Fat rabbits

[Happi Bun]

All my rabbits go crazy for pellets, it always amuses me. It's restricted and they think they are delicious, that is why. Just like our cats go bonkers for canned food or treats. On the topic of cats, one of ours just had a vet visit and was deemed overweight. Never had this problem with kitties before, he likes to eat. The vet's suggestion? Exercise more, limit food intake (within reason and health of course) and pick healthier choices. That seems to be the general advice when anything is overweight, not due to medical reasons.

It's important to remember the rabbit's digestive system is designed to consume mostly grasses and vegetable matter. It's also important to keep in mind Timothy Hay does have a fat and protein content. While both are low, it is going to add to the calorie count. I honestly do not see how adding more pellets to an overweight bunnies diet would be beneficial.

I do not limit my rabbits hay amount, but they do not have a never ending supply either. I do find empty hay racks and I then will fill them. They are not huge either, can fit a big handful of hay. These days they are not getting nightly salads either, more like weekly. I'm comfortable that the small amount of pellets they receive is enough to get what is needed nutritionally to be healthy and enough hay to keep their digestive track running smoothly. Anything more and I would probably have overweight bunnies.

Hope this is a bit helpful! I think with spoiled neutered indoor house bunnies keeping them a healthy weight can be difficult because they do not have to deal with the stresses of changes in weather/temperature, hormones from being intake, breeding and they are usually in a room humans have constant access to their adorable begging faces that have 'starving to death' written all over them.

 

[AngelnSnuffy]

Snuff is insane for them too, don't get me wrong! I'm gonna get a vid soon, I swear.:lookaround Crazy bunny! But usually you feed more hay, lol.

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

"It seems as if the some of the people who are consciously attempting to feed correctly are ending up with overweight rabbits.:?"

I know! This does seem confusing. As I kind of alluded to in my last post, I believe that this is because the information out there suggests a very grass/fiber heavy diet with very little protein, fat, and other vitamins and nutrients that come in pellets. The general warning out there on many sites is WARNING: Pellets cause obesity. So I'll try to take a step back and explain further-

It is true that in the wild, rabbits are on a heavy grass diet, mostly because that is all they have available to them. But we're seeing two drastically different results-

1. Thin, lean wild bunnies.
2. Overweight house bunnies.

And both on the same diet! Why is that?

Here, I want to bring in this comment to help out a bit-

"I think with spoiled neutered indoor house bunnies keeping them a healthy weight can be difficult because they do not have to deal with the stresses of changes in weather/temperature, hormones from being intake, breeding and they are usually in a room humans have constant access to their adorable begging faces that have 'starving to death' written all over them."

Now, if you consider the stressors on a wild bunny, they'd be unlimited. No shelter, limited food intake, risk of predators, etc. Wild rabbits are under a LOT of stress all the time.

Show or breeding rabbits are under very few stresses. They are in a safe place with no risk of predators, have a reliable source of food, and are often in climate controlled areas. When they're not under those circumstances, they are simply fed more and given more nutrition, but under normal circumstances, they live under and will require the same nutrient content as a house rabbit. House rabbits and breeding rabbits are not drastically different in their nutritional requirements.

However, wild rabbits are. It is clear that they are under a lot of stress so their diet must be VERY rich to sustain them, especially when they are constantly on the go and trying to keep some body condition while running all over everyday.

Is what I'm saying kind of starting to thread together now? Providing a diet more similar to wild rabbits to an altered, lazy (in relation) house rabbit will have very opposite effects for the house rabbit than to the wild rabbit.

I certainly understand the belief that a heavier grass diet could be more beneficial to our pet buns. But the truth is that there are also serious consequences to it. Under those circumstances, I see a lot more obesity in rabbits. I also hear about a significant number of gas, bloat, or blockage complications.

This does not tend to be the case in rabbits that are on a more "old-fashioned" diet. The recommended amount of alfalfa pellets (feeding timothy pellets has the same effect as feeding just timothy hay) is about 1/2 cup pellets per 5 lbs. body weight daily, which I believe evens out to something like 4-6 oz.? This, coupled with a handful or two of hay keeps most rabbits in great condition, like you've all noted on shelter rabbits.

