Help! Diagnose this young rabbit

[cornflakes]

He's been breathing really fast today....it's quiet here (after 4pm) and there should be no stresses...he's eating well, and peeing and pooping (poop is a bit bigger and rounder but wetter today). But his breathing is really fast...his nose twitches like crazy fast. I'm worried it might be the infection spreading since I stopped giving him the oral antibiotic.

It's like a no win situation. If I give him the oral antibiotic, he could go into GI Stasis and die. If I don't give him the antibiotic, the infection could spread and kill him?

I'll have to call the vet and see if he has any other antibiotic (one of the safe ones someone mentioned earlier) but chances are he doesn't have it....else, why would he give me the amoxicillin??? This makes me very mad.

 

[cornflakes]

Here's a short clip of his breathing i just took now.
Video

 

[JBun]

Is it maybe hot inside your home right now? That would cause fast breathing, and you would need to help him cool down with a frozen water bottle to lay next to, wiping his ears with cool water, and/or putting ice cubes in his water dish. If his ears are hot, then he's hot and needs help cooling down.

If it's not the heat, then fast breathing will happen when they aren't feeling well. If it's his stomach, things to look out for are reduced appetite or not eating, grinding teeth, changing positions frequently, sitting hunched up, and/or a distended belly. You can also check his ears. If they are cold, then he is probably feeling some pain. You can help warm him up with a warm pack or warm towels. I don't know if it's possible for you to get a pet probiotic, like Bene Bac. If he starts having digestive problems, that would really help. Or if you can find a non dairy probiotic. If he stops eating you'll want to have a few things on hand to try and help him. Infant gas drops(simethicone) for if he has gas, if you can get some dog metacam suspension liquid (1.5mg/ml) to help control pain(dosage 0.1-0.2mg/kg, up to 0.6 if needed, once every 12-24 hrs), some syringes without needles( 1cc for meds, 3-12cc for feeding), a soft food that you can syringe feed him if he stops eating(oxbow critical care if you can get it, is the best, or you can soak his pellets in warm water- may also have to blend in blender to get it smooth enough to syring feed, or plain canned pumpkin( not pie filling with spices, nothing else added to it). If his gut bacteria is off balance now then it's going to be a challenge to get that under control. Don't feed him any sugars, carbs, staches, grains, and start a probiotic if you were able to get it, and feed grass hay.

It is a possibility too, that him having different foods that he's not used to, has upset his stomach. Feeding grass hay is the best thing at this point, but I know that can be hard if he won't eat it.

I can't say for sure, but I don't think it's the infection spreading that is the problem. If that were the case you would probably be seeing other signs of it, like his eye bulging, or possibly cloudiness in his eye.

 

[KeltonB]

This fella has been through so much, I really hope he makes a full recovery. You are doing a great job, especially with the lack of a rabbit specialist vet. There is a big place in my heart for this bunny

 

[JBun]

I watched the video again and that nose is moving pretty fast. He seems pretty distressed. If it's heat, you need to get him cooled down right away. If it's pain causing it, can you get him to the vet or get some metacam from the vet for him, or whatever else he might need at this point. I would just suggest, if you do get meds from the vet, to double check the medirabbit list, to make sure the med is rabbit safe, and at the right dosage. Sorry, he's not feeling good. Having a sick bun can be stressful. I had one last night and couldn't sleep til I saw she was feeling better and eating again. I hope you are able to get what's wrong with him sorted out.

 

[tonyshuman]

I think he looks pretty distressed. You should be able to get an acceptable oral antibiotic, like baytril or zithromax in Ontario. If he has had oral amoxicillin, it's extremely dangerous and he will need to see an emergency vet that knows something about rabbits immediately. Did you look on the HRS webpage? rabbit.org

 

[kmaben]

Do you have any of that stuff available to you? Would be more than happy to send out a care package. Of course it doesnt help with the right now but it's always a good practice to have it on hand. It can be difficult to find in that part of the world, not to mention the translating piece.

 

[tonyshuman]

Sorry, I didn't realize you are in Korea, since your profile says Canada. You can probably still get zithromax there, and the amoxicillin can be formulated for injection and given that way. Ciprofloxacin can be given (bio-equivalent to enrofloxacin, aka Baytril), and that is usually easy to find. Sometimes it is easier to find chloramphenicol outside of the US, and that could be a good choice as well.
http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Antibiotics/Safe_antibiotics.htm

 

[cornflakes]

thank you all to those extremely helpful responses.
My place was about 28 degrees celsius (according to digital temp. reader). It didn't feel too hot for me. Anyways, I gave him cold water (left an icepack in the bowl) and he seemed to really like it...he was drinking a lot.

