Is this cage ok ?

[Blue eyes]

wendymac wrote:

This is from ARBA:

And here's the link to the entire article:
http://arba.net/PDFs/CAW.pdf

By contrast, the House Rabbit Society has the following recommendations:

"Bigger is better! A cage should be at least 4 times the size of your bunny when he's entirely stretched out--more if he is confined for a large amount of the day. Cage sizes also should be decided in conjunction with the amount of exercise time and space the rabbit has. One guideline to go by is at least 8 square feet of cage time combined with at least at least 24 square feet of exercise space, for 1-2 rabbits, in which the rabbit(s) can run and play at least 5 hours per day. You can build or buy your rabbit a two-storey "condo" with the floors connected by a ramp--they love this!" http://rabbit.org/faq/sections/housing.html



@Samara, easy mistake on math! I think you were thinking 4 feet square (which would be a cage 4 feet wide by 4 ft wide, or 16 sq ft) instead of 4 sq. ft.

 

[wendymac]

My question is: How did the House Rabbit Society come up with their cage recommendations??? Did they have any scientific data, or just what the majority felt was needed?
Do they have any scientific data, at all, about anything on their site?

As for levels, that's debatable. Rabbits are horizontal creatures, not vertical ones. They certainly aren't hopping up onto big rocks and other objects in the wild. Plus, as Karen pointed out, they can fall and injure themselves.

Show me ONE video where a rabbit plays for 5 hours. I mean playing, not hopping a bit and then laying down and sleeping.

Just because something is on the internet doesn't mean it's the end-all/be-all.

Me? I'm content with the ARBA's guidelines, along with some free time in an Xpen. But certainly not 5 hours a day.

****edited because it's hard to type while holding a conversation with a 14 yr. old girl yakking in your ear. LOL*****

 

[MiniLopHop]

Of my four rabbits the smallest is the only one that is really active. He's only 3 pounds but loves to run and run until he crashes. Even he will flat out run for only about an hour before he sleeps. It is funny to see the cat and rabbit doing their loops around the house.

 

[Watermelons]

Point blank. All animals need space.

Wendy you are comparing "breeder" standards to "pet" standards. You cant expect every pet owner to keep their rabbits in the same cages you will see in large breeding operations which are what the ARBA's chart is more designed for. You also have to account for litter boxes, bowls, water, houses, hay, etc. This all takes away from floor space. Just because an animal CAN live in certain conditions doesn't mean they should.

We need better standards for our pets as well as rabbits in breeding operations. 1.5 square feet is disgustingly small for a rabbit even if it is under 4lbs. Lets trap all adults in a 6x3' bathroom for life and see how well they do, hey they have enough room to lie down and take a few steps thats all they need right? If they want exercise they can jog on the spot.

 

[wendymac]

First, going on weight, my square footage requirements would be a bit more than that. LMAO

The OP posted a photo of her cage and her bunny. The setup is perfectly fine for the size of the rabbit, plus it'll get out time. Then, from what I can piece together, Zrabbits stated that her rabbits lived in cages like those and were fine. Then someone else (Nelson's Mom?) started with all the house rabbit society stuff. All I did was show the MINIMUM space requirements that is REQUIRED.

I think a lot of pet people might actually send their animals to a shelter when they see the House Rabbit Society's site and how much space they NEED.

As I stated before, if the rabbit has ample space to move around, and gets time out for exercise, they really don't need an enormous cage. And that's my opinion, based on my personal observations with my rabbits.

As for breeding operations, space will ALWAYS be an issue for 99% of the people breeding (whether commercial or hobby). I'm only limited on how quickly I can build more cages or buy them pre-made. Not everyone has a big dairy barn, milk house, free-stall barn, large equipment shed etc. that they can expand in to. Would I like to see ALL rabbits with tons of room to run? Sure. Is that always feasible? No. And I can say, for my rabbits and their activity level, they spend 80% of their time sleeping.

My question still stands: How did the House Rabbit Society (or any other pet rabbit site) come up with what they say is the "minimum" cage size needed?

 

[Blue eyes]

wendymac wrote:

My question is: How did the House Rabbit Society come up with their cage recommendations??? Did they have any scientific data, or just what the majority felt was needed?
Do they have any scientific data, at all, about anything on their site?

Me? I'm content with the ARBA's guidelines, along with some free time in an Xpen. But certainly not 5 hours a day.

