Free roaming Flemish--Do I actually NEED a cage?

[abuccieri]

Hello!
Butt Nugget is my 4 month Flemish/Checkered cross, and since he came home a month and a half ago, freely roams the house. And yes, he leaves destruction in his wake—as is his right as the true head of the house, of course.
I have a large breed dog crate that we used in the beginning to get him litter trained, and I still keep it in the kitchen as a feeding/litter area. We rarely lock him up--only if contractors are coming in/out, or young kids are around and likely to leave the slider open >.<
His other litter box and feeding station is in my home office (~12'x15'), where I work every day. Instead of locking him in the cage, I could just shut my office door and keep him in there and safe if needed. So...the cage is huge, and if I don't lock him in it, it begs the question 'do I really NEED a cage set up all the time'?
Besides his litter boxes, he loves to poop all over the bottom of the crate, so I'm worried he may pick up that habit when he makes my office 'his'. Of course I can just try it out and see what happens, but I was wondering if buns (or larger breeds possibly) just like having a home station to poop all over and claim as their own warren/sanctuary of sorts. Would I be depriving him of his own spot? Or are other litter-trained, free-range buns just fine as long as they have easy access to their amenities?
Thanks so much for your support!
-Andrea

 

[Moonshadow]

Another New Hampshire person, hello!

For my netherland dwarf Minyeong (Min-Min for short), we started him off in a dog kennel to litter train too. When he got older, we just kept the kennel open all the time as his home base (food and litter area). He has free range of the entire showroom (it’s his room) and greets customers when they come in to our family business. I think bunnies like having a place they consider theirs though it doesn’t necessarily have to be a cage.

Here are a few photos: (Please excuse the mess in the room. We had to put my grandma in a nursing home recently so have been in the process of emptying her house. Trying to find where to put stuff currently. Min-Min loves exploring the new stuff we’ve been bringing in temporarily though)

 

[JBun]

Cages aren't usually necessary for completely free roam rabbits, though I would still provide a designated home base spot that is his stuff. You could start with removing the sides of the crate so that you'll just be left with the tray. I would keep everything else the same for a week or two, maybe longer, just until you're sure that he still recognizes that space as his. Then if you want to get rid of the crate tray, you need a suitable replacement for his home base spot. If he doesn't like to pee on soft things, some sort of soft non abrasive rabbit safe rug is a good option. One that is low pile without those long carpet strands that are so tempting for rabbits to pull and try and chew(which would be a digestive blockage risk).

Then I would either set the rug next to the crate tray, or partially under it. Just so it's there for your rabbit to get used to and establish as part of his territory. Once he has and is used to it, then you can try removing the crate tray.

Here's an idea for a pretty basic 'home base' from the link below:
https://myhouserabbit.com/rabbit-care/housing-your-pet-rabbit-indoors/

 

[Orrin]

Our Flemmie has a set-up much like JBun's. We erected a 3' X 8' pen for keeping him confined for litter training; but, he picked up on that overnight. Now, the pen is gone and only the two chair mats remain, covered with a throw rug.

Besides his "home base" litter pan he has another in a place that he selected. He "did business" there and so we put a second litter pan at that location. No cage is necessary for either him or the doe that has the run of another part of the house.

The wooden border is an excellent idea and we plan on doing the same thing when I get the time.

 

[abuccieri]

Thanks so much for the replies I moved his crate into my office (from the kitchen) and now he likes to poop all over the kitchen AND my office. Not contained in the crate anymore. It's almost as if he's decided he doesn't need his litter boxes anymore--scary, because he's peeing SOMEwhere... maybe he's peeing in there but that's it?

So on the same topic, I would vacuum/sweep up his droppings every morning from the bottom of his crate, and he'd act a bit--agitated? Didn't seem angry, just like 'WTF are you doing? I MADE THOSE!'. Did I just do a horrible job litter box training, or do I just need to leave some droppings in the bottom of the crate (there's a big plastic tray at the bottom vs. wire) so he feels his territorial claim is being respected? I've been reading and researching, but I can't find any good answers, so thank you for your patience!

 

[JLMH]

Yes, I'd like to know what others say about the rabbit somehow protecting their droppings too! My Flemish has no problem with me cleaning out her home base crate every day. I vacuum it out when I change her litter. But, if she has dropped poop on the floor outside of her crate when she is roaming and I go to pick it up - usually with a tissue or paper towel - she will run over and try to nudge my hand out of the way or pull the paper towel out of my hand. It's so funny because she generally hops to her crate when she needs to go to the bathroom, but she seems protective in some way on the occasion she does poop outside of her crate. She never pees outside of her litter box.

 

[JBun]

Thanks so much for the replies I moved his crate into my office (from the kitchen) and now he likes to poop all over the kitchen AND my office. Not contained in the crate anymore. It's almost as if he's decided he doesn't need his litter boxes anymore--scary, because he's peeing SOMEwhere... maybe he's peeing in there but that's it?

So on the same topic, I would vacuum/sweep up his droppings every morning from the bottom of his crate, and he'd act a bit--agitated? Didn't seem angry, just like 'WTF are you doing? I MADE THOSE!'. Did I just do a horrible job litter box training, or do I just need to leave some droppings in the bottom of the crate (there's a big plastic tray at the bottom vs. wire) so he feels his territorial claim is being respected? I've been reading and researching, but I can't find any good answers, so thank you for your patience!

You've got a few things going on. First is that rabbits are considered litter trained when they consistently pee in their litter box. Their little poop balls are an entirely different matter. He's just at the right age for hormones to be starting, which means he'll naturally be driven to mark his territory. Rabbits don't leave their little balls everywhere because they don't know how to leave them in the litter box. It's him purposely leaving them to establish that as 'his' place, 'his' territory. But even fixed rabbits will mark territory with their poop balls, just usually not as excessively as when hormones are involved.

