her stomach, but make sure she has enough of it. Will she eat parsley if you wave it in from of her? Mine get mad and grab it to throw it and more often than not end up eating it.
Although with facial surgery, chewing may be more of an issue, so I'd stock up on canned pumpkin and a little baby food.
I wouldn't panic about the poops, give it 24 hours. I also wouldn't use the Reglan. It's to stimulate the tract movement, but it won't do any good (and could be terribly uncomfortable regardless) unless she has food in her system. Worry about getting her to eat. The poops will follow eventually.
Do you have canned pumpkin on hand? If she still hasn't eaten and you need to give her more Metacam (I find the doses don't last more than 12 hours), might be an idea to syringe some into her.
sas :clover:
Pipp
Well-Known Member
PS: If you're syringing her a little water, better that it's warm than cold.
jamesedwardwaller
Well-Known Member
hi pipp,.just posted my grief,.(sweeden).surgery 10am,.nothing like reglyn for gut mobility,-only baytril/metacam,...go figure-evrtything seemed to go well till i pickedher up at 5pm/she has not pooped for over 14 hours..ie 6pm when i got home i dug into my medical kit found some reglyn? 1.0ml x4 daily till pooping--that was 6pm,.still waitng another dose coming at midnite,i am furious:X,go figure,doc.says well looks like she has been eating,.no weight/temp.,nothing!!--your thoughts,..james waller [email protected] :cry1:
Pipp
Well-Known Member
Ugh, honestly, don't give her the Reglan. Most people here don't like it to begin with, but this isn't the time for it regardless.
She's going through a typical pain and post-anesthesia response. Once the pain shot they give them at the vet's office wears off and they're not in an incubator set up or receiving sub q fluids, they appear to go downhill.
But the pain meds, warmth, warm fluids and soft, palatable food is really what she needs.
The Reglan can hurt a lot more than it can help.
What was the diagnosis? How extensive was the surgery?
How much Metacam is she prescribed and when was her last dose?
sas :?
She's going through a typical pain and post-anesthesia response. Once the pain shot they give them at the vet's office wears off and they're not in an incubator set up or receiving sub q fluids, they appear to go downhill.
But the pain meds, warmth, warm fluids and soft, palatable food is really what she needs.
The Reglan can hurt a lot more than it can help.
What was the diagnosis? How extensive was the surgery?
How much Metacam is she prescribed and when was her last dose?
sas :?
jamesedwardwaller
Well-Known Member
sweeden got metacam-0.3ml at 6pm-(wasn,t supposed togive till tomarrow) but i figured she was in pain,..vitals at 11pmare temp 99.8/.weight 6#5oz./2860 kg down from 6#7oz/2920kg- 24 hours-ago,..the metoclopramide 1.0ml at 6pm is trying to give her an appetite/one little poop,: her enviromment is heated 70*/64*-at 10:30pm i found her in her nest box,trying to poop/took weight and body temp:nerves1,i won,t sleep until she poops,i have baby food beechnut garden vegy,s and ground up some pellets to syringe feed her if need be
ray:,sincerely james waller
ray:,sincerely james waller
Pipp
Well-Known Member
You need to give her a snuggle-safe heating pad (non-electrical) or even heat up a sock full of rice or beans for her to snuggle with.
The low temp is just a normal reaction, but you have to bring her temp up, more than just keeping her at room temperature.
A little warm water will help. She HAS to have water if she's taking the Metacam. Give her the baby food, I wouldn't worry about the pellets quite yet.
The Reglan may be causing her further discomfort. The Metacam also takes awhile to work, she should be coming out of it soon with the heat, fluids and pain meds.
This really is normal for post surgery.
I'm still not clear what they did, though?
sasray:
The low temp is just a normal reaction, but you have to bring her temp up, more than just keeping her at room temperature.
A little warm water will help. She HAS to have water if she's taking the Metacam. Give her the baby food, I wouldn't worry about the pellets quite yet.