****edited because it's hard to type while holding a conversation with a 14 yr. old girl yakking in your ear. LOL*****

Funny on the editing.

I see no scientific data on the ARBA link either. Their guidelines are no more scientific than House Rabbit Society. So I guess it's a matter of picking your poison. I presented the other view for comparison purposes.

As far as amount of time "playing," of course they don't "play" non-stop. They go in spurts. But it's difficult for them to play when they want if they are only given a limited specific time slot. In that case, they must play when they are given opportunity and if they don't feel in the mood at that time, then too bad.

Over the years of keeping many house rabbits, I have come to increase my rabbits' time out of their cage. Now I keep the cage door open all day long (15 hours). One bun spends much of his time in his open cage, but when the mood strikes him, he runs around, somtimes full speed. I'm convinced that he would miss at least half of his exercise if I rationed his playtime to a couple hours.

Having them out this often has also allowed me to know them better. They have certain places in their roaming area that they go depending on their mood. There's the spot under the snake cage that says, "I'm just chillin but want to see what's going on." There's another corner spot that says,"I'm seriously resting now so leave me alone." And the pose in front of the TV cabinet that says,"I'm here so it's time for attention. Come pet me." It is these types of "communication" that I missed out on with some of my earlier rabbits that spent more time in their cages.

 

[wendymac]

Actually, they got their data from the Animal Welfare Act (which is right under the cages sizes). What about House Rabbit Society? What data did they use?

The whole point that seems to be missing is this: Every single person and every single rabbit are unique. Just because something works for one person/rabbit doesn't mean it'll work for every single rabbit out there in every single situation. Some people (like myself) are home 24/7. Other people have school, jobs, family commitments and aren't home as much.

Hell, I'd love to live in a huge, sprawling mansion. But I haven't found anyone to adopt me that can provide that. LOL

She's always yakking...it's all I can do not to groan when she starts a conversation with, "I had this dream..." because you can bet it's going to be a 3 hour tale. LOL I'm thankful that she talks to me...that all my kids talk to me. But sometimes I want to say, "Shhhh...enjoy the quiet." haha

 

[fantaysah]

I think a lot of people are overlooking a lot of things in this debate...
1- rabbits are unique with their own personalities, they will like different things and have different needs and what works for one will NOT work for every rabbit..

2- YES rabbits in the wild are horizontal animals... OUR pet rabbits enjoy their levels and hopping up on the couch for kisses (as a majority) OUR RABBITS AREN'T WILD!.. I understand that some traits will always remain but we breed and choose rabbits for qualities that make them good PETS. WILD rabbits for one are solitary creatures but our pet rabbits LOVE company (as a majority) whether it be from us or another rabbit. WILD rabbits don't go out and play or use toys they run and hide etc. out of necessity not out of joy... PET rabbits PLAY...

3- Dogs, cats or any other animal in the wild have huge amounts of space and their home ranges could be MILES but no one feels horribly at having a house cat or pet dog.. why is that? Animals adapt and have different wants and needs when they are PETS and not WILD. Whats wrong with smaller cages as long as a rabbit gets out some? Wouldnt a smaller cage fit in with what people are always screaming about rabbits> Wouldn't it mimic their burrows and make a rabbit less scared? do you realize that a rabbit burrows for around 20 hours a day in the WILD and never get too far from their home. If you think about it a cat having living in your house is cutting their home range area by way more than having your pet rabbit in a super pet cage from petsmart. As long as they have time to play/excersice then why is it bad?

I would like to have people think outside the box, stop letting other peoples research or lack thereof make you feel a certain way. Use common sense and try not to think that IF my rabbit was WILD it would be this standard or that because they aren't wild they are family members just like your dog/cat/kid.

I dont have any idea what kind of research they could possibly do to make a list of what size house your pet rabbit needs... I assume they didn't ASK the rabbit and I am also pretty sure they DIDN'T love and interact everyday with more than 100 rabbits for each breed and study them individually. That would take years to go through all the breeds etc. and having as much interaction as a pet rabbit does you wouldn't have time in a day to make the experiment controlled so I doubt that the research was done properly esp. considering that if you didn't choose 100 rabbits wouldn't the sample size be too small to be accurate anyhow...???

I am sorry if many of you disagree but THERE IS NO SET way to house your rabbit... THERE IS NO PERFECT HOUSE... THERE IS NO HOLY GRAIL OF RABBIT CONDOS and everyone just needs to judge the UNIQUE happiness of EACH bun!!!

