Help! Diagnose this young rabbit

[cornflakes]

Thanks, i'll bring that dosage info with me to the vet.
I'll ask if he as any probiotics but i looked online in korea and it seems
hard to find it...i did put in an order this morning for this rabbit food that says
it also contains probiotics (the brand name is Genesis and it's some sort of healthy rabbit pellet food made from timothy).

I called another vet in seoul, but he told me he can't help me too much unless i can bring the rabbit in for a checkup/examination. I don't have a car here, and I'm well over 1.5 hours away by bus so it's not a possibility. I can only really rely on my local vet which is a smallish place with limited rabbit meds and rabbit knowledge it seems. I don't know how to inject enrofloxacin (baytril)...do u think it's possible for me to do it on my own? Is it something that I can self-learn via a video? I saw the vet inject the anti-fertilzer medicine when I took Lucky Star there and he basically just pinched some skin on the back and injected the needed into that lump of skin.....honestly, that seems pretty straightforward...but I guess I'd still prefer the oral format.

I'll mention it again, my local vet has enrofloxacin but only in injection form. The only other oral antibiotic he has other than amoxicillin is ciprofloxacin.


Well it's a holiday here but im at my work place cuz I got permission to hang around here for the day to give the rabbit his eye ointment. I'm the only one here lol...but earlier the groundskeeper was here and thankfully so cuz I set off the alarm when I entered my office and the secom security car had to come here. Yikes.

I took some new pics of his eye....if you can take a look and see what you think. This is what his eye looks like now after 7 days of eye ointment (neomycin, polymixin b sulfate) twice a day.

You might notice that little lump or dark spot under his eye....initially i thought that was the cut where he got bit and probably got infected...but now im not sure if that lump/dark spot is an abscess.

 

[cornflakes]

oh, another note is the fur on his face where he had been bitten is starting grow back in so that's good? Not sure if that means anything to the eye issue.
He's pooping well again...the cecotrope are nice and big and round...so it seems he got over that little hiccup from the 2 days of amoxicillin i gave him.....

 

[cornflakes]

just called my local vet again and this time he said he HAS the enrofloxacin (baytril) in tablet form....it's 15mg tablets.

So i think that i should go with enrofloxacin than cipro? Generally, it seems enro is used a lot more commonly than any other antibiotic for rabbits.
I'm sure they are both good but probably depends on the actual infection itself if it will respond to enro or cipro. I'm thinking I will start with enro first.
Give him 1 or 2 15mg tablet per day and if it not improving after 4-5 days...then try cipro?

 

[JBun]

That just looks like an infected wound. With an abscess you wouldn't see the wound or puss, as the infection would be below the surface of the skin. That does look kind of bad, though it could be worse. Was it worse than this before you started the eye ointment? It doesn't look like the eye itself is infected, just the eyelid below it. So that part of it is good at least. And if it isn't as bad as a week ago, that is good too, but it's still pretty infected isn't it.

If you start with the baytril pills, make sure they aren't the liver flavored for dogs. Also, for dosage, you'll need to weight him if you can. You want the dosage to be as accurate as possible. Just by looking at him, I would say he's probably around 3 kg or more. So one tablet of the 15 mg tablet twice a day, won't be enough. The average dosage is 10mg/kg every 12 hours. So if he is somewhere around 3 kg, then he will need two 15 mg tablets, twice a day. If the vet doesn't compound the tablets into a sweetened suspension liquid, then you would have to crush the tablets and mix it into something REALLY tasty, because I've heard this stuff is REALLY nasty tasting. Even in a sweetened suspension, it can be hard to get a bun to take this stuff.

That's really great his poops returned to normal. That was a bit of a worry with the amoxicillin. Even though the baytril is generally considered the easiest on their digestive flora, it can still sometimes cause loss of appetite. So, once you start the baytril, you'll want to keep an eye on his eating.