The Reglan may be causing her further discomfort. The Metacam also takes awhile to work, she should be coming out of it soon with the heat, fluids and pain meds.
This really is normal for post surgery.
I'm still not clear what they did, though?
sas
ray:
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
Would simethicone and tummy rubs be appropriate in this case? I could imagine that she could have some gas in her belly (from intubation during surgery?) that could be impeding her ability to pass poos.
jamesedwardwaller
Well-Known Member
hi pipp/guys:..i took your advice about the reglyn,just the one dose last night at mid night ,-temp last night was-99.8*rectal,,low end of the spectrum,-but she did start -some -poops,-i installed a video cam w/night vision/audio,.3:30 pm today she took about a three min.drink-somewhat active-for a nocturnal critter/tonight will tell,/.put more baby food out for her,..carrots peas/and the garden vegy,s.,/another temp is in order around 8:00pm before any baytril/metacam-,it may prove the heating pad necessary?!.in her nest of orchard grass/3 liter tupermade-box/she appears to be grooming ang chewing grass,/.no pellets-yet,/her sisters are at the fence/wondering what she did wrong(visitation,.rrrrrr,rrr).,..:rollseyes:biggrin2:,sincerely james waller
ra7751
Well-Known Member
James,
I am very concerned about the drugs you are using. Gut motility drugs are totally and 100% inappropriate for rabbits. Not made for this type of gut. Comes from a time when people thought cats and rabbits were the same. I don't know of any rabbit savvy vet that will use them. They can be life threatening when used improperly.
DO NOT OVERDO THE METACAM!! While it is a safe and effective drug when used properly....it is very rough on the liver especially when given to a dehydrated animal, excessive doses or long term dosing. It should be a very small amount (depending on weight of the rabbitand concentration of the drug)no more than once every 24 hrs.
Baytril is probably not up to dealing with your rabbit's issue. Metacam is not enough pain meds after surgery....narcotics are appropriate post-op And honestly, I have dealt with more abscesses than most vets ever see and have never opened one. Is your vet rabbit savvy?
Don't mean to sound blunt....but this entire treatment protocol brings up some concerns for me. But my concern is for your rabbit.
Randy
I am very concerned about the drugs you are using. Gut motility drugs are totally and 100% inappropriate for rabbits. Not made for this type of gut. Comes from a time when people thought cats and rabbits were the same. I don't know of any rabbit savvy vet that will use them. They can be life threatening when used improperly.
DO NOT OVERDO THE METACAM!! While it is a safe and effective drug when used properly....it is very rough on the liver especially when given to a dehydrated animal, excessive doses or long term dosing. It should be a very small amount (depending on weight of the rabbitand concentration of the drug)no more than once every 24 hrs.
Baytril is probably not up to dealing with your rabbit's issue. Metacam is not enough pain meds after surgery....narcotics are appropriate post-op And honestly, I have dealt with more abscesses than most vets ever see and have never opened one. Is your vet rabbit savvy?
Don't mean to sound blunt....but this entire treatment protocol brings up some concerns for me. But my concern is for your rabbit.
