Hello, this is my first post on this form, so I hope that I am doing everything right. I have a question concerning the color of one of my holland lop kits. I bred a solid black otter to a solid black tort. and I got three blacks, one tort., and one unknown color. I need some help determining if this color is showable or not. I am assuming that it is a tort. otter, however I am not well versed in genetics, and I heard somewhere that you can’t get selfs, torts., and otters in the same litter. I guess I am also hoping that it is a smutty orange for the sake of wanting to show him.
Holland Lop Color Question
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Augustus&HazelGrace
Well-Known Member
He looks like blue tort.
https://www.ohiohollandlops.com/bunny-color-chart.html
https://www.ohiohollandlops.com/bunny-color-chart.html
SableSteel
Well-Known Member
Looks like a torted otter (not showable). He has enough shading personally, I would probably disqualify him and not let him pass as an orange if he came across my table. Torted otter is a very common result of that crossing, especially in hollands where so many rabbits carry tort. It's genetically impossible to get an orange out of that coloring crossing (at least one of the parents needs to be agouti for the baby to be orange - and in this case one parent is tan pattern, the other is self, neither agouti)
SableSteel
Well-Known Member
There's nothing you can breed him to and guarantee all showable babies.
But if one parent was a tortoise, bred to a tortoise he should throw about 50% torted otters, 50% tortoise. Bred to an orange, and what he produces depends on the orange - if the orange doesn't carry self or otter, you'd get 100% orange - but you can't guarantee an orange doesn't carry self/otter. If the orange does carry self you should get 50% orange, 25% torted otter, 25% tort. Bred back to an otter, and it depends on the otter as well. If the otter carries tort like the parent does, probably you'd get around 37.5% otter, 12.5% black, 37.5% torted otter, 12.5% tortoise. I'd advise not crossing to a sable point because starting to get into sable point martens and shaded martens (or even to an extent, silver martens) can get confusing in hollands.
The place where a torted otter might be most useful in a breeding program is being bred to a black. Bred to a black that doesn't carry tort (which is something you can't guarantee in life, especially in hollands) you'd get 50% black otter, 50% black. Bred to a black that carries tort (which is more likely in holland lops) you'd get about 25% black otter, 25% black, 25% torted otter, 25% tort. That can be used to introduce otter into lines that have black but don't have any black otters yet.
But if one parent was a tortoise, bred to a tortoise he should throw about 50% torted otters, 50% tortoise. Bred to an orange, and what he produces depends on the orange - if the orange doesn't carry self or otter, you'd get 100% orange - but you can't guarantee an orange doesn't carry self/otter. If the orange does carry self you should get 50% orange, 25% torted otter, 25% tort. Bred back to an otter, and it depends on the otter as well. If the otter carries tort like the parent does, probably you'd get around 37.5% otter, 12.5% black, 37.5% torted otter, 12.5% tortoise. I'd advise not crossing to a sable point because starting to get into sable point martens and shaded martens (or even to an extent, silver martens) can get confusing in hollands.
The place where a torted otter might be most useful in a breeding program is being bred to a black. Bred to a black that doesn't carry tort (which is something you can't guarantee in life, especially in hollands) you'd get 50% black otter, 50% black. Bred to a black that carries tort (which is more likely in holland lops) you'd get about 25% black otter, 25% black, 25% torted otter, 25% tort. That can be used to introduce otter into lines that have black but don't have any black otters yet.
SableSteel
Well-Known Member
Black can hide the tort (non-extension) gene. Only agouti can hide the otter gene. If the rabbit isn't agouti and isn't otter then you know it isn't carrying otter. You can sometimes tell from the pedigree if it carries tort - if one parent is tortoise, orange, or torted otter, then it carries non-extension. But even if not, that gene is so common in hollands I wouldn't be surprised if it was carrying tort anyway.
woahlookitsme
Well-Known Member
Yea I was going to say looks like a tort otter as well. If you are trying to produce babies for show my suggestion would be to pet the whole litter out and don’t repeat that breeding but maybe that’s a little harsh? Holland’s and Mini Rex are notorious for breeders crossing colors that they really shouldn’t because you produce babies that cannot be shown.pedigrees will show you three generations back and although there can be some mismatched pairs further back at least you can look in the more immediate relationships if something was mixed in that shouldn’t have been
Luckily I showed tans and we could breed all four colors and not get anything crazy or at least I never did.
Luckily I showed tans and we could breed all four colors and not get anything crazy or at least I never did.
Genetics are my weak point in breeding rabbits. I am trying to learn, but at the moment I still need quite a bit of help. 
So you wouldn’t suggest eventually breeding any of the kits? Even to certain colors? Would you still show them? Sorry for all of the questions.
So you wouldn’t suggest eventually breeding any of the kits? Even to certain colors? Would you still show them? Sorry for all of the questions.
Reese_loves_her_bun
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This baby definitely looks like a tort otter so you can’t show him, but the other kits won’t be disqualified. He’s a cutie but unfortunately only a pet. With that breeding pair an unshowable colour is always a possibility. I’d recommend breeding the tort to another tort (or self colours like black, blue and a few other ok ones) and the otter to another otter if you don’t want to make unshowable colours.
