I need opinions, please

[pamnock]

What a sad experience Ithink you are right in expecting a refund for a rabbit with acongenital deformity. Because of the cost of shipping himback, I'm not sure how far the breeder would be willing to go to coverboth the cost of the rabbit and the shipping.Unless you are willing to go to court, you may be out some money.

Weak ankles are listed as a breed fault in the Standard for EnglishLops (indicating this is probably a problem seen in thebreed). Good width between the hocks is specified in thebreed standard itself -- indicatingthat"cowhocks"may be a problem with the breed. Thedeformity of pigeon breast is also noted (again -- a problem seen inthis breed). All of the above are general faults or DQs for*all* breeds, but you often see specific mention of these conformationdefects in the breeds where it is more common.

Since the surgery is so expensive, I would persue supportivecare. Anti-inflammatories, pain management and limitingactivity can be helpful in making him morecomfortable.

How to make the best of this? Perhaps Raph is with you for areason -- and you can give this sweet guy the wonderful life hedeserves. I'm hoping this story will have a happy ending.:4hearts::4hearts::4hearts:

Pam

 

[sfritzp]

I just went back and looked at your wonderful photos of Raph. What a hunny.
But - what I don't understand - he was binkying around - ifhe had a genetic problm with the legs, why didn't he exhibit it (to thedegree he is now) before? Wouldn't he have been in constant pain? Andif the breeder had such a good reputation, wouldn't she have noticedsomething as serious as this? Would she risk her reputation by shippinga 'defective' bun? This just doesnt make sence to me...
Did the vet take Xrays? How can he be sure about this patellar luxationwithout xrays? Could he possibly have hurt himself jumping around inhis new home?
Any chance you can get a second opnion? The fact that the vet did a'quick exam' and just dismissed it to improper breeding doesn't setwell with me... Does the vet have issues with breeders?
Perhaps Raph needs a very comprehensive exam. He deserves that much.And you - since you cared enough to get him to a vet as soon as you did- deserve to get the service that you paid the vet for.
I really feel badly about this... Raph (I often invoke the Angel ofHealing myself) has touched my heart - and I just know he is a veryspecial bun - and will touch everyone he encounters...I will pray thatthis vet is WRONG and this is a minor problem that can be fixed, and/orwill not affect his breeding possibilities.
May St Raphael be HIS guardian angel.

 

[pamnock]

sfritzp wrote:

I will pray that this vet is WRONG and this is aminor problem that can be fixed, and/or will not affect his breedingpossibilities.
May St Raphael be HIS guardian angel.

It was hard to tell from the photos, but Bassetluv noticed the defectright away and the fact that it appears to be causing Raphdiscomfort. Wish it were not so, but the defect appears to berather obvious. I don't think the x-rays or anothervetare necessary to prove that his front and back legs arevery splayed. I would not recommend Raph for breeding, but Ibelieve he will be able to live out his life as a pet.



Pam

 

[sfritzp]

Oh but Pam - he was named after the Archangel Rapheal!!
Ya gotta believe! :angel:
Yes I know Bassetluv senced something was wrong right away - but wouldthe bun been able to binky with this condition? I really don't know -but I am going to do some research on this.
He will certainly be a wonderful pet - I think he is already proving that! He sounds like an absolute doll!

 

[pamnock]

Binkys could most certainly be done. Possibly resulted in some inflammationand pain.

There are varying degrees of the congenital deformities of the legs.

Supportive treatment can go a long way in improving the quality of his life and enjoying him as a pet.

Pam

 

[Bassetluv]

Well, I just finished replying to the breederagain. She was not Raph's original breeder; that much I knew when Ibought him. She purchased him and a few others from another breeder whowas getting out of the business, and she swears she didn't know he hadthis condition. She has offered to compensate by sending me anotherElop as soon as one is ready to go...she does have another line ofElops who came from a breeder in the US, and they are totally unrelatedto Raph. As far as shipping costs, it was hard to tell from thewording; I don't get the feeling she was offering to pay for that aswell. If she doesn't, well, I will just have to bite the bullet on that.

Since the surgery is so expensive, I would persue supportivecare. Anti-inflammatories, pain management and limiting activity can behelpful in making him more comfortable.

Pam, thank you so much for posting this (as well as the other info onEnglish lops). The breeder asked me not to ship Raph back to her (whichI really did not want to do anyway) as she didn't want to put himthrough the stress again...hence her offer to replace him.I had decided to keep Raph and make him as comfortable aspossible. The surgery is not feasible right now, though perhaps in thefuture I could consider it. I hadn't discussed much with my vet aboutwhat could be done for Raph other than surgery as I needed to talk tothe breeder...so it is comforting to know that there are most likelyoptions for him.