 

[Blue eyes]

wendymac wrote:

Actually, they got their data from the Animal Welfare Act (which is right under the cages sizes). What about House Rabbit Society? What data did they use?

The whole point that seems to be missing is this: Every single person and every single rabbit are unique. Just because something works for one person/rabbit doesn't mean it'll work for every single rabbit out there in every single situation. Some people (like myself) are home 24/7. Other people have school, jobs, family commitments and aren't home as much.

Hell, I'd love to live in a huge, sprawling mansion. But I haven't found anyone to adopt me that can provide that. LOL

She's always yakking...it's all I can do not to groan when she starts a conversation with, "I had this dream..." because you can bet it's going to be a 3 hour tale. LOL I'm thankful that she talks to me...that all my kids talk to me. But sometimes I want to say, "Shhhh...enjoy the quiet." haha

Well, saying it's from the Animal Welfare Act doesn't really support your case. That's simply gov't regulation setting bare minimums for animal care so that the gov. and judgeshave some sort of tangible, objectivestandard by which to measure when "abuse" can be applied. (failing to meet "the minimum") . Again, someone applied their personal opinion to establish what they believed is reasonable minimum cage size. There's really nothing "scientific" about establishing cage size. And minimal simply means that - minimal. So again, the difference in cage size recommendation is still a matter of one opinion over another. The ARBA says,"this is the smallest cages can legally be," while HRS says, "larger cages arehealthier for rabbits."

The purpose of forums like this is for people to share ideas to improve the lives of their bunnies and to improve their lives with bunnies. I don't think any of us want to settle for "bare minimum" care for our furries. We want what's best. It's a good thing to want to improve our bunnies' condition. So if we can encourage each other to do just that, that is great.

Oh, and I totally understand the dreaded "I had a dream..." statement. Fortunately, I only have one left that hasn't outgrown that yet. I keep telling myself to "ok, focus...engage... show interest" :big wink:

 

[Nelsons_Mom]

I personally feel that the bigger the better. My guys are middle aged now (5 and 4) so they don't go as much as they used to, but they still greatly appreciate any time out.

One of the major things that I find preferable about having a larger cage is that most rabbits are most active at dusk and dawn. While most of us are home at dusk, I know I am not up at five and six in the morning to let them out to play! My rabbits can have some "zoomies" and binkies in their cage. Because of that, someone saying "oh, my bunnies mostly sleep during the day" if they take them out in the middle of the day isn't that compelling, since that is the time they are most likely to be naturally sleeping.

I understand that each individual has different situations regarding the amount of space in their home and the amount of space they are willing to dedicate to their animals (because it is a huge consideration). However, no one is forcing people to obtain rabbits. It is my belief that if you cannot provide a physically and mentally stimulating environment for an animal, then you shouldn't get one. I feel the same way about people who have a dog they leave crated for 8-10hrs a day or anyone who houses a mammal in an aquarium.

And, no disrespect, I don't find an Act that says it is okay to house anything bigger than a mouse in a cage that is 1.5 sq ft all that compelling.Heck, the minimum cage requirement for rats is 2sqft per rat! However, I do recognize that there are logistical differences between breeding and showing rabbits and pet standards (as much as that seems backwards in my mind). But, despite the fact that the House Rabbit Society does not use scientific evidence (to my knowledge) to defends its housing claims (because nutrition and medical care obviously have some grounding) I do not think that anyone could argue against that bunnies that have more room are more likely to exercise and bunnies who exercise more tend to lead healthier lives.

Also, for how popular rabbits are there is very few studies on them (unlike cats and dogs because of their popularity and rats because of their close link to the sciences.) I would doubt there was really ANY studies on housing for PET purposes. Most of those figures are for keeping large quantities of animals. Similar studies also say that it is acceptable to keep egg laying chickens in cages they cannot fully flap their wings.

 

[fantaysah]

See this is where i find the issue.. why do we have to be made to look bad or that we don't care about our buns if we are "bare minimum" owners? The person who decided that cage size has not been anywhere near my bun or my situation. Many times in this debate people have kinda stated to the effect that if we don't follow that we are bad pet owners and our rabbits are unhappy. Where's the research saying my rabbit isn't happy?