The good news is he's eating well...always looking to munch on stuff and he is also peeing and pooping a lot again. He wasn't hunched over, but he did like to lay down a lot...he spread out his back legs, or he lay on his side, or he'd look actually very comfortable laying down....it was just his rapid breathing that was shaking his ears and twitching his nose so fast it just doesn't look comforting. Anyways, today is Monday and I brought him back to the workplace. He's been living there for i think 5 or 7 years (before I came) so I'm sure he feels at home again...even if it's not that pretty of a place. I put the steel fence up to separate the 2 new rabbits there cuz as soon I put him back there, they were chasing him again and he was just running his ass off.

I hate how the ppl here tell me how he's such a big rabbit that he should be stronger and overpower the little rabbit. I kept telling them it's not like that. He might look big and be much bigger, but he's extremely gentle and sensitive...he wouldn't hurt a fly. But those little ones are extremely aggressive and not scared to touched by humans either....they must've been handled by human owners previously? They don't seem sensitive either...i can touch them, grab them, push them, flick them, and they just keep coming back for more.

The dad rabbit as I explained earlier is just so gentle and courteous. Even when I open the cage door, 98% of the time he stays in the cage. When he does come out, he just investigates and doesn't cause a mess or damages anything...he just runs back to his cage.

This morning, even when lifted the cage up to fold it up and pack it to go, he stayed in that zone. He barely left the blanket to look around.....I could have probably just removed the cage altogether and he'd stay in his corner.

I'll call the vet or other vets that I can find now and ask if they have any of the aforementioned safe antibiotics. I'll also question them as to why they think oral amoxicillin as antibiotic is ok for rabbits. That's extremely disturbing that they'd prescribe that to me when it'd probably kill the rabbit.

 

[cornflakes]

Here's a video clip I took this morning....he likes to sit on top of this plastic barrel container
...i guess he feels safer up there. The 2 new rabbits (one male and one female) also had 2 babies last week...u can see them here...all that white fur they are covered in probably comes from the dad rabbit that the mother was biting off a couple weeks ago.
Video

 

[cornflakes]

ok just talked to the vet now and asked him...he said he has enrofloxacin (baytril) but only in injection form, not oral.

He also has ciprofloxacin and in oral form, but he told me that it's very strong that it's dangerous for the rabbit. He said the dosage would have to be so small but it's dangerous. Does anyone know the exact dosage that he should make out for ciprofloxacin if i choose to get it from him? He said he can give it to me if I really want it but he did warn me it's too strong for rabbits.

I told him the rabbit's eye looks like it's getting better slightly (maybe 10% improvement over 3 days ago), and he thinks i don't need the oral antibiotic now, so I told him I'd wait another 24 hours or so and let him know.

Which is the safest with the least amount of side effects for rabbits?
Enrofloxacin (Baytril)
Ciprofloxacin
Chloramphenicol
Zithromax

 

[JBun]

I'm thinking that maybe it would be good to hold off on the oral or injected antibiotics as well. As long as the infection in the eye continues to show progress that it's healing, it might be better to continue with that for another week to see if it clears it up. I'm just concerned that giving oral antibiotics, even though those ones listed are safer for rabbits, sometimes they can still disrupt the gut flora, and with you being in korea and maybe not having access to what might be needed if that happens, it might be better to stick with the ointment and give it a chance. If the infection in the eye seems to be getting worse, or if at the end of the week the eye isn't significantly better, then oral or injected antibiotics are probably going to be needed to clear up the infection. I don't know how often the vet said to put the oinment on, but if you can put it on 2-3 times a day, it will probably have a greater chance of healing with just the ointment.

I'm pretty sure baytril is considered the safest abx for rabbits. It seems to be the one most often prescribed here. I'm not sure about the others. Hopefully tonyshuman will comment on that. Maybe it would be possible for the vet to compound the injectable baytril with a compounding sweetener so you could give it orally. So if you end up needing an oral abx, maybe that is an option.

 

[cornflakes]

ok, i'll wait a bit longer.

I hope that the fast breathing doesn't have anything to do with the infection.
That's why I was concerned and thinking about restarting the oral antibiotics.