If you decide to go the route of injections, just be aware that injectable baytril can cause sterile abscesses(there's a pic on the medirabbit antibiotic link), but the good thing about injections is it is less likely to cause digestive problems. To avoid the sterile abscess problem, ask the vet about mixing the baytril with sterile saline, 50:50.

When you go to the vet, you may want to take those pics of the dad buns eye, for the vet to see.

 

[cornflakes]

oh thank god it's not an abscess. I've heard how difficult it can be to get rid of it the more i kept reading and researching.

I think you're right that it might just be an infected wound and not an eye infection. I've been treating his eye with the ointment and got most of it in his actual eye and only rubbed a bit of it on the outer wound (i didn't try rubbing it on the wound intentionally...just aiming for the eyeball). I can say that it doesn't look worse than a week ago...but i don't think it looks better either.

So maybe this ointment is not doing anything if this is in fact a wound infection and not so much an eye infection?

What exactly can i apply on this wound infection? Is the eye ointment also good to rub onto this wound? Or do I need an entirely different ointment for wound infections?

I don't know how much he weighs but I told the vet that he's a bit bigger than Lucky Star .... but i don't think even knows how much Lucky Star weighed...I never saw him weigh him...but he did take him to the back for an xray.

I will opt not to do the injection. So with the pills, since they taste so bad, he won't eat them for sure on his own, so I'll have to crush them up and dilute it in sweet liquid? Can I use something like apple juice or honey? Do I feed him the same way using the oral needle feeder or is he supposed to just somehow eat this on his own?

How long or how many days should I be giving him this before I start to see any benefits?

Sorry for all these questions, but honestly with vet, he really doesn't seem to know much at all lol. I can't rely solely on him so I am really relying on your experiences and self-developed expertise!

I'm going first thing in the morning to pick up the tablets.

Oh, and why should I make sure they are not liver flavored for dogs tablets? Is it the taste or is it a medical/health concern? I'm not sure if he'll have a variety to choose from so I might have to just accept them or nothing. Then maybe I just go with the cipro if the baytril is liver flavored for dogs? Are they made specially for rabbits or just generic baytril antibiotics that I can choose from any?

 

[whitelop]

I would try to get some baby food, like mashed bananas or pears or even just regular applesauce would be okay. Just something REALLY tasty to hide the pill taste.
There was one member who made her bun smoothies to take her meds, she would blend blueberries and spinach and banana together to make a nice sweet treat with hidden meds.
Just remember no dairy products.

Poor big bunny!

 

[JBun]

I think it's just that the liver flavor doesn't taste good. With how bad the baytril already tastes, I don't know if that will make any difference at all. Morgan's suggestion for feeding is good. Applesauce or mushed banana would make it the easiest to mix the meds with. It may even be possible to take a little piece of banana and just hide the whole pill in it, and see if he'll take it that way.

I don't know how expensive enrofloxacin is there, but here it's pretty expensive. So you may want to see how the price compares with the cipro. I'm not sure how long it will take to see results, but hopefully you'll see it in a couple days. I would still keep using the eye ointment since some of it will probably still get in the eye, but put it on the wound directly, instead of trying to put it in the eye. Just putting the ointment right on the wound should make a difference, as long as the dad isn't grooming it off right away. It might be good to put it on the wound first, then distract him with a handful of hay.

 

[kmaben]

Yikes! Poor little love. See if you could get some sterile water and syringes from the vet (no needle). shouldnt cost much. Even just flushing the wound will help it. Take a wet washcloth and heat it in the microwave for a few seconds so it's warm and hold it to the wound. It'll help draw out all the pus and nastyness to the surface and you can wipe it or flush it with the sterile water. Baytril is disgusting and you may just have a fight on your hands. My Kai baby was on it for two months. Worst months of his and my life. Alot of rabbit bugs are resilant to Baytril so dont expect results right away. Be prepared for a wait. Hopefully it'll help with his eye and his nose which was looking a little crusty also.

 

[eclairemom]

It breaks my heart to see the poor boy like that. Good thing you have a vet willing to work with you without actually seeing him. Hope he gets better.

 

[tonyshuman]

I agree with a lot of the above, but wanted to mention that it is not hard to learn to inject, if you are willing to do so. The vet should be able to show you how, and there are some videos that are helpful on youtube.

I agree that the wound looks like an infected bite or scratch, maybe something with the tear duct, maybe a scratch on the third eyelid that got infected. Enrofloxacin is usually preferred in rabbits, not sure why. In the body cipro and enrofloxacin get bioconverted to the same active compound. I know enrofloxacin is not used in humans because it has psychological side effects. Best of luck with the baytril tabs (ground up and suspended in something tasty is a good idea). He really needs some help with that eye, poor guy.

For a probiotic, you can use any human probiotic that is not milk-based. Rabbits cannot digest lactose. I would go with a simple acidophilus capsule from the health food store, non-dairy. You could cut open the capsule and give 1/5-1/2 of it (depending on size) to the bun in a sitting. Don't get the kind that is probiotic + fiber or anything, just pain old probiotic would be best.

 

[cornflakes]

I picked up 10 tablets (15mg each) of baytril and it cost me 15,000 won here which is about 12-13 dollars?

I saw a video about putting the pill inside a banana. When I saw him, he looked really hungry (as he knows when I arrive, I always have something good to eat so he rushes to me). I had already slipped the tiny pill inside the tip of the banana and he started eating the banana like mad crazy. His second bite included the baytril tablet as I heard him crunching on it....he paused for a second (probably wondering what this hard crunchy thing was amidst all this yummy soft chewy food) then resumed eating more banana. I only gave him a few bites of banana to let him completely swallow whatever he had in his mouth. Good thing is it seems like he didn't notice it and just ate it so easily.

I put the eye ointment directly on his wound too. I'll keep you all update in a couple days. I hope he'll start showing improvement. Thanks so much again for all the support and advice. As someone put it earlier, I really am having a crash course in rabbit health lol.

 

[cornflakes]

Today is Saturday and I went to see him to give him his meds for the day. His eye was totally shut. It seems it's gotten more swollen and the pus is even thicker. It seems swollen above his eye now. He was also a lot more sensitive to me touching his eye when putting the ointment on it...it may be more painful.

He ate his 2nd tablet of enrofloxacin (in the banana) and I have 8 more tablets (1 per day). I don't know why but it seems like he's getting worse.

I know that the ground he lives on his always dirty (lots of dirt, sand, and other debris), and he was itching is eye a lot with his hind leg (first licking his foot, then scratching his eye). I suppose the dirt from his feet to his eye isn't helping but why is his eye more swollen today? Could it be something else we're not getting?

Is this eye ointment that I am giving him actually doing anything for him or is it completely the wrong medicine?

I was thinking about trying to clean his eye but he's way too sensitive for that and would run away very scared. He even tried to put his head between the wall and box for protection. I tried to dampen it with a clean wet cloth....or even squirt some water on it with a clean feeding syringe. I think someone said u can use salt water?? I don't know if I should try to rinse it out or just leave it alone.

The eye ointment tube is almost done...maybe 30% of it is left. He's only on his 2nd day of enro, but why he seems to be getting worse after all this is making me frustrated. I didn't have my HD cam with me so i used my cell phone pic...not sure if u can see it clearly but now his upper eye looks swollen.

Previously it was only his lower eyelid that was swollen.

 

[cornflakes]

Oh, there were so many of those house flies or poo flies around...u know...they are attracted to poop. I wonder if they might have any affect on passing germs or bacteria/dirt if they land and sit on his face or eye.
I caught and killed nearly 60+ flies over the last 2 days to try and eliminate them....i put up those sticky fly traps on the ceiling too to try and catch those flies....

 

[cornflakes]

After watching more videos and looking up for info about eye infections or conjunctivitis or abscess, I'm feeling very worried now and on the brink of giving up.