I understand that opposite information is out there for pet rabbits, and some rabbits may do fine on that diet too. But I am a member of both worlds, I have pet house bunnies and breeding rabbits, and I belong to many forums and see a wide variety of diets offered. And through that experience, this is just the plan I've formulated myself. The claim that pellets are fattening and will cause obesity is a myth (unless fed unlimited amounts to a bored rabbit). But when you feed a limited supply of something and the animal is ravenous for it, it means that there is something missing from their diet that they are trying to fulfill through another food that provides it. That is just general knowledge. For example, you know how pregnant women have cravings? That's not just because they're crazy! It's because their body is lacking in something and instinctively craves a food that has it.

So I will end here, I think I've explained as thoroughly as I can without boring you. I'm sure many will discount this information as crazy, that's fine too. But for anyone who is interested or wants to learn more, please PM me about it, I'd love to help out. I understand that what you're reading elsewhere about pets totally conflicts and tells you that pellets will only make the problem worse....and actually, I am not here just to go on a rant about that. That's not my intention at all! I just think that your problem may be caused by an overall lack in nutrition requirements and that pellets may be a food that would alleviate those problems for you. Since our rabbits are not able to forage for what they need, our job is to provide it for them which may be done through a healthy pellet.

 

[fuzz16]

well i feed my holland and english bonded boys a cup a day...ya thats a lot i know but most ends up on the ground and never touched then. neither of them are overweight...the english lop could gain weight probably.

but my flemish giant who refuses to get up to even reach for a carrot and insists i cut it up for him and hand feed him is a fat fuzzy hippo of a man. he only gets 1/4 alfalfa pellets daily, treats consist of 1-5 cheerioes during out time. and unlimited brome/timothy hay. whichever bale i can get ahold of...he cant loose weight no matter what i do and i dont do veggies.

so im kinda in the same spot with not knowing how to cut him back..he needs to loose about 1.5lbs to get back to his -before his wifeys death- weight.

 

[Happi Bun]

I'm going to agree to disagree, as my experience is opposite. Many shelter rabbits I see could use more weight or are overweight. The ones at good shelters that provide a decent amount of daily hay, limited pellets, and proper exercise do not have overweight problems nearly as much. My point of mentioning a rabbits natural diet is while environmentally and in other ways they are very different, their digestive tract is the same. Hence my concern by the idea of feeding a more commercial diet.

It's no secret breeders and people with house rabbits have different views on diet. Despite the HRS's tries to get their opinions on a healthy indoor rabbit diet out there, many are still heavily fed a commercial diet because they just do not know, which is when I personally see a lot of the digestive problems. These days many people are aware about the plight of rescued rabbits as well and adopting said buns to be indoor companions. Past abuse and neglect can contribute to digestive upsets commonly seen.

My rabbits are not lacking or craving anything nutritionally. I have yet to have a digestive upset, yet they still go crazy for pellets. When you love the taste of something which is provided in limited amounts you are going to want it badly next time it comes around. The small amount of daily pellets given to my bunnies is enough to provide what they need nutritionally. I should mention they also go nuts over fresh hay.

 

[Happi Bun]

fuzz16 wrote:

well i feed my holland and english bonded boys a cup a day...ya thats a lot i know but most ends up on the ground and never touched then. neither of them are overweight...the english lop could gain weight probably.

but my flemish giant who refuses to get up to even reach for a carrot and insists i cut it up for him and hand feed him is a fat fuzzy hippo of a man. he only gets 1/4 alfalfa pellets daily, treats consist of 1-5 cheerioes during out time. and unlimited brome/timothy hay. whichever bale i can get ahold of...he cant loose weight no matter what i do and i dont do veggies.

so im kinda in the same spot with not knowing how to cut him back..he needs to loose about 1.5lbs to get back to his -before his wifeys death- weight.

Brenda, your flemish giant sounds lazy, which I mean in the nicest way possible.
First I would say if you are trying to get him to lose weight is to cut out all treats, so no more cherrios. That small amount of pellets aren't a problem. I would say bump up exercise to something that makes him really move. Rabbits are designed to be athletic and he's got it in him, just a matter of getting him motivated, which is something you have to get creative about. If you are still having trouble getting him to get a more suitable weight then you can always try to not feed unlimited hay like I do. I don't purposely limit hay supply but it's not never ending in a day. I would watch poops closely while doing this though and any change needs to be gradual.

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

That's ok, I will agree to disagree too.