 

[JBun]

I was going to also say that from the video from your place, the dad bun does look like a very calm well adjusted rabbit. I was amazed that he went from his home to yours, and didn't seem stressed at all. He would make a good house bunny It's too bad these new buns are so territorial. I guess they could get to the point where they got along, but the poor dad bun would probably get beat up in the process. Rabbit fights can even end in death. They can be pretty vicious when it comes to territory. The dad truly must be a big sweetheart if he's letting these rabbits come into his territory and just take it over without putting up much of a fight.

I'm glad he's got a little perch he can hide out on. As much as I dislike the other rabbits beating him up, and the conditions these rabbits are in, I will say that I'm a sucker for the babies. They're really cute. So does it look like the babies have black bands around both their eyes? The breed of some of my rabbits is like that, but the look of my rabbits is a little different. Just wait til those babies are about 2-4 weeks old. They are so cute and cuddly at that age, you'll love it

I think the breathing was just due to the heat. If the infection was getting worse, I don't think you would be seeing improvement around his eye.

 

[cornflakes]

thanks...that's good news to hear. Yeah, I can't believe how incredibly well behaved the dad rabbit is. I miss not having him in my place now lol. I just washed the blankets and the house area today and the smell reminds me of him. Yeah, the babies are so adorable...they have the black band around their eyes just like the mom. I wonder why those 2 new rabbits are so different? Are they a different breed with different personality as the dad rabbit? They are constantly sniffing at the steel fence and looking through it probably trying to figure out a way to get to the other side. I can literally rough up their faces as I'm petting them and they don't get scared or back off. It's such a contrast with the dad rabbit who gets scared and sensitive when i touch him....so i try to pat him gently.

Is there anything i should prepare for when those babies get a bit bigger? They are only in their 2nd week i believe. What do I do once they start walking around? They eat different food? Any concerns about them getting sick? What can I do to make sure they can be as healthy as possible and have a chance to grow up?

 

[JBun]

The new rabbits being different, can have to do a little with breed, but it will also have to do with individual personality, as well as how much they've been handled by people. The dad sounds like he has a gentle more laid back personality, but also a little skittish cause he isn't used to being handled by people. These new rabbits sound like at least one of them is more dominant (with the aggression towards the dad bun) and they may have a more hyper personality, and it also sounds like they are used to human interaction, so what you do doesn't make them nervous or scare them.

Around 11 days the babies eyes will start to open, and not long after that they will start trying to venture out of the nest. I couldn't tell exactly what their nest situation is, but once they start coming out of the nest, will they be able to get back into it to snuggle up and stay warm when they sleep? Usually the biggest difficulty with babies is that they can sometimes have a hard time with the change over to solid food. When they start coming out of the nest and nibbling on their mom's food, you could start checking their bums every day, to make sure they don't have soft poop sticking to their bums. If it happens, it can actually dry on there and basically, clog up the opening. For signs of illness, it's pretty much the same ones you would see with an adult rabbit. Sitting hunched up or lethargic, not wanting to eat when they usually would, grinding teeth(different than contented tooth purring). Hopefully they don't get sick, as it can be pretty hard to save them. Usually there isn't a problem, so they should grow up just fine. Having grass hay would help. I wish these people fed the rabbits hay. Even a clean(not moldy) oat or wheat straw would be better than nothing. You could try feeding the babies a little grass hay. If they don't have hay in their nest, it actually might be a good idea to put some around there after their eyes open, then they can start nibbling on it(as long as the big bunnies don't eat it ). You don't want to give the babies treats or veggies, unless veggies is something the momma regularly gets and they are used to nibbling on them too. Sudden introduction of veggies and treats to babies, can cause mushy poop and digestive upset. Another thing to watch for is that the other rabbit isn't hurting the babies in any way. Other than all that, enjoy the fun of them, and get your snuggles in. After about 4 weeks old, they are usually to hyper to hold still for snuggles

 

[cornflakes]

Thanks for that heads up. When you say 'grass hay' is that a specific type of hay or is that the general name given to many types of hay such as Timothy Hay? Yes, I feed them timothy hay everyday. They really like it...especially the 2 new rabbits.

