Is This Stasis?

[Flashy]

Sometimes it's hard when someone hits the nail on the head, but also it can be useful.

What I do wonder is if you hand over a share of their care to your husband will you still blame yourself so much and feel that you have to carry all the responsibility? Would you trust your husband?

This forum is here for people to use as they wish. You have to put yourself first and if that means being here sporadically, or only when you need help, then that's ok. I personally am here sporadically, and only when I can be. You should only do what you feel able to do, or what you want to do.

I think it is very easy to turn grief into a crusade, and I'm wondering if maybe you haven't fully grieved for your kitten and everything you went through together?

Stasis is a tricky thing to grasp, and I think when you go into panic mode, whatever grasp of it you have goes out the window and then you're faced with racing, irrational thoughts and utter panic as to the outcome.

I guess that's where ways to manage your anxiety come into play, so that you can slow down those thoughts, and start to look at the situation rationally and take into account everything you can see.

I wonder if Emma is hypersensitive. I have a guy called Star, he is most definitely hyper sensitive and reacts very much more to things than anyone else (a bit like me, lol). If I am feeling low, he will pick up on it and his appetite will wane, thus leading to smaller poos. If he is moulting he will get smaller poos. If something slightly different happens from his normal routine he loses his appetite and again his poos go. He is very in touch with me, which impacts on him. I do wonder if maybe Emma's problem might not be physical, but be sense related which causes the gut issues. If she is sensitive and picks up on your anxiety, that might make her situation worse and creates a gut problem, if that makes sense, just through lack of something (be it food, water, hay, etc) caused by stress. I don't know, I'm just speculating, and it might be that you just have to get used to poo of various sizes.

Another option is that depending on the size of her poo, and how small it is, it might be that that is normal for her, and the bigger ones are actually the abnormal ones (just to throw something else into the mix).

Your last sentence is probably one of the most important things you have addressed.

Because if I'm completely shot, then I've nothing to even offer my animals.

This is so true. You need to look after yourself in order to be able to look after them, and looking after yourself will also mean you will be a better rabbit owner too, because you will be more balanced. If you chose to ignore your problems and not get help and you couldn't cope with the buns, as unfortunate as it is, that would be your fault, however, if you do everything you can to help yourself, then that wouldn't be an issue because then you have taken care of every aspect you can, which is all anyone can do.

Please let us know how you get on at the vets.

 

[Jenk]

Flashy wrote:

What I do wonder is if you hand over a share of their care to your husband will you still blame yourself so much and feel that you have to carry all the responsibility? Would you trust your husband?

I may still feel responsible, and I'm fairly certain that my husband still wouldn't be as vigilant as I. (As with most guys, details seem toelude him.)

I think it is very easy to turn grief into a crusade, and I'm wondering if maybe you haven't fully grieved for your kitten and everything you went through together?

Actually, I believe that I am "grieved-out" over Savannah. I cried for weeks' prior to her passing and for several weeks' afterward. I talked things through with other pet owners (friends/co-workers) and can think of her fondly without crying.

Stasis is a tricky thing to grasp, and I think when you go into panic mode, whatever grasp of it you have goes out the window and then you're faced with racing, irrational thoughts and utter panic as to the outcome.

I can't disagree with that point and am aware of my racing, irrational thoughts' presence. (I think that ignorance really is bliss. :?)

My biggest problem is not knowing how long to wait to see if Emma's fecal size/qty. improves before running her to the vet. (A big part of me is scared of the thought of her having to be hospitalized again--and, yes, the cost that goes with it.)

I wonder if Emma is hypersensitive. I have a guy called Star, he is most definitely hyper sensitive and reacts very much more to things than anyone else (a bit like me, lol)....If he is moulting he will get smaller poos....I do wonder if maybe Emma's problem might not be physical, but be sense related which causes the gut issues. If she is sensitive and picks up on your anxiety, that might make her situation worse and creates a gut problem, if that makes sense, just through lack of something (be it food, water, hay, etc) caused by stress. I don't know, I'm just speculating, and it might be that you just have to get used to poo of various sizes.