 

[fantaysah]

Nelsons_Mom wrote:

I would doubt there was really ANY studies on housing for PET purposes.

EXACTLY!! this is the biggest point of the day.. Its all opinion. My girls are both less than 2 lbs and share a 4x3 NIC but i did have them in the small cage... They did get the in routine with playing on allotted times and they are not MORE active at any specific point in time... Their activity levels are based on whether or not i am close to them. The closer i get the more ramped up they get and when i walk away they go sleep.

 

[Nelsons_Mom]

fantaysah wrote:

2- YES rabbits in the wild are horizontal animals... OUR pet rabbits enjoy their levels and hopping up on the couch for kisses (as a majority) OUR RABBITS AREN'T WILD!.. I understand that some traits will always remain but we breed and choose rabbits for qualities that make them good PETS. WILD rabbits for one are solitary creatures but our pet rabbits LOVE company (as a majority) whether it be from us or another rabbit. WILD rabbits don't go out and play or use toys they run and hide etc. out of necessity not out of joy... PET rabbits PLAY...

I would like to have people think outside the box, stop letting other peoples research or lack thereof make you feel a certain way. Use common sense and try not to think that IF my rabbit was WILD it would be this standard or that because they aren't wild they are family members just like your dog/cat/kid.

I think you might be confusing rabbits with hares (who do live solitary lives) wild rabbits live in HUGE warrens. They're hugely social creatures and DO live together and appreciate and PLAY with each other. We have a warren of wild rabbits living in my backyard and they're always binkying around and grooming each other and playing tag. I should really video tape it, it's adorable because accept for the physical appearance, it's just like watching my guys.

And I also disagree that there are such diverse qualifications between rabbits and I DEFINITELY disagree with allowing the average owner to make those choices. Keep in mind that most of us here are a lot more passionate about our rabbits care than the average person. There should be minimum cages for rabbits. Otherwise you get idiots who'll stick them in a ferret cage--or worse, a tank!

Most of the population still sees rabbits as a caged animal that doesn't do much, and if having high standards all over the internet discourages them as opposed to educating them to reevaluating their position and adapting their care, then thank goodness! I'd rather someone not own a pet at all than not do it properly. (Not that I feel that way about anyone here C: I've just seen too many idiots on my rat forum and know that there must be the same sort of injustice for rabbits.)

 

[wendymac]

fantaysah wrote:

See this is where i find the issue.. why do we have to be made to look bad or that we don't care about our buns if we are "bare minimum" owners? The person who decided that cage size has not been anywhere near my bun or my situation. Many times in this debate people have kinda stated to the effect that if we don't follow that we are bad pet owners and our rabbits are unhappy. Where's the research saying my rabbit isn't happy?

Exactly!!!

 

[Nelsons_Mom]

fantaysah wrote:

Nelsons_Mom wrote:

I would doubt there was really ANY studies on housing for PET purposes.

EXACTLY!! this is the biggest point of the day.. Its all opinion. My girls are both less than 2 lbs and share a 4x3 NIC but i did have them in the small cage... They did get the in routine with playing on allotted times and they are not MORE active at any specific point in time... Their activity levels are based on whether or not i am close to them. The closer i get the more ramped up they get and when i walk away they go sleep.

I think that cage is perfectly adequate for how small your girls are!

 

[Samara]

fantaysah wrote:

See this is where i find the issue.. why do we have to be made to look bad or that we don't care about our buns if we are "bare minimum" owners? The person who decided that cage size has not been anywhere near my bun or my situation. Many times in this debate people have kinda stated to the effect that if we don't follow that we are bad pet owners and our rabbits are unhappy. Where's the research saying my rabbit isn't happy?

:yeahthat:

I think society needs to set standards for non-animal lovers who "have" to share their space with pets for whatever reason. It's sort of like taking a doctor saying 2000 calories a day for the human body, but what about XYZ person who has this and that reason for needing more or less?

Standards should be seen as guidelines, not the end all be all.

I only have the huge NIC pen because I wanted to build something and be proud of it. Yeah it gives my buns more room to dance around when they want, but it's selfishly something that *I* want to find asthetically pleasing because I have to look at it a lot.

That does *not* mean that just because I want something to look nice by my standards that I would squander the animal that actually has to *live* in it - please do not interpret that to be what I'm saying.

