Just got a new bunny! Super nervous...

[JBun]

That is a lot of cectropes! And yes, they do stink, but they look fully formed and not pasty, so that's good. Just means he is producing too much, instead of there being a bacterial imbalance causing them to be pasty and left uneaten.

If this seems to have started with him eating the pellets, I think I would either remove the pellets or just give him a pinch, and go back to the alfalfa hay if he's still not eating the orchard grass very well. Then what I would do is feed him enough alfalfa that it lasts 8-9 hours, remove whatever is left and leave only grass hay for the next 3-4 hours. Providing the alfalfa most of the day will ensure that he is eating enough so he's not going hungry, but will give him a few hours where the only choice is the grass hay, so if he is getting hungry again then he will only have the grass hay to eat. Then at 12 hours repeat, alfalfa for 8-9 hours, grass hay for the next 3-4 hours. When feeding hay only(no pellets), you will also need to provide a salt lick.

Then as you notice him gradually starting to eat the grass hay more, cut back on the alfalfa hay a bit more, gradually decreasing until you are only feeding a small amount and mostly grass hay. When you get to this point I would start gradually adding pellets in(unless you opt to go with a pellet free diet) as you gradually decrease the alfalfa hay even more, until you get to the point where you are only feeding the alfalfa as a treat and your bun is on the normal amount of pellets for his age and size, and freely eating grass hay.

One other thing is the pellets you are feeding. There could be an issue with them and your bun possibly being sensitive to something in them. What brand and type of pellets are you feeding?

 

[lavendertealatte]

Thanks for the detailed advice Jbun! The pellets are Kaytee FortiDiet Pro Health Juvenile Rabbit Food

 

[JBun]

When you start the pellets back up, maybe consider switching to oxbow or another high quality brand. It could be that the kaytee pellets are a problem for your bun. They have a lot of grains and other unusual ingredients that might have been the cause of the excess cecals. If your bun will almost be 6 mo. old when you transition back on, maybe just go straight for the adult pellets.

When feeding hay only, it's also a good idea to weigh your bun regularly to ensure he's still either gaining(from still growing) or stays at a healthy weight. Also good to run your hands over the back to make sure he doesn't feel bony from weight loss. Back should have muscles on each side of the spine and feel rounded.

 

[lavendertealatte]

Yeah I think it's the pellets :/
Gave just hay yesterday night.. I think alfalfa, and this morning found only normal poos only.. then put in grass today and only a little bit of pellets before I left work.. when I put in the pellets he went right for it .. when I came back from work I saw a few soft poops. He didn't seem interested in getting pets from me today after work which is sort of unusual .. every day before this he comes over for petting and makes very content tooth purring sounds .. but today.. nope. he was going to the dish and trying to eat from it even though there was nothing inside but crumbs, and I had just put in grass and he sniffed it and wasn't interested. I wonder if he was feeling hungry ..
We let him out in the evening and he def wasn't as hyper as he was yesterday (the day I had to clean ALL those cecotropes..) Still binkying, just kind of in slower motion lol.
x___X

By the way.. sometimes he starts chewing at the carpet. I stop him by saying no and putting my hand under his chin to block him.. but what would be more effective, especially if I'd like to have him roam the area without constant supervision eventually?
Also I did catch him chewing on the baseboard. I saw BlueEyes on your site that you "tac" a 1x3 .. can I ask what that means, do you mean you stick it on with tickytac or am I misunderstanding "tac" .. and how do you get the right lengths, did you cut it yourself?

Well, now that I know he likes the pellets so much.. they work very well for convincing bunbun to go back into the pen after playing outside because saying Bunbun go home! doesn't work

He's stretched out on his cage floor now, which is a first because it's not in the litter box! Yay I'm glad he's feeling comfy to flop But I'm a little bummed he does not seem interested in my attention today Might he be annoyed cause I was picking him up and flipping him on his back so I could wipe his poopy butt? Hrm...... I'm kind of tired/flustered.. maybe he's picking up on that.

Also I have not ventured into nail trimming but I can't imagine how anyone does it peacefully.

Also how does outdoor time work? When I had a bunny as a kid he was basically free roam in our yard. We never really thought about predators or anything like that, and didn't have trouble in this area.

 

[lavendertealatte]

Gave some pellets yesterday night .. only like .. seven maybe, and alfalfa hay. This morning.. still finding a clump of cecotropes next to the box.
Also pee not in the litterbox.. but still in "his territory", the other half of the pen which I don't sit in. What to do? :/ Not sure but the usage seems to go down as the box gets more dirty.. like on the third day. Cleaned out the box and I am throwing away a bunch of the hay :/

So this morning, I put in orchard grass. And he looks a me like, I don't want this, is there more hay coming? ALFALFA HAY? .....
Do buns generally like Timothy Hay more than Orchard Grass?

 

[Blue eyes]

Wow, lots happening at once. I'll start with that reminder that he's right about the age when hormones can activate. Remember, a young rabbit that seems to take to litter training can 'forget' that training with the onset of hormones. Those hormones can also cause excessive destructive chewing along with other behavioral changes. So I would not read too much into his not wanting attention. (Even once fixed, willingness for attention can be arbitrary and at the whim of bunny's current mood.)