I have another dilemma approaching. My weekend will start on Thursday. Wednesday is the last day of work for the week. Then I won't be back until Monday. The dad rabbit's eye is still producing a lot of white/sort of caramel color pus and the fur around the eye and nose area is always wet/clumped (maybe has to do with the dad licking his paw or feet and rubbing it there). When I said the eye looked like it was getting better, mainly it was the cut below the eye that had swollen up. The swelling has gone down and the dry blood of the cut under the eye looks to be healing...but maybe that is different from the actual eye infection? So I don't know for sure if the eye infection is going away...only that the cut looks to be healing and the swelling has gone done...but still a lot of wet pus and white/caramel around the eyes. I don't know what will happen during the 4 days i'm gone and he gets no meds.

It was last Thursday that I started giving him the eye ointment....today here is Tuesday, so it's been 6 days and I'll only have tomorrow left to see him and determine whether his eye infection is in fact going away or staying the same. It doesn't look like it's getting worse at least...

Not sure if I should try and get the oral antibiotic. I'll ask if the during the closing days, if there is a way I can still access the grounds just to see the rabbit and apply the eye ointment at least once a day during those 4 days off. Originally, the vet said the meds would last 6 days (but that was the oral antibiotic) and the eye ointment, he said just to use it all up until the tube is empty or the infection is completely gone. I'd say the tube is about 60% done and I've been giving it to him twice a day for the last 6 days now...couple days I actually gave it to him 3 times.

 

[cornflakes]

I've been doing more research and I'm getting a lot of hits on "abscesses" when I look for "eye infections". However, I do not think what dad rabbit has is an abscesses. Am I correct? Based on the photo I uploaded a couple pages back, can anyone tell if this is clearly not an issue of abscesses or not? He still has white pus around the eye or mainly the bottom corner...wet fur still under the eye and near the nose area...but I don't see any sort of "cloudiness in the eye" or some sort of giant wart or bulging zit ...it's just an accumulation of white pus ....I just want to make sure that I'm not dealing with abscesses so that I can solely just focus on eye infection.

It's now exactly 7 days since i started treatment (only eye ointment, oral antibiotic (amoxicillin) stopped after 2 days due to signs of it messing with his GI). While it doesn't appear to be worse, I can't say it looks to be much better either....only the cut under the eye (on the skin) seems to be healing and the swelling gone down but not the white pus and wetness around his eye. I'm starting to think I should get an oral antibiotic (ciprofloxacin) and start giving it to him. My local vet only has enrofloxacin (baytril) in injection form and cipro in oral form.

What do you guys think? Should I still wait longer and hold out on the cipro or should I get it now and start giving it to him along with the eye ointment.

I keep reading how since rabbits have eye nerves that directly connect to the brain, eye infections can lead to brain infection and death. I don't know if me waiting this long is OK or if this is the "red zone" and I should start getting a move on getting the next medication?

 

[JBun]

Abscesses are possible but hopefully won't happen as they can be very hard to clear up. If the eye hasn't showed a good amount of improvement then it looks like the oral antibiotics are going to be needed. The cipro is ok orally, as is the zithromax and chloramphenicol. You'll want to make sure the dosage you are given is correct, as it is different for rabbits then it is for dogs and cats. The medirabbit link shows the common dosage used for rabbits. You may want to bring that info with you when you pick up the med from the vet. Also ask the vet if they have probiotics. It really is best to give them when giving antibiotics, to help with the gut flora. You need non dairy, as the lactose can upset rabbits digestion sometimes. If you aren't able to find any, I guess you'll have to chance it, since he does seem to need the oral antibiotics at this point.

Did you decide to go see the dad each day to give him his meds or are you going to bring him home again? You're certainly getting a crash course in rabbit health. Hopefully you'll get to experience the fun part of rabbits without having to always have to help sick ones.

http://www.medirabbit.com/Safe_medication/Antibiotics/Safe_antibiotics.htm
http://www.rabbit.org/health/antibiotics.html

Yeah, grass hay is just a generic term. Timothy is a grass. I just specify grass because alfalfa hay can cause digestive upset sometimes, if not slowly introduced. Alfalfa can be used, especially for nursing mother rabbits and babies, but it needs to be gradually introduced to minimize digestive upset.

 

[tonyshuman]

Usually if you see leaking pus it's not an abscess. If the abscess is burst, you may see pus, but otherwise the pus usually is coming from the eye itself if you can see it in that type of infection. Sometimes an abscess of the incisors will put pressure on the tear duct that drains liquid from the eye. Usually then you see clear drainage from the eye, but the eye can get infected since it's not draining properly, and then you'd see a white discharge. It is hard to tell without an x-ray.

Injecting the meds is fine if you are willing to do it. They can also usually make those meds work for oral administration.