 

[pamnock]

I can understand that the breeder can't affordto include shipping with another rabbit. It was nice that shemade the offer to send another.

I think Raph's in the right place and I look forward to hearing themany stories of his life adventures. Enjoy your bunny -- he'svery special :inlove:



Pam

 

[Bassetluv]

Oh, I just posted the last thing I wrote whilein the midst of corresponding back and forth with the breeder. I askedher about compensation, and she is willing to send another bunny onceone comes available, and cover the cost of shipping. So hopefully thiswill all work out.

As for Raph, I am going to keep him as comfortable as possible andspeak to my vet about a plan of action for controlling the condition(thank you so much for the info Pam!).
sfritzp, my vet didn't take xrays because he wanted me to contact thebreeder first before taking any further steps. He showed me a model ofa rabbit's leg joint, then had me feel the area in both of Raph's hindlegs and explained how they should feel, as opposed to how theyactually did feel. He also showed me how easily they slip out of joint(boy did I wince at that...poor Raph). He suggested that I might wantto send Raph back to the breeder, since I had paid for a healthyrabbit, so he didn't want to burden me with the cost of xrays if itturned out Raph was to be returned.

Right now I am feeling quite a bit better, because Raphael is stayinghere with me...I will find out what can be done to manage his conditionand take it from there. As far as compensation, the breeder is beingvery good...she is offering full compensation with a rabbit fromanother line, along with shipping...and you know, at this point thatdoesn't even matter to me so much. It did when I first posted, but nowthat there is hope for Raph having a chance at a comfortable life, Ifeel so relieved. I guess that was all that really mattered...

Thank you all so much for your support and suggestions...it really has touched my heart.

~Di

rangepansy:

 

[TinysMom]

Bassetluv wrote:

now that there is hope for Raph having a chance ata comfortable life, I feel so relieved. I guess that was all thatreally mattered...

Thank you all so much for your support and suggestions...it really has touched my heart.

~Di

rangepansy:

First of all, I know you originally wanted ONE rabbit - but the factyou are willing to take care of a special needs rabbit - while stilleventually getting a HEALTHY one...really speaks a lot to me about yourcharacter and convictions.

I'm so happy for your bunny....because he is in a home where he will be loved...even if he's imperfect....as so many of us are!

Peg

 

[pamnock]

Di,

I know the shock at first can be rather upsetting. It helpsto talk these problems through and consider all your options.

I think you're making the right decision and have handled this very well and

I'm glad things are working out so well -- Raph has such agood home. He's a beautiful rabbit and you are doing theright thing :heart:

Kudos to the breeding for her generous offer of covering shipping and offering to send another rabbit!



Pam

 

[Bassetluv]

Well, all I can say at this point is howfortunate I was to discover this forum and all of you. If I hadn't hadyou guys to talk to about this, I would have been going crazy. SeeingRaph in pain was hard to take, finding out what was wrong with him washard, and the whole experience had shaken me up. But now I feel thereis hope for him...it's amazing just how quickly one can fall in lovewith an animal...and my fears have lessened. And yes, the breeder isbeing excellent with all of this...I do have to say I am impressed withher.

Did I tell you all about the moment I first saw Raphael at the airport?The baggage handler came out and put the carrier on the counter,announcing, 'Here you are...one fat bunny' (tho Raph is hardlyfat...lol). I looked into his crate and saw the most beautiful eyepeering out at me. I felt his presence, and he did give off the aura ofa very special creature. I do believe he came into my life for areason...absolutely.

Thank you all so much for your help and support....it has been so appreciated...

And now I am off to bed...I am exhausted...

~Di

 

[naturestee]

I'm so glad you're keeping him! He's abeaut, no matter what his problems! I know I have seenmentions on caring for splay-legged rabbits in foster homes andsuch. Maybe you could contact some of the localshelters/rabbit rescues and see if anyone has experience?They might be able to offer some good advice.

 

[Bassetluv]

Thanks naturestree, I will do that. I do knowthatRaph will have to have solid, non-slippery surfaces, andI imagine I will have to watch him in case he decides to become tooactive. Right now he's pretty quiet; his right hind leg is stillsplayed out. Last evening when I brought him back from the vet heseemed to be in a bit of distress, as he was stretched out and wouldn'tmove once I put him in his cage. (All of the poking and prodding duringthe exam hurt!) But when I fed him a couple of hours later his appetitewas certainly there, and this morning he was up and about...though hecannot really control that one leg too well. He came over to me andlicked my hand (first time he's done that), and then began 'nudging' mewith his nose.

This has been really draining emotionally, but he and I will get through it...

 

[CorkysMom]

He's lucky to have you and he knows it...thats why he kissed you this morning..