Since his eye is shut now, i saw a video that said it was shut due to the white discharge that sealed it....and then it can't escape or release so it builds up behind the shut eye...they then had to forcibly part the eye lids
open and all this thick white pus came oozing out. They all said that if the eye doesn't get better quickly, it could mean a secondary or underlying problem like dental issue or abscess in the molar putting pressure on the tear ducts
or some even said that an eye infection can lead to the growth of an abscess underneath the eye or eyelids. There seems to be no cure for it. It's either you surgically remove the eye or you have to wash out the eye twice a day for possibly his entire life.

I need to start to prepare for the worst and what to do if the worst case scenario comes true. There's no way I can clean his eye out twice a day, let alone even just grab him and hold him still. He's not a house bunny. I'm so frustrated cuz all these videos online are with calm rabbits who just sit still and take the washing or meds. Dad rabbit will not. I'd have to forcibly wrap him up in a towel or something and it'd require 2 people and he'd probably just die of stress being captured like that twice a day.

I don't think there is any way I can put him up for adoption....I don't think he can be sent via airplane and travel for 13 hours to North America. I don't have the money or anything to send him to a vet's care where he can stay there for a week or longer where it's clean, and can get daily proper attention. Rather than to leave him like this....this eye isn't getting better leads me to think the infection will only spread to his brain or respiratory if it hasn't already and lead to death anyways....should I consider putting him down?

I really appreciate everyone trying to help me and it's so heart warming, but i'm frustrated now and tired. None of the vets here can explain anything to me, I can't find anything I'm looking for because of the language barrier. Nobody here understands what the "hell" im trying to explain to them. And then his paws are just constantly dirty with god knows what in there and he licks it and rubs and scratches his eye. I've spent about $300 of my own money on Lucky Star and Dad Rabbit combined for meds, foods, equipment, transportation etc., and I've been coming into work on my weekends and holidays to see him ....and after all this, he's not getting any better and the videos online all say that these things could take months or a year to clear up.

I'll finish using the eye ointment (neomycin + polymixin B sulfate) (still don't know what this eye ointment is for exactly and nobody seems to know either so i've been giving him this thing for 9 days straight not knowing if it's even what he needs),
and I'll finish giving him the rest of the 8 enrofloxacin tablets. After that, if he's not better or if he's gotten worse, I think it'll be best to just put him down, unless I can find someone to or someplace here in Korea who knows what they are doing
and take care of him. I'm an emotional person and these things really depress me. I've given as much as I can do but I'm all alone and even the vets don't offer much help, I don't think I can take this much longer.

I was thinking about the "saline solution" but it's next to impossible to find it here or ask for it that's not FOR CONTACT LENS, but just straight up plain solution. I don't even know how I'm going to try and explain that to a drugstore who doesn't speak any english. Next, if I get the saline solution, can i just squirt it on his shut eye? Do I have to open his eye (because that won't be possible), or can I just squirt it on his shut eyelid and hope it soaks up into his eye and around the swollen eye area.

Every video i watch for help, they always tell me, before you do anything go see a vet and make sure you know what you're doing first. Well I don't know what I'm doing, and I can't see a vet, and even if I could, they don't know what to do ....if they'd even prescribe to me oral amoxicillin, something that research says everywhere WILL KILL YOUR RABBIT, then what hope do I have that they'd know anything else about dad rabbit's condition? This is hopeless.

I'm really just starting to think euthanasia is the easiest solution for everyone including dad rabbit, but i'd rather not....i'd rather just give him away somewhere or drop him off at some animal shelter and not know what becomes of him than to know that I put him down and feel guilty even after everything I tried to do with all the odds against me.

Sorry I needed to vent....there's nobody to talk to and nobody to help me...I just got hit with this wave of depression all of a sudden after watching more videos and doing more research.