I do have a question about this though-

Happi Bun wrote:

Despite the HRS's tries to get their opinions on a healthy indoor rabbit diet out there, many are still heavily fed a commercial diet because they just do not know, which is when I personally see a lot of the digestive problems.

What do you mean by commercial diet? I didn't know that feeding a commercial diet to pet rabbits is so common! I'm not sure where pet owners would get information to do that...commercial pellets are not generally sold in pet stores here.:confused2: Just feed mills, as far as I know.

 

[Happi Bun]

Commercial diet I mean as in commercially prepared/branded food, in other words pellets and treats. Although these days I guess hay is commercially made as well by brands like Oxbow and Kaytee. I wasn't meaning to include that though.

 

[Flick]

One cautionary note. Limiting the hay intake could cause dental problems. Chewing the hay helps to keep the teeth trimmed.

I'm not a fan of comparing wild rabbits to domestic rabbits. Pet rabbits have been domesticated for thousands of years, literally, as "meat rabbits" thereby "massaging" the gene pool toward being plump. Therefore it makes sense that a pet rabbit will be more likely to gain weight than a wild rabbit would.

All 4 of my rabbits have access to unlimited hay and get salads 2x per day and about a tablespoon of pumpkin seeds with their pellets every day.

Skyler is a 5 year old American Fuzzy Lop. In addition to the above he gets about a quarter cup of pellets per day. He seldom eats all of his fresh vegetables. And, because he is my "grumpy old man", he gets 1 raisin per day.

Stella and Parker are young adult Lionheads. Because of Stella's dental issues, she gets 2 tablespoons of a mush made from Critical Care & powdered Timothy pellets 3x per day. Because Parker is bonded with Stella, he also has access to the mush. They also get about a quarter cup of Timothy pellets 1x per day.

Honey is a middle age, if not elderly French Lop and is very sedentary. She gets the same as the other rabbits, except she gets more since she's 3x the other rabbits' sizes. I have recently begun giving her constant access to pellets to see if that would slow her down in eating them. She eats them so fast she chokes. So, I'm hoping that by making them more available the "treat" perception will dissipate and she'll slow down. Seems to be working, so far. I haven't heard that scary strangled cough since allowing her free access to pellets.

None of my rabbits are overweight. Parker is a little pudgy since he shares Stella's mush, but he is not fat. I will monitor Honey's weight to see if the constant access to pellets increases her weight.

I really think that domestic rabbits are prone to gaining weight due to the interference of the selective breeding they've undergone over the past few thousand years. I just happened to hit a balance that seems to be working with my 4 rabbits. If your rabbits are not candidates for the TV show "The Biggest Loser", don't worry too much about it. Do what's reasonable for your rabbits. Of course, if there's a sudden massive weight gain or loss, then vet check.

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

Oh, other than their hay which is locally grown, my rabbit's diet would be commercial then. My pets are ages 7, 8, and 9 and still going strong. They're not fed that because I "just do not know" though...it is a diet I choose because of their nutritional requirements, so it is healthy. Two are mixes, one is purebred, but they all thrive on a mix of pellets and hay with an occasional sprig of parsley as a treat. That's why I suggested it for the original poster since her rabbits seemed unhealthy on (what I assume is) the HRS suggested diet. But I don't actually know what they suggest, so I'm just guessing that was the goal originally.

 

[fuzz16]

Happi Bun wrote:

fuzz16 wrote:

well i feed my holland and english bonded boys a cup a day...ya thats a lot i know but most ends up on the ground and never touched then. neither of them are overweight...the english lop could gain weight probably.

but my flemish giant who refuses to get up to even reach for a carrot and insists i cut it up for him and hand feed him is a fat fuzzy hippo of a man. he only gets 1/4 alfalfa pellets daily, treats consist of 1-5 cheerioes during out time. and unlimited brome/timothy hay. whichever bale i can get ahold of...he cant loose weight no matter what i do and i dont do veggies.

so im kinda in the same spot with not knowing how to cut him back..he needs to loose about 1.5lbs to get back to his -before his wifeys death- weight.