I'd consider getting him neutered asap in regards to the carpet chewing (among other things). The carpet chewing is not something you want him to get in the habit of doing. It could be more hormonal driven and could subside or stop altogether after being fixed. Is he only doing it in certain areas like corners? If it is just in specific areas, you can block that area somehow. A piece of tile could work.

Hormones, then, could be largely responsible for litter training issues, excessive chewing, and any moodiness.

For the baseboard protection, I used tac nails (little skinny nails) to attach the boards. I only needed two nails per board. The nails are really thin (like a tac) so they don't leave a gaping nail hole when removed. Untreated white board is what I used. It can be bought in different lengths. If you need a specific length and don't like to cut it yourself, the hardware store will usually cut it for you.

Oh, and you were wondering if he was annoyed at being handled for cleaning... yes, rabbits can and will hold grudges! He'll forgive you in time.

I'd certainly wait until he's neutered and settled before venturing to allow him outside the house. Before you do, though, I'd suggest considering the number of cautions listed here. It isn't necessary to allow him outside, but if you do, it should always be under constant supervision. There are birds of prey everywhere. That x-pen would be a good idea as well for outdoor time.

 

[JBun]

I would just remove the pellets for now then. Even after that it may take several days for the excess cecals to clear up, as it could be the pellets are altering the microflora in the cecum to some extent, and that can take time to be reestablished back to normal.

He's still eating the alfalfa hay alright? I would just continue with that, with those few hours of only grass hay, and gradually increasing the grass hay only time while decreasing the alfalfa time. It might be worthwhile to try a different grass hay like timothy or maybe even oat hay if he's not taking a liking to the orchard. Rabbits usually like oat hay because of the oat grains in it, but they can sometimes cause messy poop so you would need to keep an eye out for that if you decide to try the oat hay.

Also make sure to provide the salt lick if he doesn't have one. Pellets have the needed salt added to them, so when they aren't getting pellets they need to have another source to get the needed sodium in their diet.

 

[lavendertealatte]

He starts to eat the grass hay when I leave lol. I just don't know if he's eating --enough -- When I first put it down he’s like standing on his hind legs as if to say ..... anything else? Ok I’ll have to get a salt lick.

Unfortunately the pulling at the carpet isn’t confined to areas it’s very random.

There aren’t many experienced rabbit savvy vets in this area although one vet place said their doctors are all able to fix rabbits, but nothing else with rabbits. The other place is really expensive .. around $300 for boys and $400 for girls :O :O Is it worth it to drive hours to go elsewhere?

 

[lavendertealatte]

Still waking up finding a clump of cecals, not as big though :/ Is it bad if there are any uneaten cecals or it's not so bad if it's not much? It's annoying to clean cause it dries and sticks, maybe I just need to put another box in that corner for now?

I didn’t see anything pasty this morning although some of the cecotropes are kind of flattened looking but I did see pasty in his box a few days ago. Do I need to be concerned about a bacterial imbalance?

//edit// sorry I hope it's okay that I'm treating this topic as a journal of sorts.

New box didn't really help.. either his bum is sitting over the corner (the corner box has a low side) and the pee is ending up next to the box.. or he's sitting next to the box peeing while munching hay.. haven't caught it in action yet. My hunch is that the litterbox is too dirty so he's going elsewhere (today is day 3) .. maybe I have to change it out every other day.

Well another new development.. Bun has started biting me. Normally when I let him out he just runs around but today, I was lying down and he decided to try everything to bite me as I was trying to move my limbs out of his way. Multiple times. What's going on? Hormones? Is he hungry because of his diet change? :/

 

[lavendertealatte]

When you start the pellets back up, maybe consider switching to oxbow or another high quality brand. It could be that the kaytee pellets are a problem for your bun. They have a lot of grains and other unusual ingredients that might have been the cause of the excess cecals. If your bun will almost be 6 mo. old when you transition back on, maybe just go straight for the adult pellets.

When feeding hay only, it's also a good idea to weigh your bun regularly to ensure he's still either gaining(from still growing) or stays at a healthy weight. Also good to run your hands over the back to make sure he doesn't feel bony from weight loss. Back should have muscles on each side of the spine and feel rounded.

Hi JBun, if I switch to Oxbow, how soon is it okay to switch and would I be feeding the type for adult rabbits, like timothy hay pellets?

 

[lavendertealatte]

Seems he might have ISC...
https://rabbit.org/intermittent-soft-cecotropes-in-rabbits/

It mainly happens at night. He’s still producing a lot and they looked squashed. I wonder if I need to take him to the vet. This link also says it could take weeks to months to clear up! Eeks!!!

 

[JBun]

Are the cecotropes coming out normally formed in clusters(before they get smooshed), semiformed where some is pasty and some is the normal looking cluster, or unformed where it's all pasty. ISC or cecal dysbiosis is when the cecals are semi or unformed and pasty, and this is usually from excess carbs in the diet. It usually only takes weeks to months to correct when it's been an ongoing problem for months to years, so it can take a good bit of time to reverse the imbalance that's occurred, which isn't something that applies to your buns situation.