Randy
jamesedwardwaller
Well-Known Member
dear randy,..we have issues, please do not take to heart my disapointment,.!.the trouble with posting information/concerns,is that they can be misunderstood,.but backed up with scientific logic,so-i will be patient and try to explain what is going on,with lagamorph (sweeden),.so here goes,.:.current medications are/baytril-antibiotic- 2x daily(22.0mg),metacam-pain- once daily(0.3mg),..the one animal i can think of with same gut/intestinal tract as a rabbit is the horse,.. these herbavoirs systems are quit different from any other ,they must have a diet high in fiber ie.(orchard grass or timothy grass),and rabbits must be supplemented with-pellets- 1 ounce-pellets- per pound of body weight,and you can add an occassional treat apple w/o seeds,stems,oranges,fruits and vegy,s-(no ice berg lettuce).-,-the reason for the high fiber diet is to lubricate the machine/motor ,so to speak,.,this system is very delicate and compromized when anesthetics/illness/pain/stress/etc,are involved,..do you agree with this so far,it is not hear say,but-scientific- facts,..ie.house of rabbits society,.rabbit secrets(john livingston w/phd).just to name a couple,...so-.midnight the seventeeth/feb,.there were still-no poops,sweeden had not eaten since early am-(18 hours),.i gave 1.0ml of-metoclopramide,-to stimulate-any interest in eating,..which is what it does/and did,,-she was fighting -mild fever,-some pain and dicomfort from the surgery,...i installed a video camera(color)with audio to keep awatchful eye on her 24/7,.she has been drinking water,eating orchard grass,pellets,and some fresh picked dandylions,grasses,//-her environment is 21 st century-i may get some pictures posted later,-,there was no mention or use of penicillin-g,./the abscess/surgery/ was a must do,..the hope now is that everything clears up / heals up and hopefully won,t require any teeth to be removed/.re-infection..,,.abscesses are dealt with like a cancer /removed entirely,-i do not know of any abscesses which do not reqiure surgery,../.i hope this has been informative and is not intended to ruffle your feathers,so to speak,..i also raise homers,and have quit a few in my collection in my rehab-of injured,disabled,disguarded critters,-and i am going to list you as a friend so i can keep tabs on you,..sincerely james waller [email protected]
How's your bunny?
I don't think Randy saw your post.
Most of us try to steer clear of the gut motility drugs because several members have had bad experiences with them, ( sometimes there .is a blockage that doesn't show up on x-ray). Randy won't use it at all and despises those meds. We try to get the rabbit pooping by giving SQ fluids . other members are comfortable with gut motility drugs so we're a mixed bag.
In terms of baytril we have members that have good results from it but many of us have rabbits that have just become resistant to the enrofloxicins because they are so frequently prescribed.
For jaw absesses and other abscesses we would use injectablebicillin (given sq every other day ) and a synergistic drug like chloramphenical or zithromax given orally . many of us have found that baytril alone is just not powerful enough to get rid of an abscess.
Anyway, James , we didn't want to think that we forgot you but i guess we were waiting for a response from Randy ( who is our resident expert)
let us know how things are going ?
Maureen
I don't think Randy saw your post.
Most of us try to steer clear of the gut motility drugs because several members have had bad experiences with them, ( sometimes there .is a blockage that doesn't show up on x-ray). Randy won't use it at all and despises those meds. We try to get the rabbit pooping by giving SQ fluids . other members are comfortable with gut motility drugs so we're a mixed bag.
In terms of baytril we have members that have good results from it but many of us have rabbits that have just become resistant to the enrofloxicins because they are so frequently prescribed.
For jaw absesses and other abscesses we would use injectablebicillin (given sq every other day ) and a synergistic drug like chloramphenical or zithromax given orally . many of us have found that baytril alone is just not powerful enough to get rid of an abscess.
Anyway, James , we didn't want to think that we forgot you but i guess we were waiting for a response from Randy ( who is our resident expert)
let us know how things are going ?
Maureen
jamesedwardwaller
Well-Known Member
hi maureen,.it should not take phd,s for everyone, but you would think more people would be on the same page than not- i am the first to admit i am no expert on what i am doing-and i do not like playing god--but i have only my experience and contacts of the last 5 years to verifywhat i do,,and,.facts are facts/and how they could be so misconstued/or variedis beyond me,..just some thoughts,.sincerely james waller:rollseyes
What is really important is that your bunny is improving . That's what we care about.
Many people are on the same page with you .
Kathy Smith who is an author of several excellent publications on rabbit health advocates the use of gut motility drugs when needed. (she has recerntly joined this forum)
Randy and his vet team at Sabrina's are doing 'cutting edge"treatmentsto improve rabbit medicine and expand options to better help rabbits in the future.