Brenda, your flemish giant sounds lazy, which I mean in the nicest way possible.
First I would say if you are trying to get him to lose weight is to cut out all treats, so no more cherrios. That small amount of pellets aren't a problem. I would say bump up exercise to something that makes him really move. Rabbits are designed to be athletic and he's got it in him, just a matter of getting him motivated, which is something you have to get creative about. If you are still having trouble getting him to get a more suitable weight then you can always try to not feed unlimited hay like I do. I don't purposely limit hay supply but it's not never ending in a day. I would watch poops closely while doing this though and any change needs to be gradual.

hes still in mourning which is why just lazes about...its been a few months since she died but i think it hit him pretty bad. he didnt eat then gorged eating everything as fast as he could then got grumpy...so lack of excercise and weight gain is from loosing her as it started when she died. i have no idea how to bring him out of the slump to do anything, i spoil him thinking it might help with no luck...but i can cut out cheerios and hay and see if that helps...ill have to find some way to get him moving...tie a carrot to his tail.

 

[Flash Gordon]

i can get my buns moving in a couple dif ways..i talk and sing to them all the time..so when i say "silly bunny silly bunny silly bunny..(dont laugh)...they get spunky hearing that and end up popcorning all over the place... i also play chase with them...i know alot of buns dont like this but i have a few that get so excited and wiggle their tail and binky while i chase them....petunia is a blast to play with too .when i tap my hands in front of her or slide them back and forth on the floor..she very loudly grunts and shoots straight up in the air and lands in the same spot...like a pogo stick...but if she wants to stop playing she tells me by grabbing my hand with her teeth...not biting ..just grabbing me..it gets the point across...
i also put a pretty long cardboard tunnel or two in their play area cuz they absolutely LOVE tunnels..they haul butt thru those things...if i take the tunnels out my buns just lay around or try and bug their neighbor thru the bars..

one of their tunnels is a huge one for kids to play in.it hooks to a tent or something..they really enjoy that one..
i have some really kewl tunnels that ive made too ill have to post some pics ..


i know everybody keeps talkin bout food being the weight issue...i really think excercise is gonna help alot....ive noticed that if i dont push my buns to move they do absolutely NOTHING all day ..the only reason why they get up most of the time is to poop.or eat..and most of that stuff is within inches of where they are laying...why are they fat...?? cuz they fall into a lazy routine....aint no way a couple of feet inside their cage or xpens is enough room to excercise...they need to run and do backflips and cartwheels....whatever u get my drift..

my retarded bunny (i say that with love)Angel is on the thin side...its cuz she DEMANDS to be let out everyday...none of my other buns do..she paces and bites the cage and does laps around her cage just to tell me she wants out..as soon as i let her out she hauls butt around and around and around the huge xpen numerous laps ...i mean 15 fast laps...its crazy to see her get so wild...she goes none stop during her exercise time ..1-3 hrs depending on the day...then she goes in her cage and flops hard and she is hard to wake up ..i can shake her and she is still asleep...yea trippy...then she wakes up very slowly....like shes snockered...i really think she runs herself ragged when she plays ..but she is very lean ...no fat on her at all cuz she EXERCISES....!!she has a splay leg too and that doesnt slow her down.so no excuses for ur buns..if my retarded bunny with a gimp leg can boogie so can they....
:weee:

Brenda give ur giant a squish from me...breaks my heart to hear about a bun that mourns their mate....he needs more momma time right now

 

[Acacia-Berry]

Lots to think about here. I do not like to compare domestic bunnies to wild bunnies, there really is not much comparison left- dogs and wolves are separate for a reason too. I do not think a bunny should ever be denied hay! Alfalfa should only be given to young, old and sick bunnies because it is high in calcium. So hay should consist of good quality timothy, oat, botanical, meadow etc. . . Bunnies need a constant supply to keep their guts in motion, to satisfy hunger, to keep teeth trim and because they love to do it! If hay is causing the problem then its time to find a better quality hay.

When I obtained Akina from her old home I was given a garbage bag of hay from a farm. Akina was grossly overweight and it was then that I began looking into diet. My guess is that the mystery hay was not only stale but it was from garden grass. Akina had a tooth surgically removed, and abscesses the whole time I had her. I blame this on bad diet. So although they can have a bad start on bad hay/grass there is always the potential for tooth problems. Once I changed her hay and limited her pellets (which were from a bag found in Wal Mart under no particular brand name and was bursting in calcium, fat,grains and sugar) she put weight down. I also increased her exercise because even though she had full roam of a bedroom there was no stimulation in there for her except a phone book and a cage of 6-7 rats. Mental and physical stimulation was provided via voice interaction, colorful toys, a harness and outdoors trips and a new NIC cage with litter box and rattles and blankets and things every spoiled bunny should have!
Cage time is not always stimulating and even though a bunny may be mourning (Dont quote me on this bc I never dealt with a bonded pair) he needs to be shown that life is still full of adventure and fun! Harnes him up and take him outside.
Bunnies are capable of growing extra coats for the winter so gradually get bunny used to a harness and going outside and he should not be cold. Outside has fresh air, new smells and wonderful explorative potential! If that does not get bunny moving then nothing will! Even my shy Acacia explores and nibbles grass outside.
Hay should never be limited, pellets should never be alfalfa unless sick, old or young and a bunny should always have exercise. Whoever said they have too many rabbits to let out for exercise? Um, I'm sorry but I have strong feelings towards that. There is such thing as hoarding and as one obtains too many animals to properly care for (exercise and stimulation included) needs a wake up call. I personally knew hoarders (one of cats, one of rats) and while they think they're saving these animals they do not realize they are neglecting critical needs. (I apologize if I am missing some crucial information or a good reason why bunnies are not allowed out or whatever).
Also, bunnies are nocturnal and will use their energy mostly at night. Obviously, as we all know with bunnies this is totally untrue for many. But my bunny is most active at night and hence, boxes and toys are made for her to explore at night while I enclose her in her pen. Bunnies, like cats, will show made random bursts or energy and play during the day but then rest. It's all normal.
Fat bunnies is not normal and if you have them weighed and they are, in fact, overweight then you only need to diet them if they are having trouble eating their cecotropes.

 

[FogCity]

This question is similar so I thought I would post it here..I am interested in moving my rabbits away from pellets and onto other things such as weeks, grass etc. How do I do this? How much should I feed them ( percent wise, how much should I reduce it) as I do this, any tips would help. Is this even possible with all breeds. I figure I will start with one breed and see how it goes. Could be English Spot or Flemish.
David

 

[Flash Gordon]

ignore this empty box....this would be my first rodeo.

 

[Flick]

FogCity wrote:

This question is similar so I thought I would post it here..I am interested in moving my rabbits away from pellets and onto other things such as weeks, grass etc.  How do I do this?  How much should I feed them ( percent wise, how much should I reduce it) as I do this, any tips would help.  Is this even possible with all breeds.  I figure I will start with one breed and see how it goes.  Could be English Spot or Flemish.
David

Change a rabbit's diet very slowly. Otherwise the rabbit is likely to develop painful gas which can lead to the digestive tract shutting down (stasis). Breed doesn't matter. I would start by feeding the pellets as you regularly do, but add one new food at a time. If you see soft poops, diarrhea, or symptoms of gas, discontinue the new food item. If the new food appears to be okay for 5 - 7 days, then you can add another new food. Do not add more than 1 new food at a time so you can know for sure which foods are good and which cause trouble. As you increase the food items, you can gradually decrease the pellets.

There is no real percentage formula that I'm aware of. It's a matter of knowing your rabbit. Yep, he's doing fine, or Nope, he seems less active than usual.

The main point is to make it a very slow change over a month or more. Flooding the rabbit's digestive system with a bunch of new foods is a formula for disaster.

How much you should feed your rabbit depends on your rabbit. Larger breeds need more food than smaller. Younger needs more than older. Energetic needs more than sedentary. Give them what you think is a reasonable amount and monitor it. If they leave half or more of it uneaten, then decrease the amount. If they eat all of it ASAP, increase the amount somewhat.

Also, be aware that different rabbits have different eating "patterns". My rabbit, Honey, eats everything pretty quickly. Skyler, may wait several hours before he eats his vegetables, but he still wants them available at the same time every day. Parker and Stella will eat all of their mush, and nibble on the veggies all day.

It would be much easier on us caretakers if there was one right answer for every rabbit in every situation, but there isn't. The closest to "one right answer" is to make any changes very very slowly.

 

[OakRidgeRabbits]

Acacia-Berry wrote:

Hay should never be limited, pellets should never be alfalfa unless sick, old or young and a bunny should always have exercise.

Hay intake should be monitored, just like any food. If hay intake is interfering with the rabbit getting the nutrients it needs from its other food, it may need to be limited. Some rabbits are huge hay eaters and will fill up on hay but will not get all of the other nutrients they need. Most hays are not an all-inclusive diet for domestic rabbits.

Alfalfa pellets are also an acceptable diet for any age when they are fed correctly.