It's anyone's guess; it would be nice if Emma could tell me as much (in her German accent, which is how I imagine her to sound ). She has turned out to be the most frail of my three bunnies--shocking, considering that she tries to dominate everyone else in the house. :?

Another option is that depending on the size of her poo, and how small it is, it might be that that is normal for her, and the bigger ones are actually the abnormal ones (just to throw something else into the mix).

Unfortunately, that's not the case. The larger ones have been her staple up until her first stasis bout. Basically, the smaller fecals are about half the size of her normal ones; yet their moisture content (not to be gross) remains normal.

...You need to look after yourself in order to be able to look after them, and looking after yourself will also mean you will be a better rabbit owner too, because you will be more balanced. If you chose to ignore your problems and not get help and you couldn't cope with the buns, as unfortunate as it is, that would be your fault, however, if you do everything you can to help yourself, then that wouldn't be an issue because then you have taken care of every aspect you can, which is all anyone can do.

It's that feeling that I should do everything in my power to help them that causes me additional stress (both in terms of emotions and finances). But, yes, I definitely need more balance in my life--including a good exercise (and possibly a meditation) routine to help ease stress.

Please let us know how you get on at the vets.

I will do so.

 

[Flashy]

I'm sorry, I really laughed at Emma having a German accent. Why is it German? And not American?

I guess the whole thing is about balancing things out, be it when to get vet help, when not to, when to look after yourself, etc.

It did occur to me, that you said you used Reglan. Now, I have no idea if this is relevant or not, and I know it's not a laxative, but when people over use/abuse laxatives their gut stops working as normal. If Emma has had it that much, do you think its possible her gut has become dependent on it? I have no idea if that's possible though.

If you ever need a chat, you know where I am, ok? Just a PM or e-mail away

Good luck tonight.

 

[Jenk]

Flashy wrote:

I'm sorry, I really laughed at Emma having a German accent. Why is it German? And not American?

Laugh away about it; I do. She's a sassy--even bossy--lil' bun. So I imagine that she has a German accent and carries a whip. (I call her Fraulein Emma when she's especially pushy/bossy.)

It did occur to me, that you said you used Reglan. Now, I have no idea if this is relevant or not, and I know it's not a laxative, but when people over use/abuse laxatives their gut stops working as normal. If Emma has had it that much, do you think its possible her gut has become dependent on it? I have no idea if that's possible though.

That's a current concern of mine.

For whatever reason, vets around my area seem to rely on motility drugs quite a bit. And with me feeling powerless much of the time (not knowing how long is "safe" to wait for Emma's gut to get going on its own), I've gone along with using such drugs. I don't like doing so. (Believe it or not, I'm leery of many "FDA-approved" drugs, which seem to cause more harm than good.)

If you ever need a chat, you know where I am, ok? Just a PM or e-mail away.

I will take you up on that offer.

 

[Flashy]

How did it go? How is Emma? How are you?

 

[Jenk]

Flashy wrote:

How did it go? How is Emma? How are you?

Sorry for the late update; last night was hectic from the time that I returned home from the vet's office.

The vet put Emmaon Baytril (for the possibility of bacterial build-up due to a slow-moving gut); Reglan (for the slow-moving gut); and Metacam. She got sub-Qs, and I'm to repeat them tonight (if her body's completely absorbed those given last night. (The question is: Can I manage to give them myself? Otherwise, I have to wait four hours' longer than I should until my hubby is home from class.)

Her reason for prescribing the meds. that she did is that Emma's gut sounds are pretty slow.

I know that many people here pooh-pooh the use of motility drugs. But when you have two bunnies whose guts just don't seem to want to move on their own (when they seem genetically predisposed to just stopping), sometimes the drugs are all that you have to keep them functioning. So I feel between a rock and a hard place, but I must forge ahead with what I have.

I still feel at my wit's end because Zoe may still need to have another fecal culture soon. (She seems bigger in the gut/cecum area than she's been in the past after treatment.) Yet, she's still active and eating/drinking normally. So who knows?

 

[kirst3buns]

I must confess to also being a nervous wreck when my rabbits show any signs of heading toward stasis. However, I also think this helps to avoid any full-blown stasis issues.