I have used sq injectable bicillin (procaine penicillin/ benzathine penicillin) myself many times on rabbitswho have not responded to baytril. Babette ,( a minilop)(who is now deceased) had a upper respiratory infection that would reoccur every few months. at first she responded well to baytril but in time her symptoms would break through in the middle of long courses of treatment on it.
Injectable penicillin was the drug that cleared it up entirely.
I have a friend who is using it for a very severe deep ear infection in an English lop with good success.
many mnay members of this forum have used injectable penicillin with an oral drug for severe bite wounds / and or abscesses with excellent success.
many of us have used baytril and if the baytril works and the bunny is fine that is great . Some of us, however have learned that the infection will reoccur later.
I have use IM baytril which I have found seems to work better than the oral.
The important thing is that your bunny is doing well.
Just like everything in human medicinetheir are also changes and advances in veterinary medicine and since the rabbit is becoming a more popular house pet there is the need to advance and develop better treatment for rabbits.
I'll give you some of our library articles on abscesses if you want to take a look ..
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11791&forum_id=10
We aren't attemtping to disrespectful to you in any way
Don't change what is working for you .
We are just letting you know what works for us.
Maureen
Many people are on the same page with you .
Kathy Smith who is an author of several excellent publications on rabbit health advocates the use of gut motility drugs when needed. (she has recerntly joined this forum)
Randy and his vet team at Sabrina's are doing 'cutting edge"treatmentsto improve rabbit medicine and expand options to better help rabbits in the future.
I have used sq injectable bicillin (procaine penicillin/ benzathine penicillin) myself many times on rabbitswho have not responded to baytril. Babette ,( a minilop)(who is now deceased) had a upper respiratory infection that would reoccur every few months. at first she responded well to baytril but in time her symptoms would break through in the middle of long courses of treatment on it.
Injectable penicillin was the drug that cleared it up entirely.
I have a friend who is using it for a very severe deep ear infection in an English lop with good success.
many mnay members of this forum have used injectable penicillin with an oral drug for severe bite wounds / and or abscesses with excellent success.
many of us have used baytril and if the baytril works and the bunny is fine that is great . Some of us, however have learned that the infection will reoccur later.
I have use IM baytril which I have found seems to work better than the oral.
The important thing is that your bunny is doing well.
Just like everything in human medicinetheir are also changes and advances in veterinary medicine and since the rabbit is becoming a more popular house pet there is the need to advance and develop better treatment for rabbits.
I'll give you some of our library articles on abscesses if you want to take a look ..
http://www.rabbitsonline.net/view_topic.php?id=11791&forum_id=10
We aren't attemtping to disrespectful to you in any way
Don't change what is working for you .
We are just letting you know what works for us.
Maureen
jamesedwardwaller
Well-Known Member
sweeden-update,./.all is well that ends well,.i suppose,.lagamorph sweeden is doing very well,post surgery,no re-infection,no further meds/other than those stated earlier,regaining lost weight,..in my experience with rabbits the sooner a problem is dealt with eliminates alot of grief,..these creatures are so frail it is a wonder they survive at all,..god bless and thanks everyone for your concerns,i do my best to answerany questions or responses,..sincerely,.james waller [email protected]This is very good news James
tonyshuman
Well-Known Member
Great news!
James,
Welcome to the forum. I hope you can enjoy it now that Sweden is well. It's lovely to read that she has made a full recovery.
I don't have the lagamorph medical knowledge of you and other members here but know being aware of changes and monitoring progress or any seen relapse is crucial, and you had that well and truly covered.
Best wishes to you and hope to hear more from you soon.
Jo
Welcome to the forum. I hope you can enjoy it now that Sweden is well. It's lovely to read that she has made a full recovery
.I don't have the lagamorph medical knowledge of you and other members here but know being aware of changes and monitoring progress or any seen relapse is crucial, and you had that well and truly covered.
Best wishes to you and hope to hear more from you soon.
Jo