 

[Carolyn]

What an ordeal you and your little one have beenthrough, Bassetluv. The two of you are most certainly in mythoughts and prayers.

Not knowing how much your little one weighs, I know that for a 4 lb.bunny, you can give it 1 to 2 baby aspirins (81-162 mg.) for painrelief. Of course, I'd start out with one and see how it goesand then go to two. Can't recall how old the little one is.

As Pamnock said in the enzymes post, there is evidence however, thatthese enzymes may have anti-inflammatoryproperties.You might want to look into that.

Will keep praying.

ray:

-Carolyn

 

[LuvaBun]

Oh Bassetluv, my heart goes out to you and Raph.I agree with Pam, I think that Raph came to you for a reason and I amso pleased he has such a kind, loving mom to care for him. I know itisn't the situation that you would have wanted, but I am sure thatRaph's love will make for a happy ending. He really is such a gorgeousboy. My best wishes to you both.

Jan

 

[sfritzp]

pamnock wrote:

Binkys could most certainly be done. Possibly resulted in some inflammationand pain.

There are varying degrees of the congenital deformities of the legs.

Supportive treatment can go a long way in improving the quality of his life and enjoying him as a pet.

Pam

I've read up on patellar luxation, and that there are different degrees of it...
It struck me though, that the breeder didn't realize Raph had it - andthat it really came to the forefront after he was 'binkying' for joy -knowing that he was in a loving atmosphere! Perhaps that was the firstbinky of his life!

 

[pamnock]

Yes, there are different degrees. I'msure the breeder had to have noticed -- the deformity was obvious toBassettluv immediately. The front splays are pretty obviousand look awful. It's possible that the breeder has never seenthe condition, so couldn't identify exactly what was wrong, except forpossibly noting that something didn't appear right.

Pam

 

I have aquestion concerning Raph , Pam can youanswer it , I know this is adeformity BUT canpossibly heat , either moist ordry help in reducing thestiffness and make the joint plyableenough to move back into asemi normal position , followedup with a cold pack to relieveinflamation ?

Iknow when my back desides to slip off myhips moist heat, followed byice will relieve theswelling and help it sometimesgo back into place with out daysor weeks worth of suffering ? Couldthis be something that wouldbenifitRaph ?

 

[Bassetluv]

Hey all....

Well, I think all of this really just hit me today...I have been reallyupset about the whole ordeal. And of course in talking to people I havehad differing opinions on what to do -- pursue surgery (which isextremely costly for me), make him comfortable for now (which is what Iam doing at the moment), or have him put to sleep. The last one is anoption I will only look at if I believe Raph is suffering. I took himoutside this evening and he didn't appear to be in any pain; his righthind leg has a fair bit of loss of control, and he does lie down moresothan a rabbit without this would, but other than that I can't see anyreal signs of this bothering him too much. He's eating and drinking andwas very interested in exploring the world when I took him outside.However, I don't know how long it would be till the conditiondeteriorates. And right now I feel filled with guilt because I amreally extremely hesitant to spend over $1500 (or more, depending uponthe actual severity) for this. That is a lot of money...more than Icould easily afford.

As far as I understand it, from what the vet told me anyway, Raph'shind legs keep slipping out of joint (mainly the right one), and thereason could be because the groove along the top of the leg - where ourkneecap would be - is too shallow...plus the muscles could be not as'tight' as they should be in that area of the legs. That is what heconcluded from a cursory exam...no xrays were taken at the time. If Iwere to have xrays done I'd know more about the condition...but it doessound as though it isn't something that can be corrected easily.

I am interested in your question Gypsy, about applying heat and wouldbe interested in what Pam says about this. However, I don't know if itwould apply in Raph's case as the problem is with the depth of thegroove in the bone. I had actually wondered if there would be some wayto support the leg joiints - with elastic supports, perhaps - thoughgiven the area, that might not be feasible. And knowing rabbits, itwould probably be difficult to do....not to mention, it might cause himpain.

This entire thing has me so drained. I am upset because at the back ofmy mind I keep thinking...the breeder had to have known. Raph washopping around pretty well when he first arrived, but he was losing hisbalance a fair bit, and his back feet were splayed out, which had mewondering what was wrong. And of course I didnt want there to beanything wrong with him, so I kept hoping it was a simple case ofyouth, and perhaps an oddity of the breed...though in hindsight, I knewin looking at him it wasn't. I had never seen a case of splayed legs ina rabbit before, though I had heard of it. The breeder told me that shedid notice he was a bit clumsy, but put it down to his youth as well.Well, I guess that is something I will have to put behind me, becauseat this point it doesn't change the fact that Raph is here and doeshave this condition.

Thank you all again for your support and suggestions..