The minute I notice any less activity or smaller poos, I start pushing the water by adding a second bowl with a few drops of no-sugar added cranberry juice (still has natural sugars in it but less than the cocktail stuff). I also start pushing canned pumpkin twice daily (1 teaspoon to just less than a tablespoon). I also continue to give them their leafy greens and take away the pellets. Always plenty of hay of course. I don't start panicing until they stop eating. Then I start to think about a vet visit.

The rabbit vet I go to is about a 30-40 minute drive and the really good rabbit savvy vet is only there a few days a week. Therefore, I've been forced to really do things on my own. He has given me reglan and metacam to keep on hand but I have never given the reglan without him checking first. However, the most recent episode of not eating, I gave metacam and gas meds for 2 days. That got me through the holiday weekend and by Sunday, everything was back to normal.

I also have given sub-q fluids. I'd have to say that when my rabbit was at her worst and not eating anything on her own, the sub-q fluids helped more than anything else. I have a neighbor who is an Emergency Medical Tech who was willing to help me the first few times and it really works great. However, I wouldn'tuse it forsmall poops as long as your rabbit is still eating. As long as something is going in and something is coming out, I try to refrain from interfering too much unless they are obviously in pain/discomfort. Then if they are still eating and pooing, I will give simethicone and occasionally metacam.

I know my rabbit gets more stressed when I try to force things and sometimes its actually better if I just put in wet greens and pumpkin and leave the room. I almost think it is better that I have to go to work and can't be around to hover when they are not feeling the greatest. I think rabbits can sense stress in their humans. If they are really not feeling well, I can run home at lunch and do what I need to do. I also have that wonderful neighbor who will check on them during the day and has no problem giving them medicine so working is doable, even with an under-the-weather pet.

Sorry to ramble on so much. I usually read your posts because I've hadseveral stasis issues with Penny (my lop) and it helps to hear what others are trying, but I haven't been on RO much because of the holiday. I hope some of my rambling is useful to you.

 

[Jenk]

kirst3buns wrote:

I must confess to also being a nervous wreck when my rabbits show any signs of heading toward stasis. However, I also think this helps to avoid any full-blown stasis issues.

It's the frequency of this issue that has my stomach in knots. How can one breathe, when you're always wondering, When will the next stasis bout occur? (I'm talking anywhere from 2-6 weeks' time.)

The minute I notice any less activity or smaller poos, I start pushing the water by adding a second bowl with a few drops of no-sugar added cranberry juice (still has natural sugars in it but less than the cocktail stuff). I also start pushing canned pumpkin twice daily (1 teaspoon to just less than a tablespoon). I also continue to give them their leafy greens and take away the pellets. Always plenty of hay of course. I don't start panicing until they stop eating. Then I start to think about a vet visit.

The problem (for me) is that Emma's gut simply seems to slow downpretty severely at the drop of a hat. (She doesn't eat pellets; I don't change her diet much; and she has plenty of timothy hay 24/7.) Even brushing her repeatedly doesn't seem to help much.

At this point, she was eating somewhat less (hay, at least). I don't feel that I have much room to "play" with her; once she feels a twinge of discomfort, she shuts down. Period. So I hate waiting until that point, in case the vet isn't available until 1-2 days' later. (I can't keep plunking down $500-$750 to have a rabbit hospitalized; it's madness to me.)

The rabbit vet I go to is about a 30-40 minute drive and the really good rabbit savvy vet is only there a few days a week. Therefore, I've been forced to really do things on my own. He has given me reglan and metacam to keep on hand but I have never given the reglan without him checking first. However, the most recent episode of not eating, I gave metacam and gas meds for 2 days. That got me through the holiday weekend and by Sunday, everything was back to normal.

With Emma's gut slowing so frequently, though, a build-up of bacteria is an underlying concern.That's another reason that the vet wants to use Reglan at the moment (to move the ingesta through her digestive tract and a normal rate of speed while she's being treated for a possible bacterial infection due to the slowdown).

Again, I hateresorting to motility drugs and don't know if they're part ofthe cause of repeated stasis issues.But my choices are limited, if I don't want her repeatedly hospitalized.