I am saying that I like to find the middle ground of what is acceptable for *my* rabbits to be happy and healthy and also something that is easy for me to clean and be happy with. Let's face it, a hard to clean cage is a cage that will likely not be cleaned often for the less than dedicated pet goer. Think about it - if you have a cage that was hard to get into and clean, wouldn't you be discouraged to clean it? A small store cage or a hutch by comparison is easier to clean, so it spurs the owner on to clean it frequently because it doesn't take much effort.

Humans are generally programmed to find the easiest, most effective way to do something. If you can really get down and clean a cage, that in my opinion is the cage to go with because you're able to keep up with it.

I like the NIC pens because I can constantly change things and make their environment more stimulating. I can't provide them a forest or an underground burrow personally, but I can give them neat toys and a decent place to live.

I have the big condo in hopes that I can bond all 6 rabbits, or a majority of them, into it. I'll be adding levels and what not of course, but I built it big with the future in mind.

Heck, Starling is an English Lop mix but is already looking to be Atticus' size or larger by some incredible feat.

I think if people are willing to come to this forum and seek out our advice the last thing we should be doing is telling them they're screw ups and how could they use such housing - I think we should share what *we* use and *why* and be there for questions and answers.

I know if I have a big change to make if I have others to help walk me through it without making me feel like I'm loser I'm more inclined to come back for help and be more amicable to change.

That whole catch more flies with honey than vinegar saying, you know?

Standards are standards. Use them or not. If *you* know and your vet agrees that your rabbit is reaching its full life potential, then ignore the others in your face saying "How could you?"

 

[wendymac]

Nelsons_Mom wrote:

I personally feel that the bigger the better. My guys are middle aged now (5 and 4) so they don't go as much as they used to, but they still greatly appreciate any time out.

I understand that each individual has different situations regarding the amount of space in their home and the amount of space they are willing to dedicate to their animals (because it is a huge consideration). However, no one is forcing people to obtain rabbits. It is my belief that if you cannot provide a physically and mentally stimulating environment for an animal, then you shouldn't get one. I feel the same way about people who have a dog they leave crated for 8-10hrs a day or anyone who houses a mammal in an aquarium.

And, no disrespect, I don't find an Act that says it is okay to house anything bigger than a mouse in a cage that is 1.5 sq ft all that compelling.Heck, the minimum cage requirement for rats is 2sqft per rat! However, I do recognize that there are logistical differences between breeding and showing rabbits and pet standards (as much as that seems backwards in my mind). But, despite the fact that the House Rabbit Society does not use scientific evidence (to my knowledge) to defends its housing claims (because nutrition and medical care obviously have some grounding) I do not think that anyone could argue against that bunnies that have more room are more likely to exercise and bunnies who exercise more tend to lead healthier lives.

This is your OPINION. This isn't fact. I am awake when rabbits are more prone to playing (I'm usually not even heading to bed until 3 or 4 am). The kids are up early. No matter WHEN some rabbits are let out, some still only do a little hopping and then sleep. So you can't base your experience with a few rabbits on everyone else's rabbits.

I honestly feel that some go way overboard on their rabbit's "housing", almost like they're trying to 1 up someone else. As long as the rabbit can move around, it gets feed, water, and a place to exercise (Xpen or whatever) then it's fine. To say that anyone without a room (or entire house) devoted to 1 rabbit is doing their rabbit a disservice is wrong.

It's one thing to tell someone, "That's nice. But if it were me, I'd..." and quite another to say, "That's horrible, it's garbage, ditch it and do it my way."

 

[wendymac]

Well said, Sammy!! When I first joined this forum, people were very helpful without condemning. They gave their advice, and the reasons behind it. It seems like, lately, it's more about condemning then helping.

Any time I've answered any questions, I've said, "I do" or "This is what I've done" and explain.

I think everyone just needs to take a big, deep breath...and realize we're ALL here to learn and offer what works for each of us.

 

[Samara]

wendymac wrote:

Well said, Sammy!! When I first joined this forum, people were very helpful without condemning. They gave their advice, and the reasons behind it. It seems like, lately, it's more about condemning then helping.

Any time I've answered any questions, I've said, "I do" or "This is what I've done" and explain.

I think everyone just needs to take a big, deep breath...and realize we're ALL here to learn and offer what works for each of us.

:yeahthat: :thumbup

I would love to see more nurturing banter around the forum; I'm taking my big, deep breath now!

 

[wendymac]

:clapping: :big wink: