EC suspected, need help with urine scald!

[Maureen Las]

Randy and i posted at the same time

 

[bunnymommy76]

Hmm,I got to thinking about that myself last night, the fact that he has a urinary infection but no bacteria in his urine. All she said was that his urine was dilute and had a lot of crystals, a high calcuim level.

I had to go to the vet to pick up his meds anyway so I asked to talk to her a minute. She said that if the infection was in his kidneys it may not always show up with urinalysis, but it is showing up in his bloodstream. I also talked to her about the lixotinic and she agreed to let me give him B comp injections on my own. That's good because I really didn't want him taking that lixotinic. As for the Baytril, I guess we are going to try it for now, he is on a very high dosage twice a day, if it doesn't seem to help I still have pennicillin from when he had his abcess that we can try.

If he did have EC would it raise his WBC?

I hope he starts to feeling better, the thing that is questioning me now is why his calcuim level is so high? For the most part his diet consist of Red Leaf, Green Leaf and Romaine, and oxbow timothy pellets (only 1/8 of a cup) I did switch his hay, I wonder if this hay has more calcuim?, I will have to do some research.

The thing that also crossed my mind was if he had bladder stones, but we did an x-ray and his bladder was completly clear. I am at a loss. I just want him to feel better again!

 

[ra7751]

Few thoughts on your last post. First....how does your vet know the crystals are calcium? Only way to know for sure about blood calcium is that CBC...and since rabbits do metabolize calcium in such a different way, most vets will misidentify crystals in the urine. But I think I mentioned that since most vets have never really seen a case of active EC.....they will misdiagnose a urinary tract infection based on traditional clincial presentations. And if you look at things the way most doctors would (including humans patients)....if you show pain in the lower abdomen/legs along with a concentrated urine with what appears to be crystals....you would assume a UTI. The initial presentations of EC will mimic a UTI. No intent to discredit the vet here....things like this are not something usually seen by most vets. Currently of all my vets, I can count the number of them on one hand that has actually seen a real EC infection.

Much of the information you will find on calcium levels and urine are old school. Just like with people, it appears that the calcium levels of the food aren't so important but it's individual metabolism that causes calcification problems....and I do know something about that as I have little friends called kidney stones myself...such fun. In our first EC bun, it appeared his calcium level was too high as he had bladder sludge and ongoing urinary issues. Our water (well water) has high mineral content. It hit me one night as I noticed the crud on one of my aquariums looked just like the stuff in his urine. I switched to bottled water of known mineral content (not distilled water as they do need some minerals) but that water change took care of that.

EC will not directly increase white blood count....but since it does compromise the immune system it usually allows tag along bacterial infections that will raise the white count.

And some infections are caused by anaerobic bacteria....and obligate anaerobes will die when they come in contact with oxygen. If it gets down to it....there is a culture called a cystocentesis. It involves inserting a needle thru the abdominal walls and pull a pure urine sample directly from the bladder for urinalysis. I still have serious doubts as to the benefits of the Baytril (and Baytril has no effect on either faculative or obligate anaerobes) but my fingers are crossed for you. I would suggest talking to your vet about using Convenia if the Baytril fails. Just a word of caution....very few vets have used Convenia as it was just approved for dog and cat use in the US. They may have to do some research and find the few vets that have used it. So far I have used in in wild and domestic rabbits and squirrels....and one of my volunteer vets has used it in domestic rabbits and guinea pigs.

A couple of suggestions based on my experience...keep the hydration levels up..by supplemental means (sub-q is easiest) if necessary. Ask your vet to teach you how and when to administer fluids. After you master the "drip" method, I can teach you how to "push" the fluids for faster treatment. The supplies needed are quite inexpensive. And keep in mind that there can be too much of a good thing. That is true with fluids. It is also very true with the B Comp. Do not overdo the B vitamins. I normally do no more than one injection every two weeks and preferably it's no more than once a month. It's a remarkably small amount for mammals (birds get ten times the mammal dosage).

Randy

 

[thresp]

I've beengoing through the same thing with my Spike these past few months where large tufts of fur have been falling off. I went to my local fabric store and bought yards of "berber fleece" which I fold into 4 layers and put in his litterbox instead of litter, and also anywhere he lays down on the floor. The urine goes right through the fleece and is absorbed into another pad (or blanket) I have underneath so bunny stays dry. (I put a plastic table cloth at the very bottom to protect floors). It's been a real life saver!!

 

[bunnymommy76]

Wow, my doctor told me to give him a B comp injection everyday for 10 days!!! I don't think I want to give it so often after hearing randys dosage!

 

[ra7751]

Umm....every day? Just my non-professional opinion....but ain't no way. Send me your rabbit's weight and the concentration of the drug....and I will formulate the dosing for you....and let me know what your vet prescribed. If you have the bottle of vitamin, I need to know that concentration of Thiamine. This vitamin comes in many different concentrations....I have 100 mg/ml and oddly enough, my vet uses 12.5 mg/ml....and I have seen all sorts of concentrations.

Randy

 

[bunnymommy76]

I dont have any of that info, the vet just put it in a little vile for me from their huge bottle. All it says on the bottle they gave me is Vitamin B complex, give .5cc once a day for 10 days. He weighs about 4lbs 4oz. I haven't been giving it to him everyday, I gave it to him once on saturday, I guess I was waiting to see your opinion.

 

[bunnymommy76]

Just a little update on Pidge...

He finished the baytril and oxibendazole and had blood drawn again. His white blood cells were in the normal range now, but she said that he is anemic now, his red blood cells are low. She also said that hispotassuim was also low. So again I ask, could he have EC? The vet has never come out and said he actually had it. He had a titer test and she said that his numbers were on the low end, and that it could have just been exposure to it.

I don't understand, why is he still peeing everywhere (not using litter box at all), and now he's anemic! She told me to just continue the Vit B injections every 2 weeks and give him some spinach to increse vitamins.

Anyone have any thoughts or advice? I don't know what to do with him anymore, I feel so helpless. Thankfully his urine scald is A LOT better.

Julie and Pidgers

 

[Flashy]

Is there any chance he is bleeding in his urine but its not visible to the eye? Has he been checked for kidney/bladder stones?

 

[bunnymommy76]

Yeah, he was checked for stones. I guess the best thing to do right now is to have another titer to see if anything changed. I just feel like I should be doing more for him.