I also have given sub-q fluids. I'd have to say that when my rabbit was at her worst and not eating anything on her own, the sub-q fluids helped more than anything else....I wouldn'tuse it forsmall poops as long as your rabbit is still eating. As long as something is going in and something is coming out, I try to refrain from interfering too much unless they are obviously in pain/discomfort.

So, in your experience, sub-Qs aren't given until therabbitdeclines food? I don't know ifmy heart can handle waiting that long. (Again, I'm operating under the fear of having to again hospitalize a rabbit, which isjusttoo dang expensive.)

I know my rabbit gets more stressed when I try to force things and sometimes its actually better if I just put in wet greens and pumpkin and leave the room. I almost think it is better that I have to go to work and can't be around to hover when they are not feeling the greatest. I think rabbits can sense stress in their humans. If they are really not feeling well, I can run home at lunch and do what I need to do. I also have that wonderful neighbor who will check on them during the day and has no problem giving them medicine so working is doable, even with an under-the-weather pet.

I agree that being away from them helps to dissipate human stress. (Out-of-sight = partially out-of-mind.) But once I return to work, no one will be able to stop home in the afternoons; and I don't have a neighbor who can medicate/check-up on my bunnies. That thought has me a bit uptight.

I hope some of my rambling is useful to you.

I don't mind rambling; I appreciate hearing others' stories and learning of their experiences.

 

[kirst3buns]

So, in your experience, sub-Qs aren't given until therabbitdeclines food? I don't know ifmy heart can handle waiting that long. (Again, I'm operating under the fear of having to again hospitalize a rabbit, which isjusttoo dang expensive.)

My rabbits don't go downhill fast, so my situation isa bit different. If they start declining food, then I start more serious interventions. If they are still eating, I can usually get them back on track by pushing pumpkin and cranberry flavored water. When I had to give Sub-q fluids, Penny was not eating on her own and not drinking either. I was doing critical care syringe feedings, reglan and metacam. I still think it wasn't enough to give her an appetite on her own though. Someone on the forum suggested I ask the vet about sub-q fluids and have them teach me and also it had been a couple of days at that point. She really perked up after a couple doses of sub-q fluids. They also recommended a vitamin b shot which the vet also gave her. I think that's what helped me get her back on track. They offered to hospitalize her but really advised me to do the sub-q myself at home if I could so as to cause her less stress. I was totally stressed about the sub-q fluids, but after a couple of times, I got over it. It really seemed to help her and it didn't seem to bother her as much as me syringe feeding the critical care did.

 

[Jenk]

kirst3buns wrote:

My rabbits don't go downhill fast, so my situation isa bit different. If they start declining food, then I start more serious interventions.

For all I know, more serious (at-home) interventions might help her; but I'm still so knee-jerk leery at this point. (It's been almost 1.5 years' worth of nothing but health issues.)

If they are still eating, I can usually get them back on track by pushing pumpkin and cranberry flavored water. When I had to give Sub-q fluids, Penny was not eating on her own and not drinking either.

My concern is that Emma's gut simply doesn't function normally on its own. (It did at one time, or so it seemed.) So I don't know that mechanical means (e.g., extra-wet, leafy greens, pumpkin, etc.) is enough. The concern is that bacteria will build with as slowly as her gut tends to get at times. (Last night, the vet said that her gut sounded at a rate of about once per minute!)

They offered to hospitalize her but really advised me to do the sub-q myself at home if I could so as to cause her less stress. I was totally stressed about the sub-q fluids, but after a couple of times, I got over it. It really seemed to help her and it didn't seem to bother her as much as me syringe feeding the critical care did.

Ironically,my hubby has class tonight; so I won't have his help to administer sub-Qs (unless I wait four hours' later than I should, from the time thatEmma got them yesterday).I do have onepossible resource, butI'd still have to drive Emma to that person's location.(It'seither that, or I drive her to the vet's office for help, which is another option.) The third option is that I do it myself, but I've only inserted sub-Qs twice before and don't feel confident enough to attempt itentirely solo.