 

[cornflakes]

Went to the pharmacy drugstore asked for something like saline solution....told him it was for an animal that had swollen eye shut...he recommended this:
http://www.dsmedicine.co.kr/sub/sub2_1_1.html?no=743&PHPSESSID=8baf61fcf43b8ec8999d5a94fbbf3eba

It's called Eye Pill....if u use google...u should be able to click on the "translate" at the top and it'll change it to english.
Here's what's in it:
Ingredient
Aminocaproic acid'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' 10mg
neo-methyl sulfate Teague Min'' ' '''''''''''''''''' '0.02mg
hydrochloride sleepy Napa'''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''' '0.02mg
peniramin maleic acid salt claw back'''''''''''''''''''''''' 0.1mg
p-benzoic acid methyl'''' '''''''''''''''''''''''' '0.25mg
p-acid profile'''''''''''''''''' ' '''' '0.125mg
chlorobutanol'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ' 1.5mg

Says it's for:
Efficacy
Eyestrain, conjunctival hyperemia, eye discomfort, or after swimming or sweating Eyecontact dust,
UV rays and other rays by the ophthalmia, blepharitis (eyelid erosion), discomfort when wearing hard contact lenses,
eye itching, eye The chimchimham (when a lot of gum, etc.)
That's what the google translated page said....do you think this is ok to squirt in dad rabbit's eye or would this only aggravate and make his eye worse??

 

[whitelop]

I think you should take him back to your house until he heals. With all the flies around and he's running the risk of getting fly strike in his eye. Because the flies will be attracted to his wound. Fly strike is the when flies lay eggs in an open wound and the eggs hatch in the wound and eat their way out. Its terrible.
So I would really take him home with you and try to keep him safe from fly strike and all the dirty floors and stuff where he is now.

I don't know if that stuff is safe to put in his eye. There are a lot of chemicals in there and a lot of different ingredients. So I'm not sure.
The language barrier has to be so hard, but you're doing the best you can.

Could you get any iodine? I don't know if its the right thing to clean his eye out with either, but diluted iodine is what you would use.

Just keep giving him the antibiotics and hopefully they'll start to help. Is he still eating and drinking and pooping okay?

I would just take him home with you, that might make him more comfortable and make it easier for him to heal. And this is what you need to do when you take him home. Tell your employers that he died. Do not take him back to that disgusting place. Seriously. Just tell them that he passed away a few days after you brought him home and you're really sorry but he was sick. I know its wrong to lie, I'm fully aware of that. But, in this situation I think its what needs to be done, to keep him safe from that place. And when to go back to Canada, try to find out if you can carry him on the plane with you. You'll have to have a health certificate to travel and I'm not sure how intercontinental animal transport goes. But I think thats for the best. I'm sorry theres no one there to help you and we're all so far away and can't physically help. But if you can carry him on the plane with you when you come back, then get him to Canada there are so many rescue groups would take him, just tell them his story and tell them what hes been through. There would be someone to take him if you could get him here. I know its crazy.
Or you could get him put to sleep. Thats a hard option, but it might be for the best. That way he wouldn't be suffering anymore, or dealing with being sick or beat up by other rabbits. Sorry to be harsh.

You've done such a great job taking care of them.

 

[JBun]

I'm so sorry the dad's eye looks worse. I can't quite understand it either. You could maybe ask the vet for a different antibiotic ointment or drops. Maybe the one your using isn't very effective against the bacteria in his wound and eye. You also may need to be giving him a higher dose of the baytril. If you think he weighs around 6 lbs or 3 kg, then the dose you are giving is the minimum at 5 mg/kg twice a day. He would probably be better getting at least 10mg/kg twice a day, so that would be two pills, twice a day. I don't know, but maybe it will make a difference. The hard part with antibiotics is that sometimes they aren't effective against certain bacteria, so then a different one has to be used.

That eye solution doesn't seem like the right thing. You need just a plain saline solution that is used to rinse contact lenses. You could also get a sterile saline solution used to flush wounds. You just don't want the added meds/chemicals that they put in eye drop type solutions.