 

[Acacia-Berry]

The only time I ever had a problem with hay intake was when I was dieting Akina. She favoured the full bodied taste of good hay for the first time and could not get enough! Then I gave her good pellets and she developed a wicked taste for those too. I guess through my own experience I never had a bunny that refused other foods besides hay and I have talked to a few bunny owners in my town (A friend of mine acquired one off her cousin and had NO idea what to do) who figured if something is marketed in a store for bunnies it MUST be good for them. She, and many other people, feed alfalfa pellets with colorful seeds and garbage unlimited bc they think its how its done. I apologize if sometimes I have a strong attitude towards basic things that I've tired myself talking to local idiots on.
Thanks for your added imput OakRidge, With the alfalfa pellets most people I know dump in a cup or so to fill the bowl every time they see it empty and this bothers me so I always stave off the alfalfa altogether!!

 

[Maureen Las]

I have been thinking about this all of this :confused2:

One of my rabbits is not overweight . Penn is a middle aged mini-lop who is bonded with a middle aged harlequin, Daisy . Penn never stops moving. They live in a huge x-pen with boxes, baskets and toys. Penn is constantly doing something whereas Daisy is more sedentary. Daisy is slightly overweight ; Penn is normal weight.


My heaviest rabbit is Rudy who is an older rabbit. he was heavy as an adult when I adopted him in 2005; he really likes to eat. He has no interest in moving unless he is outside in the yard. I had a thread about him awhile back. He seems like a bun with minimal personality when he is in the house but if he is allowed in the yard he comes "alive' and everything about his demeanor changes. Because of the hot humid insect laden summers here and the brutally cold winters his only outside times are in the spring and mostly in the fall. The only way that I have ever got weight off him is to take him outside periodically about every other day . When he is inside again during the off seasons he gains the weight back. he is most likely overweight because he is so inactive in the house.

I tend to agree with the idea that our indoor rabbits live stress free lives and often do not get enough exercise. I really hesitate to begin active "play times"

with my other older rabbits because I am afraid that it would stress them .; they aren't used to me getting in and encouraging them to play and run although they are used to getting petted.

I seldom have had bunnies from the time they were babies because I have adopted mainly adults from my shelter. Last summer, however, I rescued 2 brother (8 week old chinchilla rabbits) from a fair.

I free fed them alfalfa pellets and gave them both alfalfa and timothy hay and by 6-7 months old they were both getting pudgy.

I thought free feeding at that age was the correct thing to do. :?

Now they are on timothy hay and measured pellets like the others.

I actually may underfeed pellets and overfeed hay .... none of my rabbits gets even 1/4 cup pellets per day.
I feed Oxbow timothy hay and the quality of the hay has been excellent.
I have lots to think about but I really do think that exercise is probably the key to this ..

I do think that sometimes we read certain sites ( like HRS )and then take "the rules" and apply them very stringently

Icertainly thought that alfalfa pellets were 'bad" until Randy (wildlife rehabber and RO mod ra7751) pointed out that pellets should only be a small portion of the diet and because of that it really doesn't make any difference.

I think that some of us who have had rabbits a long time and know rabbits well could do a litte experimenting with "the rules" to see if our rabbits seem healthier if we tweak things here and there

 

[Purple Mountain Rabbitry]

None of mine are overweight and I free feed my pellets and don't givea ton of hay i give like handfull, I give them wood, pine cones, tp rolls, and toys to chew on. if they are flling up on hay then they aren't getting the nutrients they need from their pellets which they need to balance everything out. they only get vegies when I have them available. pellets are a ration of things bunnies need and if they aren't getting enough then it can cause them to have problems like with their weight. do you guys supply salt blocks. bunnies have thyroids like us and if they don't get enough salt then their thyroids aren't getting enough iodine so it doesn't function right which can also cause problems with being overwieght.

just a thought. but have any of you thought about Rangen rabbit feed. I get a 50 lb bag for $11.50 w/ 4h dicount and $12.50 w/o 4H discount I have 20 bunnies including 7 kits who are eating pellets now and will have 6 more kits starting to eat soon. I can't imagine spending $17 on a 10 lb bag thats ridiculous (a rip off IMGHO) when I have something just as good as I have compared labels, IMO Rangen is sooo much better it smell alot better and is cheaper. You may diagreeand thats finethats just my .2 and MO

Crystal