 

[Flashy]

I have to be honest, I am a tad concerned about the fact you were given Baytril. This can upset the gut further, and it is symptomatic again of using it when it's not necessarily needed which is what is rendering it useless.

Do you give them bene-bac or anything in their water?

I understand that you know they go downhill fast, but I also think its important to be aware that small poo doesn't necessarily mean they will go into full blown stasis. I have seen small poo more than I can count yet have never had a full blowm bout of stasis.

If her gut has becoming used to Reglan and so is not functioning properly, maybe she needs to be very gradually weaned off it as opposed to just stopping, which should hopefully allow her gut to make a good transition to be able to function without it.

 

[Jenk]

Flashy wrote:

...I am a tad concerned about the fact you were given Baytril. This can upset the gut further, and it is symptomatic again of using it when it's not necessarily needed which is what is rendering it useless.

Ironically, the vet stressed that she dislikes using antibiotics in general (but, of course, will when necessary). In this case, the slowness of Emma's gut has likely already started a bacterial build-up.

I did ask her about doing a fecal culture (God help me for nearly padding my own bill), but she said that she's fairly confident that a culture would reveal an imbalance of some sort.

In the past, Baytril has been used a number of times for both of my girls (under another rabbit-savvy vet's care).

What concerns me is the idea that I may just one day snap over this issue; so many people hold differing opinions on how to treat it. Even the "experts" have differing opinions. It's as if there's no safe place to fall, no one whom can be 100% trusted to be prescribing the "right" treatment.

Do you give them bene-bac or anything in their water?

She gets an enzyme-probiotic compound on her greens. (My other girl is currently on Bene-Bac and may be long-term.)

I understand that you know they go downhill fast, but I also think its important to be aware that small poo doesn't necessarily mean they will go into full blown stasis. I have seen small poo more than I can count yet have never had a full blowm bout of stasis.

It's the slowness of her gut sounds that concerns the vet, though. Even if she was pooping less because she was eating a bit less hay, her gut isn't chugging along at a normal rate.

If her gut has becoming used to Reglan and so is not functioning properly, maybe she needs to be very gradually weaned off it as opposed to just stopping, which should hopefully allow her gut to make a good transition to be able to function without it.

That's what we're doing with my other girl's current Reglan treatment: tapering her off of it; I'm going to suggest to the vet that we do the same for Emma.

Still, I suspect another issue (possibly just genetic) that causes her gut to slow on its own. It certainly did so prior to Reglan ever being used. So even if the drug makes her gut less independent, I suspect that something else (that tests can't seem to uncover) is going on.

 

[Flashy]

You are so right, there is no 100% backed opinion. Everyone needs to find their own way to deal with that, be it trusting themselves, a vet, a majority of people, etc, and find whatworks for them. If that means trusting your vet then that is understandable (I'm not saying you shouldn't, I am just leery of a lot of vets, that's all).

I hope that this all helps Emma, and you

 

[Jenk]

Flashy wrote:

...Everyone needs to find their own way to deal with that, be it trusting themselves, a vet, a majority of people, etc, and find whatworks for them. If that means trusting your vet then that is understandable (I'm not saying you shouldn't, I am just leery of a lot of vets, that's all).

The problem is, I've yet to find my own way--after nearly 1.5 years' time. It seems to me that there'll never be a clear-cut treatment plan.

Believe it or not, I'm also leery of a lot of vets. (The one to whom I was regularly taking my bunnies is an exotics-only specialist who sees lots of rabbits. He also lectures at the national level.) And if he can't pinpoint a problem (after I've spent $4,700 at his hospital), I feel that the situation is nearly hopeless.

Right now, Emma's passing some more normal-sized fecals. After only two Reglan doses, I wonder if it's the sub-Qs that are making the biggest difference. But since I've already started the drug, I should at least finish/taper it off. (Same thing goes for the Baytril, of which I've already given her two doses' worth. I'll at least continue her on her enzyme-probiotic in the hopes that it helps to keep things somewhat balanced.)

I hope that this all helps Emma, and you.

I'm fearful that there is no definitive help. I feel like this situation is doomed to keep repeating itself.