You're certainly in a difficult situation with the dad bun. There's only so much that you are able to do for him, considering your situation and his. And if it comes down to it and they eye won't heal, then it would probably be better that he wasn't left in a situation where he would be suffering. It's a hard decision for sure. It is very hard having a sick rabbit. It's very stressful. When I've gone through it, I've just had to remind myself that I'm doing the best I can for my animal, and that will just have to be enough. Sometimes there is only so much you can do.

 

[cornflakes]

When I first brought him to my place, I actually wanted to keep him there the entire time until his eye would heal (1 or 2 weeks) but THE WORST POSSIBLE TIMING EVER was that our place just started CONSTRUCTION. They work EVERY SINGLE DAY from Mon to Sun 7:30am to 5:00pm and they make a lot of pounding, booming noises with the grinding equipment, hammering, and building vibrating/shaking...I saw that the dad rabbit got so startled by this and his breathing was faster than normal.

I was so frustrated because I couldn't believe the TIMING of this construction. It happens right when he's sick and needs to be in a quiet and restful place. My place is always quiet and peaceful but not right now...that's why I thought it best to take him back cuz at least there it's quieter and he won't be stressed out...but then that place is dirty and he's getting his dirty paw to scratch his eye all the time. I hate this horrible no win situation!

So I don't know what's better. Just leave him there where it's quiet and peaceful but outdoorsy dirty or stay at my place where it's cleaner, but he'll have to put up with horrible construction noise from 7:30am to 5:00pm every single day for the next week or so until they finish. They're literally right next to our wall because my room is a corner room and they are adding metal frames around the entire building to put up some new panels or something. It's not construction that's happening on another part of the building...it's literally right above me, and beside me on 3 of the 4 sides of my room.

I just can't believe the timing of everything. Where he lives, there used to be NO FLIES whatsoever! The weather just got warm about a 2 weeks ago and now that he's hurt and has that eye problem, his pen is swarming with hundreds of those black flies, plus the construction that started at my place, plus the vet giving me amoxicillin instead of baytril a week ago...he could have started on baytril a week ago instead of just 2 days ago....everything just seems like it's happening to frustrate me. I've been here for 3 years and never had construction once. The 2 weeks construction decides to enter my life are the exact 2 weeks when the rabbit is sick and needs a quiet place to rest.

I'm so emotional right now I feel like punching a hole or many through my wall...i just can't believe my luck right now...someone wants that rabbit dead and someone wants me to lose my head. This is so unfair.

 

[cornflakes]

How about Terramycin eye ointment? I just read that many owners have used this to clear up eye infections in rabbits?
Should I try and find this??

After using the current eye ointment im using now (Polymixin B + Neomycin + Dexametasone = it's called "Forus: Opthalmic Ointment" by Samil) for 9 days now and hasn't helped at all it seems,
shouldn't I be trying a different eye ointment or eye antibiotic?

Why wouldn't the vets tell me any of this?? I'm becoming a self-made doctor by doing all the work and research and then suggesting it to the vets! Everything they've given me so far either KILLS RABBITS or has been INEFFECTIVE.
I had to tell them to give me enrofloxacin....they never suggested that to me, just amoxicillin.

 

[kmaben]

Just an idea but my old doc is stationed on the Army base out in Korea. He'd be able to help find someone who can register him on the post there. The vet there will be an American who will atleast know something about rabbits and speak English. They will be able to get rabbit savy medications that the Koreans dont seem to have. I'm not sure how far away you are in relation to the bases out there. Plus if you did happen to want to keep him and ship him home with you that would also be the easiest and cheapest route. I dont mind chipping in through a paypal account either. There are so many rabbits out there that need help and they'll just continue to get more at your work. But you really seem to like this little guy and I dont want you to put the time and effort in for something so stupid as an infected scratch from a terrible situation.

Is that a possibility you would want me to pursue?

EDIT: http://militarybases.com/overseas/south-korea/
Here's a list of where everything is located. What's nearest you?