It's exactly the reason for your observations of him getting tiffed at you cleaning up his hard work, because he MEANT to leave those there to mark his territory, and now here you go scooping them up @JLMH this also likely applies to your rabbits behavior, leaving a little pile to mark her territory, and not wanting you removing it.

The other thing is that any time you change a rabbits area, meaning you move them to a new location, or even if you rearange things in their current area, or if new animals or people are brought into your home, this can cause a resurge of territorial marking. You moved him into the kitchen, so all new smells, all new territory, that needs his scent added to it. Usually this will subside after a few weeks, once the rabbit has settled into their new place and feels like they've firmly established it as 'theirs'. Though in still hormonal rabbits, this can vary, because of the hormones affecting their behavior.

With new rabbits you intend to free roam, to firmly establish their set area as 'theirs', so they don't think your whole house is 'theirs' and they can thus appropriately mark it, it's usually best to start off with keeping them in a set penned area, their 'home base'. Then once their litter habits are consistent(meaning their peeing in the litter box most of the time), gradually start expanding their space into an already bunny proofed area you intend to let them free roam in. Suddenly giving them the whole area and too much space at once, can be enought to set off territorial marking. It's the slow expansion that let's you be sure they continue to use their litter box, before you open it all up to them. Pet exercise pens are a good way to gradually expand territory.

https://rabbitsindoors.weebly.com/free-roaming-how-to.html
But the main thing working against getting this all working well, is those pesky hormones. A male rabbit, that might be absolutely perfect using the litter box before the hormones start, can become an absolute pig marking everything, including urine spraying, after hormones set in. And if you haven't yet experienced little droplets of urine spraying across your face and into your mouth, as he whips his butt around to spray and mark you, count yourself lucky : This is one BIG reason many pet male rabbits get the snip. Along with the fact that they often start trying to hump everything in sight, including you!

You may luck out and he'll be perfectly behaved with the humping and the urine spraying., and you won't have to worry about that, whether or not you decide to get him neutered when he's old enough, which is usually once both testicles descend, though being a flemmie, they take longer to mature fully, so I'm not sure what age exactly, a vet would want him to be to ahead and neuter.

Now, if your bun is consistently peeing in his litter box already, then he's considered litter trained. The poop marking may subside after a few weeks, but that just depends on how much of that is just his normal rabbit behavior and how much is hormones. What may help a little, since it bothers him that you're cleaning up his territorial markings, is to either distract him with something else(eg. like food) while you clean, or to make sure to leave a few behind so he doesn't feel like he needs to remark his space as much. It may or may not work, it does for some rabbits and not for others.

And to really improve litter habits and territorial marking, is to get him neutered when he's old enough. Though there's no guarantee this will fix it all, as some rabbits natural personalities are just to be messy pigs But most often it does cause significant improvements in a rabbits litter habits. Though it won't be immediate, as it can take anywhere from one to two months for the hormones to fully fade.

https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Spaying_and_neutering_rabbits
https://rabbit.org/vet-listings/
If he's not consistently peeing in the litter box, yes hormones are likely to affect this, but also litter box set up and placement can play a part. The right litter box, the right litter, a soft layer on top, where you place the litter box... all matters to the success of litter training. So if you're having issues, it might not just be hormones, but that his litter box, and it's placement, need tweeking.

https://rabbitsindoors.weebly.com/litter-training.html
https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Litter_training
Another thing I thought I'd mention, is bunny proofing. I can see he's snipped a charger cord in that first photo, and you mention him chewing cords in your home, so some bunny proofing is definitely needed, if it hasn't already been done. I also mention this because of the danger that it presents, to not only him, but to you and those in your home. Low voltage phone charger, not so much, but regular electric cords pose a huge risk if he is trying to chew through those. For the electricution risk, and also electric burns, but it also is a fire hazard, as frayed cords can cause a fire to start(happened to a past RO member). So, if you don't already have those cords sorted, I would strongly recommend not letting him free roam until you're able to get the area fully bunny proofed.

https://wabbitwiki.com/wiki/Bunny-proofing
https://rabbitsindoors.weebly.com/bunny-proofing.html
Poop marking... chewed through charging cords... welcome to the joys of bunny parenting

 

[abuccieri]

HAHAHA Ah such JOY! But truly, he really is awesome and these little growing pains are worth every second. Just gotta get better at being a bun mom!
I'm mid bunny-proofing the house. Mid, because just when I think I'm done, he finds something else he NEEDS to eat, chew, or dismantle. I bought a bunch of toys that are hit or miss. He's entertained for a while, but he's still obsessed with reaching my cable modem. All those flashing lights and tasty bits! (but honestly, obsessed with everything... as long as it's something he shouldn't have).

I figured he was marking his territory, and glad to hear it will potentially subside. He's right about that age to get neutered, so I'll call and plan ahead. I was going to try to see if we could go without and leave him in tact, but your stories of urine in the face and mouth just won me over Snippin' time it is!
He's incredibly sociable, curious, outgoing and confident, so if his hormones aren't evident yet I think I could be in for a real PAR-TAY.

THANK YOU so much for sharing all of those links. My house was built in 1794, so LOTS of tasty woodwork. My husband will have a conniption if he goes after the moulding--but I think it's a case of when vs. if. We love antiques, and came home from a vintage bazaar with this cool old wooden chick incubator that we were going to use as a little display or something. Until he decided it was tasty.

Off to buy some more cable covers! Definitely didn't buy enough the first time around...