If the cecals are coming out in normally formed clusters(then getting smooshed afterwards) and being left uneaten, it can be from a diet too rich in protein or carbs, from a rabbit that is distracted(new place, nervous about something, or is a young rabbit), or from a health problem making it difficult for the rabbit to reach down and consume the cecals(overweight, arthritis, spinal issues, joint issues).

My guess for your rabbit is that it's the pellets or the high protein alfalfa hay that is causing excess cecals. Once your bun is eating the grass hay better and is getting less alfalfa(less protein), the cecals should start clearing up. It can sometimes take several days for this to happen due to how the cecum works.

If it doesn't clear up, it could be a distraction issue, and if so it could be the young age or there could there could be something else distracting your bun from consuming his cecals normally.

The biting could be that he is feeling hungry. With your bun being close to full grown age, I would just start him on the oxbow adult pellets right away. They aren't as tasty as alfalfa based pellets, but if he really is feeling hungry then he may be more inclined to want to try them. I would gradually increase the amount over a week or two, so that I was feeding the recommended amount for his size at the end of that period(always keeping an eye out for mushy poop). While you are getting him onto the new pellets and restricting alfalfa hay, just keep a close eye to make sure he is eating a lot of the orchard hay(pile the size of his body twice a day at least, while he's not getting any pellets or not very much at the start). If he isn't, then that could explain the biting from being hungry. As he gradually is getting more pellets, his hay consumption will reduce to about a pile the size of his body per day.

It's really up to you whether you think he needs to go to the vet or not, but usually with this type of problem it's a dietary issue and not necessarily something the vet will do anything about. It usually takes the owner making the necessary dietary alterations to help get things back in balance. As long as there is no watery or pudding like diarrhea(where it's the fecals that are messy and would be an emergency), and the cecals are normally formed or semiformed, I would just continue working out the diet. But of course if you are concerned and feel that he needs to be seen by a vet, then you should do that.

 

[lavendertealatte]

Thanks for the reply Jbun. So now I’m barely giving any alfalfa hay now compared to the orchard grass so that’s why I’m concerned I’m still seeing them.
They also don’t look like the grape clusters I see in pictures. They look like flat rounds and they’re usually in this spot where no box is. It only happens now at night so I can’t tell exactly what it looks like coming out of his butt. sometimes I do find stray flat rounds as well.

 

[lavendertealatte]

I’m also finding small patches of pee. Could it be dribbling or he’s walking around after sitting in pee?

 

[JBun]

The clusters can be broken up sometimes by the rabbit, and that is normal. It's when the individual capsules that make up the clusters, don't come out in capsules but come out looking like a lump of paste that it's a problem. This picture is what they look like semiformed where you can still see the evidence of capsules, but they are also somewhat pasty looking.
https://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/2012/09/20/palmbob/39fd2b.jpg

This picture is more unformed cectropes and pretty much completely pasty.
https://www.bunspace.com/static/photobucket/4727/DSCF9780.JPG

It sounds like you've got normally formed capsules where the clusters are broken up and some of the individual capsules are smooshed flat circles. If you want to post a clear close up picture of the cecals, I might be able to get a better idea of what's going on.

He could be peeing over the edge. Trying a litter box with higher sides all the way round, would fix the problem if that's what he's doing.

 

[lavendertealatte]

Hmm I didn't think it was that he's peeing over the edge cause I'm finding yellow spots in random areas but not puddles.

I'm hoping no cecals tomorrow.. gave like a 20:1 ratio of orchard grass to alfalfa hay today.. but if there are .. will take a close up. It's a little hard for me to tell what "pasty looking" is still. I did find something pasty looking in his litter box maybe about a week ago, but didn't pay too much attention cause it was in the box smeared with hay.

 

[JBun]

He could be urine spraying. He's about the right age for those hormones to be coming in and start that kind of thing, marking territory. One major reason for getting boy buns neutered. I know it drove me nuts.

The other possibility when finding dribbling urine is UTI, but usually with that they will have urine soaked fur on the inside of the back legs as well. And it's not as likely for a bun his age.

 

[lavendertealatte]

I hope he hasn't been urine spraying on my carpet without me knowing it.. I let him out in the evening and watch him, and the only way I can tell if he's peeing is if he stops moving and then I start to suspect. Which he did the first time I let him out but hasn't since... But how does spraying work? hmm I think he knows the outside area is not his territory so hopefully he's not spraying.

 

[lavendertealatte]

Better today. It seems like no matter where I put the box though he purposely wants to put the cecotropes where there is no box. I have two and thinking of getting a third at this rate.

Just noticed bunny's feet were totally pee stained.. so he was trekking fresh pee all over the pen

 

[lavendertealatte]

So I got very excited and set up the xpen attached to bun's pen today.. he had been doing great .. no accidents outside of his pen when there was no xpen.. but today.. with xpen set up, he peed on the fleece blanket. noooooooo. tried to stick him back into the litter box but it was too late. fleece blanket in the wash and bunny back inside.