The vet did say that if/when this situation occurs again, I can certainly try just sub-Qs to see what difference they may make.

 

[Flashy]

If it is the subQ doing it, then you can have all that ready at home to sort it as soon as it arises, so the first sing of small poos, do the sub Q and it could sort it, you just never know. I know Randy promotes them highly, and he doesn't say things lightly, so it may be worth a shot. It may be that that becomes your treatment plan.

After only owning rabbit for a year and a half that's not really a long time, so you can't be expected to be an expert on how to deal with situations and such like, but each time this happens you will learn a bit more.

The fact you feel it is 'doomed' is not a good thing for many reasons, but it means it could be a self fulfilling prophecy because your anxiety and stress could potentially push her into it. Maybe if you start to find ways to deal with it, like Sub Q fluidss, if it happens, it may be far less stressful for you and her, and will just become part of normal daily life. When Sweep was terminally ill it was a drain to start with but then as we got into a routine and what things to do if certain things happen, it was not as hard on us all. Maybe when things start to become easier to deal with, it might be like that with you.

 

[Jenk]

Flashy wrote:

If it is the subQ doing it, then you can have all that ready at home to sort it as soon as it arises, so the first sing of small poos, do the sub Q and it could sort it, you just never know. I know Randy promotes them highly, and he doesn't say things lightly, so it may be worth a shot. It may be that that becomes your treatment plan.

The next time that she develops small fecals, I'll call the vet and ask if it's a good time to try them. (I don't like treating with anything without consulting the vet--unless it's Simethicone or a low-dose of Metacam.)

After only owning rabbit for a year and a half that's not really a long time, so you can't be expected to be an expert on how to deal with situations and such like, but each time this happens you will learn a bit more.

It seems that, even with experts' help, I've bounced around so much with treatment options.

Maybe if you start to find ways to deal with it, like Sub Q fluids, if it happens, it may be far less stressful for you and her, and will just become part of normal daily life.... Maybe when things start to become easier to deal with, it might be like that with you.

That's my hope; only time will tell.

 

[Maureen Las]

I hope that your "national" exotics vet is not from Midwest exotics in the western suburbs of Chicago. ..........

I read your etherbun post and am surprised that you did not respond to Rami's suggestions thatEmma could have parasites. It is easy to treat for worms and something that none of us thought of.

Rami is an exotics vet in Europe and knows his stuff. it is cheap and painless to treat for parasites whether fecals show anything or not.

I had a shelter rabbit with a tapeworm ..that showed no parasites on a fecal.

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

I read your etherbun post and am surprised that you did not respond to Rami's suggestions thatEmma could have parasites. It is easy to treat for worms and something that none of us thought of.

Rami is an exotics vet in Europe and knows his stuff. it is cheap and painless to treat for parasites whether fecals show anything or not.

I had a shelter rabbit with a tapeworm ..that showed no parasites on a fecal.

I did reply to him, but personally. (I didn't know until now that he's a vet. :shock That would explain why he completely understood when I told him that one vet held off on treatment for parasites because blood work didn't indicate any parasitic activity.

Still, I'm open to talking with the current vet about at least trying it.

Both girls are together in the evenings (separated by day); you'd think that the other bun would show more regular signs of parasites. (Actually, she does seem gassy right now--i.e., larger in the gut. My hubby's gonna flip if she requires more tests anytime soon, and I don't blame him....) I dunno anymore...

 

[Maureen Las]

If parasitic activity is high the eosinophil count usually will be elevated. I don't know if this is always the case.

Rami is extremely knowledgeable..a disabled exotics vet who has devoted himself to help rabbits on-line

 

[Jenk]

angieluv wrote:

If parasitic activity is high the eosinophil count usually will be elevated. I don't know if this is always the case.

Rami is extremely knowledgeable..a disabled exotics vet who has devoted himself to help rabbits on-line

Yes, that term now rings a bell: eosinophil....I believe that's what the vet said should be elevated in the case of parasitic activity. But who knows anymore?

I may have to pick Rami's brain a bit more; I could really use some additional help before I truly reach my breaking point....